What IDE are you using?

[typingcat]

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Ah that would be wonderful. But in my some 25 years in the business I
don't think I've ever actually seen that in practice! Then again I do
more admin/build/release stuff... (And surprisingly enough, even at that
late stage of the game, rarely do I see design docs that go to the level
of defining function names and parameters... Sad but true)

Then you're Project Manager is not managing the project properly.

I learned about project management when I was working for IBM back in
the 80's. Since then I've been both a programmer and a PM. When I've
been a PM, the documentation is complete long before programming starts
(and yes, I get the programmers involved in the design). And I've been
a programmer on projects where the design is done properly. Every one
was completed on time and within budget, given reasonable time and
budgetary constraints. And change orders were handled by modifying the
design - which showed exactly how it would affect other parts of the
project.

I've also worked on ones where PM wasn't properly done. Some were on
time, but most were late. They also had more bugs and change orders
were harder to implement.

Of course, if you don't design the application and fly by the seat of
your pants, that's another story.

In my line of work I'm forced to do that all the time...

I've heard that before. But all but the smallest projects benefit from
a proper design.
--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 26/10/2005 02:55:

Notice that I was referring to jumping to *implementation *, not
*doucmentation* ...

But either way, wading through documentation to find something when
you could just press a button???

But Documentation should be completed BEFORE Implementation!

And why wade through all the doc? It's quite easy to make the doc a
Windows help file, and everything is right there. Or, if you wish,
make it a series of HTML pages, although that isn't as easy to search.

Google, HtDig, et. al. would disagree with you!

Let's see Google work on my intranet.

Once you have the hang of it, Windows help files are very easy to create!

Yeah then try browsing that Windows help file on your Linux workstation...

So? I don't use Linux workstations. Windows workstations hooked to a
Linux server.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jacob Atzen]

On 2005-10-27, Jerry Stuckle <js*******@attg lobal.net> wrote:

I learned about project management when I was working for IBM back in
the 80's. Since then I've been both a programmer and a PM. When I've
been a PM, the documentation is complete long before programming starts
(and yes, I get the programmers involved in the design). And I've been
a programmer on projects where the design is done properly. Every one
was completed on time and within budget, given reasonable time and
budgetary constraints. And change orders were handled by modifying the
design - which showed exactly how it would affect other parts of the
project.

That sounds impressive and quite contrary to most testimonials I've ever
read. And quite opposite of the whole agile movement. How are you able
to design everything up front? What methods do you use? I find it very
hard to contain a complete design and anticipating all the problems that
always show up?

--
Cheers,
- Jacob Atzen

[Oli Filth]

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 05:59:

Oli Filth wrote:

If the documentation is completed (read DESIGN DOC), then the
function names parameters and return values can be documented
Yes... and? I don't understand how that follows on from anything I
said...

Check back through your messages. You indicated one of the best reasons
to use an IDE is for the autocompletion (or hints) for function.

However, not in this part of the thread - I was instead talking about
navigating the source code itself, with class views and associated tools.
I'm saying this is bogus - proper documentation replaces the need.
See the argument below...

With a decent Java IDE, they are - you press F1 (or Ctrl+F1, or
whatever), and you land straight on the documentation of the
class/method/variable in question.

Ah, another IDE - Java this time!

With Windows help files, you don't NEED an IDE!

Yes, I know that! And with HTML documentation, you don't need chm files;
and with a hard-copy manual, you don't need HTML documentation; we could
go on...

By the logic of your argument, you should be using Notepad to do your
coding!

The point is that pressing a single button (for me at least), is much
quicker and less distracting than pressing Alt+Tab, making sure the
caret is in the search box, typing the function name, selecting the
correct option, reading the definition in the help-file, temporarily
memorising it (or copy-pasting it), and then pressing Alt+Tab to get
back to the editor and then typing it in.

(Feel free to insert your own key combo instead of Alt+Tab!)

And BTW - this is a PHP newsgroup, not a Java newsgroup.

Indeed, however this thread has become more generalised and seems to be
about IDEs in general...
--
Oli

[Oli Filth]

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 27/10/2005 18:16:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 26/10/2005 02:55:
And why wade through all the doc? It's quite easy to make the doc a
Windows help file, and everything is right there. Or, if you wish,
make it a series of HTML pages, although that isn't as easy to search.

Google, HtDig, et. al. would disagree with you!

Let's see Google work on my intranet.

http://www.google-store.com/applianc...?products_id=1

Yours for just $2,995!
--
Oli

[Oli Filth]

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 27/10/2005 08:20:

Oli Filth wrote:

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 26/10/2005 00:41:

Oli Filth wrote:

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 19:07:

> Oli Filth wrote:
>
>> Whether the compiler and linker are built into an IDE or stand-alone,
>
> Huh? What are you talking about? What compiler/linkers are built
> into which IDEs? I'm curious...

Integrated, whatever, I think you knew what I meant...

No I didn't.

I was referring to, for instance, the Microsoft compiler(s) that comes
with Visual Studio, is run by default, and whose input (switches,
etc.) and output (compiler error messages) are integrated into the
fabric of the IDE. And yes, I do know that one can, if one wants to,
run the MS compiler completely independently, from command-line.
You have a strange way of looking at the phrase "built in".

Personally, I wouldn't say it's a massive stretch of that phrase.

I'm curious, as I don't use monolithic IDEs such as Visual
Studio, how exactly do you suck out their concept of a project into a
say a makefile such that you can build the whole application or system
via a simple command or script.
Certainly, older versions did. With VS .NET, I'm not sure.

> So the point of having the necessary compiler/linker or interpreter
> is moot. The point is, that you can indeed operate without an IDE
> except in the rare case were the compiler/linker/interpreter,
> whatever is actually built into the IDE (in fact I'd say none)

Hmm, perhaps you're right on this one.

Ah so then you admit that compilers/linkers/interpreters are not
build into IDEs. Good.

Was referring to the paragraph as a whole - not that individual
statement...

Now you have me totally confused. The point of the paragraph was to
enlighten you to the fact that interpreters like PHP are *not* build
into IDEs rather they are separate entities - indeed separate
executables that do not require nor use an IDE at all.

I took the pargraph to be essentially saying that "...the necessary
compiler/linker or interpreter is moot. The point is, that you can
indeed operate without an IDE...", and that's the point I was agreeing with.

I beg to disagree that an IDE "tells me what to do" - certainly it
assists me in doing certain things, or does certain tedious
house-keeping for me, but that's the whole point of a tool.

It is demonstrably telling you what to do! It is telling you what the
function you are typing in is when it assists you with the function
prototype. Now you are indeed free to ignore it's suggestion but it is
obviously telling you what it thinks you are doing at this point.

Well, not really. It gives you a list of possible matches given the
current context, which it narrows down as you type. As soon as its guess
is equal to your intention, you press Tab. Alternatively, the parameter
info pop-up just reminds you of the order and types of function
parameters, and allows you to view overload options. It's hardly telling
you to do something that you wouldn't have done if left to your own devices!

Certainly no more than a search engine is telling you where to go when
it returns its search results.

Which functionality specifically does a "good editor" give you that
isn't available in your average "good IDE"?

Being able to edit multiple different languages at the same time and
having the editor be cognizant of the different languages. Being able to
mark sections of code and it knowing how to comment it out with a single
command (and again be cognizant of multiple languages). Being able to
edit files remotely via ftp or ssh on any server in the world. Being
able to dynamically figure out and complete just about anything - not
just function prototypes.Bein g able to record complex commands and play
them back with ease - even repeatedly. Being able to edit huge files, be
they code or data or even binary (ever patch an executable directly with
that IDE? XEmacs can!). Being able to compile directly from the editor,
trace the errors back to the source, etc. Being able to run shell
commands in the editor capturing and piping the output so as to be able
to fill in files or code directly. Being able to interact with version
control to check out and in files with ease. Being able to extend the
editor in any way I choose using a flexible and AI like language called
lisp. Etc. etc. Sure some IDEs do some of this. Some others do other
parts of this. But rarely does one IDE do all of it. Not having to learn
a whole new way of doing things, different keystrokes, different
concepts, etc. and repeat that for every IDE for every language that I use.

Well, VS (my IDE of choice for C/C++/C# as you've probably gathered) can
do pretty much all of those things (save the multiple language things).
Can't speak for all IDEs, though.

Thinking about it, VS .NET in fact now offers an API so that third-party
plug-ins can be written or used. I believe there's even a PHP plug-in
somewhere.

You gave the FTP example elsewhere in this thread - not only can MS VS
manage a web project over FTP, but the Windows abstraction of the file
system allows you to access remote files like they were local anyway.

Really? So I can go into MS VS at work and then poke through the
firewall to edit machines on my Linux box at home through DSL or some
random box in England? Somehow I don't think I could...

If it's FTP access, you probably can. I dunno about SSH.

(Actually I did do some VB stuff - VB script
stuff - but used XEmacs to do it. MS VS VB is all oriented to creating
Windows GUI programs, but the task at hand was not to produce a GUI
program rather a script. BTW MS VS took up some 500 - 1 gig of my hard
drive! What a waste to write a 100 line VB script!
Should've used the VBScript in Excel!

Those English dude are so funny. I'm curious, is it actually
pronounced "ass" like us yanks or is it pronounced "are esss"?
Mostly like your phonetic representation. Although many people here
have been "corrupted" by the influx of American culture via TV and
films, and assume that "ass" is the way forward...

That it is... That it is... I will never get used to things like colour
and cheques.

Ditto for color and checks, and "Z"s where "S"s should be! At the risk
of starting a transatlantic divide, remember which came first!!
For a giggle you should read: Plan for Improvement of
English Spelling
<https://defaria.com/Jokes/Plan4Improvemen tOfEnglishSpell ing.php>

Beautiful...

Whilst "think before you type" is a virtue I attempt to adhere to,
doesn't *always* work in practice.

Well I've had the same problem and still do on occasion. But I actively
worked on it. Another concept I employ (usually) is the silly and stupid
concept of checking what I typed *before* I hit the send button. I'll do
it here to.

^
^
I think this may be irony epitomised!!

After I'm done typing in what I wanted to say I go back and
read it all. I change those mistakes of "your" but meant "you're", etc.
Some times I add stuff. Sometimes I reword stuff. Sometime I check it
again. I find it useful.
For extended posts like this, I usually spend a long time making sure
that my arguments make as much sense as possible - but sometimes I
forget that what makes sense in my head doesn't always make sense in a NG.

There are many of us who do and we really don't appreciate it when your
choice of IDE and your method of building does not easily fit into an
automated way of building large quantities of software which is how it
usually, eventually needs to happen in any large organization.

I entirely empathise with that. Would it be fair to say, though, that it
could be equally argued the other way - that programmers might not like
being forced to use a particular set of tools (or rather, prohibited
from using certain tools) to make the build engineer's job easier?

An analogy could be: if you were a user of Thunderbird, but your
organisation forced you to use Outlook for e-mail because it makes their
admin easier, would you not be annoyed?

--
Oli

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Google, HtDig, et. al. would disagree with you!

Let's see Google work on my intranet.

See http://www.google.com/webmasters/. As for being able to get into
your Intranet I believe you can also purchase a Google Search Engine
Appliance. If price is an issue I see you conveniently neglected both
HtDig and "et. al.". IOW there are options but you refuse to explore them.

Once you have the hang of it, Windows help files are very easy to
create!

Yeah then try browsing that Windows help file on your Linux
workstation...

So? I don't use Linux workstations. Windows workstations hooked to a
Linux server.

Typical Windows Tunnel Vision. Granted *you* use Windows. But not
everybody does! And you take the attitude of screw anybody else but me.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Oli Filth wrote:

Let's see Google work on my intranet.

http://www.google-store.com/applianc...?products_id=1

Yours for just $2,995!

Or HtDig. Yours for... ah... well... FREE!

[Andrew DeFaria]

Oli Filth wrote:

You have a strange way of looking at the phrase "built in".
Personally, I wouldn't say it's a massive stretch of that phrase.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here...

I'm curious, as I don't use monolithic IDEs such as Visual Studio,
how exactly do you suck out their concept of a project into a say a
makefile such that you can build the whole application or system via
a simple command or script.

Certainly, older versions did. With VS .NET, I'm not sure.

Kinda my point...

I beg to disagree that an IDE "tells me what to do" - certainly it
assists me in doing certain things, or does certain tedious
house-keeping for me, but that's the whole point of a tool.

It is demonstrably telling you what to do! It is telling you what the
function you are typing in is when it assists you with the function
prototype. Now you are indeed free to ignore it's suggestion but it
is obviously telling you what it thinks you are doing at this point.

Well, not really. It gives you a list of possible matches given the
current context, which it narrows down as you type. As soon as its
guess is equal to your intention, you press Tab. Alternatively, the
parameter info pop-up just reminds you of the order and types of
function parameters, and allows you to view overload options. It's
hardly telling you to do something that you wouldn't have done if left
to your own devices!

Certainly no more than a search engine is telling you where to go when
it returns its search results.

I think you make a good point here. About the only thing I can say is
that with the IDE it popped into your face therefore more suggestive -
especially to those who don't know what they are doing...
Well, VS (my IDE of choice for C/C++/C# as you've probably gathered)
can do pretty much all of those things (save the multiple language
things). Can't speak for all IDEs, though.
Maybe. Let's review. How much disk and memory space does VS take? How
much does it cost?

Really? So I can go into MS VS at work and then poke through the
firewall to edit machines on my Linux box at home through DSL or some
random box in England? Somehow I don't think I could...

If it's FTP access, you probably can. I dunno about SSH.

OK. Let's test it. From the IDE edit the file
ftp://defaria.com/testfile.txt. It's available via anonymous ftp.

(Actually I did do some VB stuff - VB script stuff - but used XEmacs
to do it. MS VS VB is all oriented to creating Windows GUI programs,
but the task at hand was not to produce a GUI program rather a
script. BTW MS VS took up some 500 - 1 gig of my hard drive! What a
waste to write a 100 line VB script!

Should've used the VBScript in Excel!

[Smacks head!] Of course! Why didn't I think to use a spreadsheet
calculator program to create a batch script! :-)

Those English dude are so funny. I'm curious, is it actually
pronounced "ass" like us yanks or is it pronounced "are esss"?

Mostly like your phonetic representation. Although many people here
have been "corrupted" by the influx of American culture via TV and
films, and assume that "ass" is the way forward...

That it is... That it is... I will never get used to things like
colour and cheques.

Ditto for color and checks, and "Z"s where "S"s should be! At the risk
of starting a transatlantic divide, remember which came first!!

Meaning that your version is old school and not further refined since it
was created? ;-)

(What? I like transatlantic divides! ;-) )

For a giggle you should read: Plan for Improvement of English
Spelling
<https://defaria.com/Jokes/Plan4Improvemen tOfEnglishSpell ing.php>

Beautiful...

Glad you liked it.

Whilst "think before you type" is a virtue I attempt to adhere to,
doesn't *always* work in practice.

Well I've had the same problem and still do on occasion. But I
actively worked on it. Another concept I employ (usually) is the
silly and stupid concept of checking what I typed *before* I hit the
send button. I'll do it here to.

^
^
I think this may be irony epitomised!!

Not quite sure what you are stating here. Could it be your spelling of
epitomised? ;-)

After I'm done typing in what I wanted to say I go back and read it
all. I change those mistakes of "your" but meant "you're", etc. Some
times I add stuff. Sometimes I reword stuff. Sometime I check it
again. I find it useful.

For extended posts like this, I usually spend a long time making sure
that my arguments make as much sense as possible - but sometimes I
forget that what makes sense in my head doesn't always make sense in a
NG.

It follows therefore that checking non-extended posts should be, well,
just even easier!

There are many of us who do and we really don't appreciate it when
your choice of IDE and your method of building does not easily fit
into an automated way of building large quantities of software which
is how it usually, eventually needs to happen in any large organization.

I entirely empathise with that. Would it be fair to say, though, that
it could be equally argued the other way - that programmers might not
like being forced to use a particular set of tools (or rather,
prohibited from using certain tools) to make the build engineer's job
easier?

You got a point. As in many things in life, a proper balance needs to be
struck and the pros and cons of both need to be investigated and judged
on their merit.
An analogy could be: if you were a user of Thunderbird, but your
organisation forced you to use Outlook for e-mail because it makes
their admin easier, would you not be annoyed?

Funny you should mention that. I am a TB user. Most of my clients use
Outlook and Exchange. Would I be annoyed - you betcha. But I simply plug
into IMAP and everything is fine.

But unlike code and building my usage of email is largely read oriented
in that I read my email. I respond too and in that sense I write to it.
However neither of these usages breaks everybody else.

Email is simply text that conforms to a standard. Mine conforms to the
standard so everybody's happy.

[Oli Filth]

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 27/10/2005 20:06:

Oli Filth wrote:

Well, VS (my IDE of choice for C/C++/C# as you've probably gathered)
can do pretty much all of those things (save the multiple language
things). Can't speak for all IDEs, though.

Maybe. Let's review. How much disk and memory space does VS take? How
much does it cost?

<Runs away, attempting to ignore the cost issue...>

Really? So I can go into MS VS at work and then poke through the
firewall to edit machines on my Linux box at home through DSL or some
random box in England? Somehow I don't think I could...

If it's FTP access, you probably can. I dunno about SSH.

OK. Let's test it. From the IDE edit the file
ftp://defaria.com/testfile.txt. It's available via anonymous ftp.

Interestingly, VS 6 can open it, whereas VS .NET can't. It's probably
trying to hook to it to monitor external changes, and failing, so gives up.

As for editing, my mistake - in my head I was combining the Windows
filesystem abstraction (i.e. being able to open files from FTP like they
were in a local directory), with VS's facility to manage and synchronise
projects on a web server.

Whilst "think before you type" is a virtue I attempt to adhere to,
doesn't *always* work in practice.
Well I've had the same problem and still do on occasion. But I
actively worked on it. Another concept I employ (usually) is the
silly and stupid concept of checking what I typed *before* I hit the
send button. I'll do it here to.

^
^
I think this may be irony epitomised!!

Not quite sure what you are stating here.

Your choice of homonym for "too" - i.e. I'll do it here *too*. ;)
--
Oli