What IDE are you using?

[typingcat]

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 05:59:

Oli Filth wrote:

Check back through your messages. You indicated one of the best
reasons to use an IDE is for the autocompletion (or hints) for function.

However, not in this part of the thread - I was instead talking about
navigating the source code itself, with class views and associated tools.

This thread is about using IDE's.

I'm saying this is bogus - proper documentation replaces the need.

See the argument below...

With a decent Java IDE, they are - you press F1 (or Ctrl+F1, or
whatever), and you land straight on the documentation of the
class/method/variable in question.

Ah, another IDE - Java this time!

With Windows help files, you don't NEED an IDE!

Yes, I know that! And with HTML documentation, you don't need chm files;
and with a hard-copy manual, you don't need HTML documentation; we could
go on...

But HTML documentation cannot be as easily searched and indexed,
especially if it's on an intranet.
By the logic of your argument, you should be using Notepad to do your
coding!

Actually, I use TextPad for a lot of it.
The point is that pressing a single button (for me at least), is much
quicker and less distracting than pressing Alt+Tab, making sure the
caret is in the search box, typing the function name, selecting the
correct option, reading the definition in the help-file, temporarily
memorising it (or copy-pasting it), and then pressing Alt+Tab to get
back to the editor and then typing it in.

OK, to each his own. I would rather have the help files separate.

And BTW - generally I don't do Alt+Tab plus whatever. Most of the time
I have the help files up on a second computer and just switch keyboards.
(Feel free to insert your own key combo instead of Alt+Tab!)

And BTW - this is a PHP newsgroup, not a Java newsgroup.

Indeed, however this thread has become more generalised and seems to be
about IDEs in general...

You've tried to make it that way, true. But this is about PHP IDE's.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Jacob Atzen wrote:

On 2005-10-27, Jerry Stuckle <js*******@attg lobal.net> wrote:

I learned about project management when I was working for IBM back in
the 80's. Since then I've been both a programmer and a PM. When I've
been a PM, the documentation is complete long before programming starts
(and yes, I get the programmers involved in the design). And I've been
a programmer on projects where the design is done properly. Every one
was completed on time and within budget, given reasonable time and
budgetary constraints. And change orders were handled by modifying the
design - which showed exactly how it would affect other parts of the
project.

That sounds impressive and quite contrary to most testimonials I've ever
read. And quite opposite of the whole agile movement. How are you able
to design everything up front? What methods do you use? I find it very
hard to contain a complete design and anticipating all the problems that
always show up?

Practice, Practice, Practice.

Just like you do when you're programming. Start with large blocks.
Break each large block down into smaller blocks. Keep going until you
have real little blocks :-).

Seriously - it is an art, and takes a lot of experience to do it well.
I can't say I'm great at it - there are much better designers out there
than I am. But I get along OK.

But you do take the project and break it up into functional parts.
Figure out what each part has to do (functionality) and what it needs to
do its job (interaction).

You won't go through it once and get everything exactly right. It's a
repetitive effort - you'll miss things the first time around and have to
add them the second time around. Keep going until you're fairly
comfortable with the design.

Even after programming starts you'll find problems in the design you
didn't see before - and/or the customer will change the requirements.
The advantage here is - when this happens, you can determine what you
need to change - and know EXACTLY what that will affect. Additionally,
you can estimate how much it will affect your project schedule - for
instance, a change to code that hasn't been written yet will probably
have a minor affect on the schedule. But if it requires major changes
to large parts of the code (less likely with good a good OO design), you
can estimate how much more time it will add to the project.

I find it easier to do with OO programming; there is less interaction
between objects than in functional programming. The isolation makes
things much easier.

Normally I start with the user interface and work back from there. If
it must interact with an existing database, of course I need to take
that into consideration. Otherwise the database is one of the last
things defined. Other people do it differently.

But it does take practice! And the more you do it, the better you'll be
at it.
--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 18:16:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Oli Filth wrote:

> Jerry Stuckle said the following on 26/10/2005 02:55:
>

And why wade through all the doc? It's quite easy to make the doc a
Windows help file, and everything is right there. Or, if you wish,
make it a series of HTML pages, although that isn't as easy to search.

Google, HtDig, et. al. would disagree with you!

Let's see Google work on my intranet.

http://www.google-store.com/applianc...?products_id=1

Yours for just $2,995!

Windows help compiler - $0.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Gary L. Burnore]

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:16:23 -0500, Jerry Stuckle
<js*******@attg lobal.net> wrote:

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 05:59:

Oli Filth wrote:
Check back through your messages. You indicated one of the best
reasons to use an IDE is for the autocompletion (or hints) for function.

However, not in this part of the thread - I was instead talking about
navigating the source code itself, with class views and associated tools.

This thread is about using IDE's.

I'm saying this is bogus - proper documentation replaces the need.

See the argument below...

With a decent Java IDE, they are - you press F1 (or Ctrl+F1, or
whatever), and you land straight on the documentation of the
class/method/variable in question.
Ah, another IDE - Java this time!

With Windows help files, you don't NEED an IDE!

Yes, I know that! And with HTML documentation, you don't need chm files;
and with a hard-copy manual, you don't need HTML documentation; we could
go on...

But HTML documentation cannot be as easily searched and indexed,
especially if it's on an intranet.

Sure it can. Ever see the docs for Perl?

By the logic of your argument, you should be using Notepad to do your
coding!

Actually, I use TextPad for a lot of it.

Yep. That's a good tool. So too is vim.

The point is that pressing a single button (for me at least), is much
quicker and less distracting than pressing Alt+Tab, making sure the
caret is in the search box, typing the function name, selecting the
correct option, reading the definition in the help-file, temporarily
memorising it (or copy-pasting it), and then pressing Alt+Tab to get
back to the editor and then typing it in.

OK, to each his own. I would rather have the help files separate.

And BTW - generally I don't do Alt+Tab plus whatever. Most of the time
I have the help files up on a second computer and just switch keyboards.

I use two monitors, one cpu.

(Feel free to insert your own key combo instead of Alt+Tab!)

And BTW - this is a PHP newsgroup, not a Java newsgroup.

Indeed, however this thread has become more generalised and seems to be
about IDEs in general...

You've tried to make it that way, true. But this is about PHP IDE's.

Komodo!
--
gburnore at DataBasix dot Com
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[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Google, HtDig, et. al. would disagree with you!

Let's see Google work on my intranet.

See http://www.google.com/webmasters/. As for being able to get into
your Intranet I believe you can also purchase a Google Search Engine
Appliance. If price is an issue I see you conveniently neglected both
HtDig and "et. al.". IOW there are options but you refuse to explore them.

No, I don't refuse to explore them. They're there; they work OK. But
HTML still isn't as good as Windows help files.

Once you have the hang of it, Windows help files are very easy to
create!

Yeah then try browsing that Windows help file on your Linux
workstation...

So? I don't use Linux workstations. Windows workstations hooked to a
Linux server.

Typical Windows Tunnel Vision. Granted *you* use Windows. But not
everybody does! And you take the attitude of screw anybody else but me.

See, that's the difference between you and me.

I'm telling you HOW I WORK AND WHAT I USE. Unlike you, I AM NOT TELLING
YOU WHAT TO USE!

You keep telling me I should be using IDE's, HTML help files, etc.
Wrong, wrong, wrong! I use what is best for me and on my projects.

No, it's not "Windows tunnel vision". It's what *I* use. You use
whatever you want.
--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Oli Filth]

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 22:16:

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 05:59:

Oli Filth wrote:
Check back through your messages. You indicated one of the best
reasons to use an IDE is for the autocompletion (or hints) for function.

However, not in this part of the thread - I was instead talking about
navigating the source code itself, with class views and associated tools.

This thread is about using IDE's.

If you original point was actually related to a different branch of this
thread, you should've posted it as a reply in that branch, not a
completely unrelated branch...

With a decent Java IDE, they are - you press F1 (or Ctrl+F1, or
whatever), and you land straight on the documentation of the
class/method/variable in question.

With Windows help files, you don't NEED an IDE!

Yes, I know that! And with HTML documentation, you don't need chm
files; and with a hard-copy manual, you don't need HTML documentation;
we could go on...

But HTML documentation cannot be as easily searched and indexed,
especially if it's on an intranet.

Exactly - each "level" (hard-copy => HTML => CHM => "integrated " help)
adds a new layer of functionality. Context-sensitive help is the logical
conclusion of that progression.

And BTW - this is a PHP newsgroup, not a Java newsgroup.

Indeed, however this thread has become more generalised and seems to
be about IDEs in general...

You've tried to make it that way, true. But this is about PHP IDE's.

Actually I didn't - the OP asked about PHP IDEs, which led onto a
discussion about the pros/cons of IDEs, which then led onto a discussion
about the supposed pros/cons of IDEs in general - the discussion diverged.
--
Oli

[Andrew DeFaria]

Oli Filth wrote:

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 27/10/2005 20:06:

Oli Filth wrote:

Well, VS (my IDE of choice for C/C++/C# as you've probably gathered)
can do pretty much all of those things (save the multiple language
things). Can't speak for all IDEs, though.
Maybe. Let's review. How much disk and memory space does VS take? How
much does it cost?

<Runs away, attempting to ignore the cost issue...>

Exactly...! Have you seen my personal software budget? Any guesses?

Really? So I can go into MS VS at work and then poke through the
firewall to edit machines on my Linux box at home through DSL or
some random box in England? Somehow I don't think I could...

If it's FTP access, you probably can. I dunno about SSH.

OK. Let's test it. From the IDE edit the file
ftp://defaria.com/testfile.txt. It's available via anonymous ftp.

Interestingly, VS 6 can open it, whereas VS .NET can't. It's probably
trying to hook to it to monitor external changes, and failing, so
gives up.

So then why didn't you actually edit it? It has the same contents as
what I originally put there. Now change it. No cheating either by
downloading it, updating it and uploading it in steps - do it directly
from the editor...
As for editing, my mistake - in my head I was combining the Windows
filesystem abstraction (i.e. being able to open files from FTP like
they were in a local directory), with VS's facility to manage and
synchronise projects on a web server.

Hmmm... That didn't exactly parse for me. Can you or can't you edit
ftp://defaria.com/testfile.txt from your IDE?

> Whilst "think before you type" is a virtue I attempt to adhere to,
> doesn't *always* work in practice.

Well I've had the same problem and still do on occasion. But I
actively worked on it. Another concept I employ (usually) is the
silly and stupid concept of checking what I typed *before* I hit
the send button. I'll do it here to.

^
^
I think this may be irony epitomised!!

Not quite sure what you are stating here.

Your choice of homonym for "too" - i.e. I'll do it here *too*. ;)

Ah, I got another one for that! Ode to Spell Checker
<https://defaria.com/Jokes/OdeToSpellCheck er.php>

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

But HTML documentation cannot be as easily searched and indexed,
especially if it's on an intranet.
Ah but they surely can, easily and cheaply with HtDig.
And BTW - generally I don't do Alt+Tab plus whatever. Most of the
time I have the help files up on a second computer and just switch
keyboards.

Ah now that's convenient! :-)

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

No, I don't refuse to explore them. They're there; they work OK. But
HTML still isn't as good as Windows help files.
Really? How so? Tell me when you need to research some random odd topic
do you use Google or do you use some sort of all inclusive Windows help
file?

(Reminds me of the adage: When all you have is a hammer then every
problem looks like a nail!)

> Once you have the hang of it, Windows help files are very easy to
> create!

Yeah then try browsing that Windows help file on your Linux
workstation...

So? I don't use Linux workstations. Windows workstations hooked to
a Linux server.

Typical Windows Tunnel Vision. Granted *you* use Windows. But not
everybody does! And you take the attitude of screw anybody else but me.

See, that's the difference between you and me.

I'm telling you HOW I WORK AND WHAT I USE. Unlike you, I AM NOT
TELLING YOU WHAT TO USE!

I'm telling you how to play nice with others. If all you ever do is
create code in isolation and never in a group use any damn thing you
want. But when you have the attitude of "this is how I work - works for
me - and who gives a rat's ass about my coworker who is working on the
same app, needs the same documentation but doesn't use Windows" then I
have a problem with it.
You keep telling me I should be using IDE's, HTML help files, etc.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Yes, wrong, wrong, wrong as in *you are wrong!!!* I didn't tell you do
use an IDE. I'm the guy saying IDEs are not that good. Remember?
I use what is best for me and on my projects.
Then you must work in isolation. But if you want to work with others you
should at least show a little sensitivity to the fact that they have
different requirements, needs and desires and you should strive to use
technologies that benefit all equally.
No, it's not "Windows tunnel vision". It's what *I* use. You use
whatever you want.

Of course it's a Windows tunnel vision issue. You have be seduced by
"It's my PC and I do what I want with it - others be damned". Hey I have
no problem with that. Just that you might as well unplug from the
network and go off to your corner with your machine and code your
projects. Most of the rest of us want to participate in jointly
developed, collaborative work. As such we need common ground not "you do
it your way and I'll do it mine" (That is unless you can assure that
both ways will work by using some common standard...)

[Jerry Stuckle]

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 22:16:

This thread is about using IDE's.

If you original point was actually related to a different branch of this
thread, you should've posted it as a reply in that branch, not a
completely unrelated branch...

No, my original point was related to the original part of this thread.
You're trying to change that.

But HTML documentation cannot be as easily searched and indexed,
especially if it's on an intranet.

Exactly - each "level" (hard-copy => HTML => CHM => "integrated " help)
adds a new layer of functionality. Context-sensitive help is the logical
conclusion of that progression.

Yep - and each level brings a new layer of complexity.
Context-sensitive help is not always needed - unless you're lazy or
incompetent.

You've tried to make it that way, true. But this is about PHP IDE's.

Actually I didn't - the OP asked about PHP IDEs, which led onto a
discussion about the pros/cons of IDEs, which then led onto a discussion
about the supposed pros/cons of IDEs in general - the discussion diverged.

Yep. You have tried to make this discussion diverge. I've *always*
been talking about PHP IDE's. You're the one who keeps trying to change
the subject.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===