What IDE are you using?

[typingcat]

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

So? What does that have to do with the original topic - whether an
IDE is better than a text editor or not?

It makes more of a team player when working on large projects with many
people. IDEs make you think of your your own little environment, which
then becomes specialized and only work in one very specific situation.

So you're saying IDE's are not the way to go? After all, they only work
in very specific situations. Text editors work in all situations.

But to respond to your comment. HTML help is fine - but do you have a
search engine which can search all the web pages?

Actually yes I do. HtDig will indeed to that.

Yep, I've seen it. It requires more maintenance than Windows help
files, for instance. You need a web server, after updating pages you
need to have HtDlg respider the pages. And you need to bring up a
browser to use it.

Windows help files are more responsive since they don't require server
resources (other than a shared directory for the help files). They run
completely on the user's desktop. Compiling the help files is easier
and faster than spidering pages, especially as the project grows.

I know there are some out there - but the free ones which will run on
an intranet aren't that great a quality, while the good quality ones
are expensive.

Well then you've never set one up and used it. Granted any search engine
is only as good as the quality of the stuff it searches...

Sure I have. And it's impressive for some things. But not for everything!

Yes, there are some Unix projects out there. And there are developers
who use Unix. I use Unix, also. But virtually all of my development
is done on Windows with a NFS mount from the Linux machine. It's then
an easy job to make the project. And although I don't do much Unix
programming, I don't think I've seen ANY projects which don't have
Windows on the majority of the desktops.

Who ever said majority?!? You did - not I. I merely stated that there
may be some people who are not on Windows.

Sure. But not on the projects I work on. Big difference. Note that I
don't dictate the use of windows - it's the environment which is already
there before I come in.
As for free Windows web search engines
http://www.google.com/search?q=free+...en-US:official
And as long as you already have Unix and are already accessing it,
surely you can put your docs there and use the Unix web server and HtDig
to provide documentation for all - instead of alienating those simply
because they didn't choose your chosen desktop - Windows. (BTW My chosen
desktop is Windows too! But I bear in mind others, am cognizant and
relatively fluent in Unix/Linux and I have seen the light and utility in
not locking people into one OS over the other).

Sure can. I can even put the Windows help files on a shared directory
in Unix. Or I can put them on a Windows server. Or anyplace else where
they can be shared.

And again - it's not *MY* chosen desktop. It's the one already being used.

In the real-life business world (at least in the U.S.), there are very
few people who *don't* use Windows.

But I'm sure there are some - and the Windows help files don't work
there. But they work for every project in which I've been involved.

Shows your lack of foresight! Hey it works for me, and everybody done my
isle so who cares. There are reasons why it's bad to lock yourself into
a proprietary OS and proprietary formats and good to embrace open
standards. Just look at the web! It works for Windows, Unix, Linux, Mac,
and a host of other OSes, all relatively the same.

Yep. And see my arguments above.

This is a closed environment. The systems are already using Windows.
There is *no* reason not to use Windows help files!

Remember - I'm stating what *I* use on *my* projects. It works for me.
I am *not* telling you what you should use.

Don't tell me what I should use. You don't know my customers. You
don't know my environment. And you don't know my needs.

I know all of these. Who's in a better situation to determine what my
needs are? Let me clue you - it is NOT YOU!

Just typical of "I know your job better than you do!".

Forget it. This conversation is at an end.
--
=============== ===
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js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Oli Filth wrote:

Jerry Stuckle said the following on 28/10/2005 04:28:

No, my original point was related to the original part of this thread.
You're trying to change that.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse...
If your post was in response to the original part of the thread, then
you should've posted it as a reply there. If you post it as a reply to
an unrelated branch (i.e. one that digressed, like NG discussions tend
to do), you can hardly be surprised when someone says "What the hell?
How does that relate to what I just said?".

You should read back through this branch. I did respond to the original
part of this thread. Since then you've tried to change the direction.

Yep - and each level brings a new layer of complexity.
Context-sensitive help is not always needed - unless you're lazy or
incompetent.

You're right, if it's *needed*, in the sense of "can't live without it".
However, IMO, it's always nice to have a tool which saves time, and
minimises distraction from the task in hand - actually putting code into
the editor.

That's your opinion, which is fine. I find the auto code completion to
be a distraction.

I'm a touch typist. There are lots of times I'm typing while looking at
the doc - not the screen. So when the editor auto completes code for
me, I need to backspace and re-edit the code.

Additionally, when I have to choose from a list of functions, I find it
takes longer for me to stop typing, select the function from the list,
then continue typing than it does to just type the function name myself.
Even basics like auto-indent and syntax highlighting aren't *needed*,
but I'd be pretty pissed off if I had to work without them.

I agree the auto indent is nice, which is why I use textpad.
--
=============== ===
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js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ah but they surely can, easily and cheaply with HtDig.

No, it's not as easy as Windows help files. Also not as fast.

Google searches billions of web pages in seconds. When a Windows help
file can achieve that same speed give me a ring.

So? What does Google searching billions of pages (using hundreds of
servers) have to do with it?

HTML is good for a lot of things - but it's NOT the answer to life,
the universe and everything!

You're just afraid of it because you don't understand it...

I understand it completely. I've probably been writing HTML longer than
you have - since 1992 or so. And I continue to write HTML as well as XML.

And no - it is NOT the answer to live, the universe and everything!

But you obviously have tunnel vision. You think your way is the best
for everyone. My statement is that it is not. And the way I do it
works best for me and the projects I work on.

Sorry. This conversation is at an end.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ah that would be wonderful. But in my some 25 years in the business I
don't think I've ever actually seen that in practice! Then again I do
more admin/build/release stuff... (And surprisingly enough, even at
that late stage of the game, rarely do I see design docs that go to
the level of defining function names and parameters... Sad but true)

Then you're Project Manager is not managing the project properly.

Then my Project Managers, from over 25 years - at companies as big and
diverse as HP, Sun, Cisco, Amerquest, Broadcom and a plethora of others
(look up my resume...) have all not been managing their projects
properly. This does say something very loudly and clearly - what you
describe is definitely not the norm. Indeed what you describe is pie in
the sky rarity!

Yep, I find that very common in the business world today. Just because
you're big doesn't mean you can manage projects properly. I saw the
same thing when I worked for IBM. It's one of the reasons I left IBM.
They taught me project management, and I worked on a couple of projects
where it was used quite effectively. Then I got stuck on one which was
doomed to fail because it wasn't being managed properly. I had the
chance to get out, so I took it.

What percentage of these projects were late, over budget and/or never
got finished at all? And how many were finished but didn't provide the
functionality required? Quite frankly, the result is a surprisingly
high percentage.

This, BTW, includes the project I was on when I left IBM. It was
supposed to be a six month project. It actually should have taken less
than that. But after two years it was canceled.

But some companies are seeing the light. And those projects are
succeeding. They are on time, within budget and successful.
Mind you I agree with the philosophy and personally that's the way I
would do it. However, and again, that is not the way I've ever seen it
done.

That's where as a consultant I have an advantage. If the customer wants
me, it's on my terms. And my track record shows I can get the work done.
Finally, my Project Managers as of late are not really projects managers
as per se, rather they are clients.

Clients are not project managers. They are clients. Two entirely
different things!

I learned about project management when I was working for IBM back in
the 80's.

Break out the blue suit and tie... ;-)

You forgot the white shirt! :-)

Since then I've been both a programmer and a PM. When I've been a PM,
the documentation is complete long before programming starts (and yes,
I get the programmers involved in the design). And I've been a
programmer on projects where the design is done properly. Every one
was completed on time

Given enough time that is. Unfortunately businesses do not really have
that kind of time anymore. Models like the Open Source model beat the
pants off of the structured design everything first then start coding
methodologies of the past...

Proper project management *shortens* the time it takes to complete a
project - the bigger the project, the more time it saves.

When the design is done ahead of time, there is less rewriting because
other code changed. And every time you have to rewrite the code, you
increase the chance of errors creeping into the code, which means more
test/diagnosis/correction time. It also increases the number of errors
which can make it to the customer.

and within budget, given reasonable time and budgetary constraints.

Aye there's the rub - "reasonable time". Which is way longer than is
acceptable these days. Why do you think IBM fell from on high? Because
different more flexible and a lot faster ways of doing things developed
and IBM didn't keep pace. The only reason IBM is back at all is that
they have actively changed their culture and stringentness.

All the more reason to do proper management.

And no, IBM didn't keep pace. They didn't realize the effect their PC
would have on the rest of the world. They made major missteps in their
target audience. They did a huge amount of things wrong.

And change orders were handled by modifying the design - which showed
exactly how it would affect other parts of the project.

I've also worked on ones where PM wasn't properly done. Some were on
time, but most were late. They also had more bugs and change orders
were harder to implement.

The track records of the big companies has not agreed with your assessment.

As I said - just because you're big doesn't mean you do it right. And
the track record of the big companies has shown that it has been done.

I used to do a lot of training - both in programming and project
management. Most of my customers were from the Fortune 1000 list. And
virtually every class where I asked if they had projects which were
overdue, over budget, etc., I had people raise their hands. And the
common thread was that the projects were not being managed.

I actually had a manager tell me one time "If my programmers aren't
writing code, they aren't being productive." He completely ignored the
fact that just because they were writing code *did not* mean they were
being productive! It meant they were writing code.

But without direction, the manager had no idea of the code would ever be
used in a project or not. And if it was not, they weren't very
productive, were they?

It's why I get programmers involved with the design phase. They are
helping, and more importantly, they are getting a better feel for the
project as a whole. And they are being productive - they are helping to
produce the design spec they will eventually write code for.

And when it comes time to write the code, they do it more quickly and
with fewer errors because they don't have to keep going back and
rewriting it.

Of course, if you don't design the application and fly by the seat
of your pants, that's another story.
In my line of work I'm forced to do that all the time...

I've heard that before. But all but the smallest projects benefit
from a proper design.

Yes but then your contract expires early and your out on the street
begging for food. You know those grandiose ideas and methodologies look
great on paper. But the real world and real business constraints always
seem to get in way. As a contract and a businessman myself I strive to
keep the customer happy and they are always right, etc... Real world is,
while proper design, etc. is all nice, it don't happen much.

I admit, when I first started consulting, I was hungry a fair amount of
the time. But never since then. In fact, I've turned down work.
Success breeds success - and demand.

The only "real world and real business constraints" here is the thinking
of management. You need to convince them that proper management means a
more successful project. This takes proven experience, knowledge and
belief in yourself, amongst other things. And most importantly, it
takes skill in dealing with the customer.

Probably the best lesson I ever learned was to walk away from a bad
contract instead of taking it, no matter how hungry I was.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Windows help compiler - $0.

You forgot to include the cost of Windows itself!

(BTW Linux is free - yeah companies sell Linux but what they are selling
really is support not the software itself - IOW you can get Linux for
free).

Already on the system. No additional charge.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Jerry Stuckle]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Irrelevant. We're talking about documentation for a project, not some
"random odd topic".

Not irrelevant. Google searching billions of pages - why more than
whatever documentation you or I have ever produced - and does so quite
well. The same can be applied to your own documentation.. .

Completely irrelevant. Google has hundreds of servers with databases,
etc. If I had the resources of Google, it would be a different story.

(Reminds me of the adage: When all you have is a hammer then every
problem looks like a nail!)

You said it. You're the one trying to force everyone to use an IDE!

Boy you are really a moron aren't you? I suggest you go back and do a
little research there bud. If you did I'm sure you would quickly find
that it is not I who is trying to force anybody to using any IDE. I'm
the guy who's against IDEs and I mentioned it last post. You, however
didn't even read that or your comprehension skills are all shot. Let me
make it clear *I DO NOT ENDORSE THE CONCEPT OF USING IDES - IN FACT I
SAY THE OPPOSITE!!!* I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on this
subject. Now that you've just proven that you are a moron wiggle out of
that one!

My mistake, then. I have you mixed up with someone else.

I'm telling you HOW I WORK AND WHAT I USE. Unlike you, I AM NOT
TELLING YOU WHAT TO USE!

I'm telling you how to play nice with others. If all you ever do is
create code in isolation and never in a group use any damn thing you
want. But when you have the attitude of "this is how I work - works
for me - and who gives a rat's ass about my coworker who is working
on the same app, needs the same documentation but doesn't use
Windows" then I have a problem with it.

And how is using a text editor not "playing nice with others"? Many
projects I've worked on use TextPad or something similar.

Huh? Are you really this dense? If you produce MS only help files for
your documented function calls then you have alienated anybody who
doesn't use Windows. Is this concept really that difficult for you to
grasp?!?

Let's see. It's internal documentation, and everyone on the project
already uses Windows. Who am I alienating?

And when I say "This is how I work" - I mean this is how the projects
I manage work. Each person is free to use his/her favorite
editor/ide/whatever. I don't force a single IDE on anyone.

Nor do I, even though you still haven't managed to understand that. We
weren't talking about editors or IDEs for that matter. We were talking
about your proprietary formated MS Help files...

OK. But as I said - it works for me.

The incompetent trying to force the more capable to conform.

Dude you're just way off base here...

Again, my apologies. Too many subthreads going here.

I use what is best for me and on my projects.

And not a single one of them used anything other than Windows? You sound
like just another MS drone to me...

Not since the late 90's. Before that I did a lot of OS/2 work.

I am definitely *not* an MS drone. The fact of life is - in the
business world in the U.S., most of the users (even programmers) use
Windows. Linux has made some inroads - but not a lot. And even those
who have Linux generally also have Windows. There are very few
Linux-only users out there.

Don't get me wrong - I wish there were more Linux users out there. I
like it myself - I have a couple of Debian machines here and a Debian
VPS at a hosting company. I like Linux. But Windows is still my main
desktop because there are so many more programs out there for it.

Yes, there are some inroads being made. StarOffice, for instance, is a
big one. As there gets to be more programs for Linux I expect to see
its usage grow.

Not at all. It's the way the whole project works.

Now who's forcing compliance?

I'm using what's already there. And using Windows help files when
everyone is already using Windows is no more "forcing compliance" than
using HTML help files is.

At some point you need to make some project-wide decisions. This is one
of mine.

Get with it. There are a lot of people in this world who are more
knowledgeable and competent than you. And a large percentage of those
people agree with me - use what works best for you.

I'm all for using what works best for you. However when parts of what
you are working on are shared by others, then to assume the mindset that
everybody else works like you is just plain wrong. You do this when you
admit to using Windows Help files which admittedly only work on Windows
right? Ergo that shared documentation is not usable by anybody who
doesn't use Windows. At this point that other person has two options:
Either user Windows like you (i.e. break the rule of use what works best
for him) or not be able to share that knowledge. The only other way out
of that dilemma is if the documentation you produced is not intended for
everybody - i.e. you are working in isolation. Which is it?
--
Music is the art which is most nigh to tears and memory. - Oscar Wilde

Again, not a problem. They're already using Windows.
--
=============== ===
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

So? What does that have to do with the original topic - whether an
IDE is better than a text editor or not?
It makes more of a team player when working on large projects with
many people. IDEs make you think of your your own little environment,
which then becomes specialized and only work in one very specific
situation.

So you're saying IDE's are not the way to go? After all, they only
work in very specific situations. Text editors work in all situations.

Ding, ding, ding! You win a prize! You finally got it (only after
several posts directly stating this!). I'm an XEmacs guy. Is that an
IDE? :-)

But to respond to your comment. HTML help is fine - but do you have
a search engine which can search all the web pages?

Actually yes I do. HtDig will indeed to that.

Yep, I've seen it. It requires more maintenance than Windows help
files, for instance.

Like?
You need a web server,
Most people/companies already have a web server. Web servers like Apache
are also free (and have much utility BTW).
after updating pages you need to have HtDlg respider the pages.
One word: cron! Next invalid assumption...
And you need to bring up a browser to use it.
You need to bring up Windows help viewer to view it. Let me ask you a
question: Don't you usually have a web browser running?!?
Windows help files are more responsive since they don't require server
resources (other than a shared directory for the help files).
Oh come on! You're actually gonna try to use a "It takes 1/2 a
nanosecond more" argument?!? Exactly how much resources do you think it
takes to serve up a web page? Balance that with the fact that your
documentation is now available company wide, which promotes
communication between team members. You have a very weak argument here dude.
They run completely on the user's desktop.
So what?!?
Compiling the help files is easier and faster than spidering pages,
especially as the project grows.
And yet this help file is only available on your desktop! So how do
others view it? Oh so you pass it around, where you can then get
versionitis never mind all that useless copying...

I know there are some out there - but the free ones which will run
on an intranet aren't that great a quality, while the good quality
ones are expensive.

Well then you've never set one up and used it. Granted any search
engine is only as good as the quality of the stuff it searches...

Sure I have. And it's impressive for some things. But not for
everything!

You still haven't demonstrated how it is not impressive for what we are
discussing here. You just like your windows help files and cannot see
any other way to do it because it's foreign to you. Let me ask you this:
Major applications, software and languages from Apache, Perl, PHP, and
many other applications use the web to document their products and
languages. Now if your method is so superior why didn't they choose
Windows Help Files?

Yes, there are some Unix projects out there. And there are
developers who use Unix. I use Unix, also. But virtually all of my
development is done on Windows with a NFS mount from the Linux
machine. It's then an easy job to make the project. And although I
don't do much Unix programming, I don't think I've seen ANY projects
which don't have Windows on the majority of the desktops.

Who ever said majority?!? You did - not I. I merely stated that there
may be some people who are not on Windows.

Sure. But not on the projects I work on.

It's that the very definition of tunnel vision.
Big difference. Note that I don't dictate the use of windows - it's
the environment which is already there before I come in.
Again, my premise is that there are some people who are not using
Windows who will have a problem with what you propose. Additionally, how
do your Windows help files get around to other developers? You email
them (thus copying them and multiple copies often equals multiple old
copies of incompatible versions)? You put them on a share somewhere and
people reference them (and possibly copy them - after all you don't want
to take up precious server resources...) again facing the problem of
multiple copies and versions floating about. Also, how do you search a
Windows help file? Yeah I know, you fire up Windows help and use it's
facilities. But how do you search *through* multiple Windows help files?
Oh what? You can't. Thought so...

As for free Windows web search engines
http://www.google.com/search?q=free+...en-US:official
And as long as you already have Unix and are already accessing it,
surely you can put your docs there and use the Unix web server and
HtDig to provide documentation for all - instead of alienating those
simply because they didn't choose your chosen desktop - Windows. (BTW
My chosen desktop is Windows too! But I bear in mind others, am
cognizant and relatively fluent in Unix/Linux and I have seen the
light and utility in not locking people into one OS over the other).

Sure can. I can even put the Windows help files on a shared directory
in Unix. Or I can put them on a Windows server. Or anyplace else
where they can be shared.

And what does a Unix user do after they get this Windows help file?

Also see above. You complain about using server resources then use them
yourself! Your arguments are disingenuous at best!
And again - it's not *MY* chosen desktop. It's the one already being
used.

In the real-life business world (at least in the U.S.), there are very
few people who *don't* use Windows.
Well then you haven't been around. I can assure you in the HP Language
Labs where we produced compiler products for HP-UX, people used HP
Workstations running HP-UX not Windows. Ditto for the kernel lab and
other places. And we are not talking 1 or 2 people rather hundreds.

In Sun in the area where I was contracted, it was actually forbidden to
connect a Windows PC to the corporate network!

But I'm sure there are some - and the Windows help files don't work
there. But they work for every project in which I've been involved.

Shows your lack of foresight! Hey it works for me, and everybody done
my isle so who cares. There are reasons why it's bad to lock yourself
into a proprietary OS and proprietary formats and good to embrace
open standards. Just look at the web! It works for Windows, Unix,
Linux, Mac, and a host of other OSes, all relatively the same.

Yep. And see my arguments above.

What? You still lack foresight. You think only in terms of Windows.
This is a closed environment. The systems are already using Windows.
There is *no* reason not to use Windows help files!
Sure there is. I gave you some. But then again it took at least 3 posts
for you to get that I wasn't advocating IDEs at all. I wonder how many
posts it will take this time before you actually read and think about
what I posted. You can only search Windows help files one at a time -
not index a set of them.
Remember - I'm stating what *I* use on *my* projects. It works for
me. I am *not* telling you what you should use.
Neither am I! I'm just saying your have tunnel vision because you do not
look beyond your close little environment. I'm not saying don't do it!
I'm saying I wouldn't do that.
Don't tell me what I should use.
I didn't. I told you what I would use and what I see as limiting your
vision.
You don't know my customers.
How do you know that?
You don't know my environment.
I have a pretty good picture though.
And you don't know my needs.
And I wasn't talking about *your* needs. I was talking about the
possible needs of others - not you!
I know all of these. Who's in a better situation to determine what my
needs are? Let me clue you - it is NOT YOU!
Tunnel vision, tunnel vision, tunnel vision. It's all about you isn't it!
Just typical of "I know your job better than you do!".

Forget it. This conversation is at an end.

Great!
--
Yesterday I parked my car in a tow-away zone...when I came back the
entire area was missing...

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Ah but they surely can, easily and cheaply with HtDig.

No, it's not as easy as Windows help files. Also not as fast.
Google searches billions of web pages in seconds. When a Windows help
file can achieve that same speed give me a ring.

So? What does Google searching billions of pages (using hundreds of
servers) have to do with it?

Your claim is that web searches are not as fast as searching a Windows
help file. The fact that web searches such as Google searches billions
of pages in seconds and a Windows help file could never come close to
that search speed given a similar sized set of things to search (in fact
I doubt it could even attempt to do the job). It is directly relevant
and directly contradicts your assertion!

HTML is good for a lot of things - but it's NOT the answer to life,
the universe and everything!

You're just afraid of it because you don't understand it...

I understand it completely. I've probably been writing HTML longer
than you have - since 1992 or so.

Ah your wrong. I was writing HTML back then too. Next invalid assumption...
And I continue to write HTML as well as XML.

And no - it is NOT the answer to live, the universe and everything!
How could it be the answer to "live"?!? :-)

BTW I never said it was. Of course that's irrelevant to you, cause your
talking out of your ass anyway...
But you obviously have tunnel vision.
How do you figure? Wait, never mind. It's sure to be some other invalid
assumption... Besides didn't you say this conversation was over. Why you
still talking then?
You think your way is the best for everyone.
I never said that either. All I said was that your solution was limited.
I didn't say that my solution was the best, rather it's just a solution.
There are others....
My statement is that it is not. And the way I do it works best for me
and the projects I work on.
Again, it's all about you.
Sorry. This conversation is at an end.

Again? Gee wonkers Wally!
--
Disco dancing is just the steady thump of a giant moron knocking in an
endless nail. - Clive James, London Sunday Observer 17 Dec 78

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Then my Project Managers, from over 25 years - at companies as big
and diverse as HP, Sun, Cisco, Amerquest, Broadcom and a plethora of
others (look up my resume...) have all not been managing their
projects properly. This does say something very loudly and clearly -
what you describe is definitely not the norm. Indeed what you
describe is pie in the sky rarity!
Yep, I find that very common in the business world today.

What does that say to you?
Just because you're big doesn't mean you can manage projects properly.
At least by your definition. Granted some places have bad project
management. But many of them work just fine in ways other than what you
are espousing.

Finally, my Project Managers as of late are not really projects
managers as per se, rather they are clients.

Clients are not project managers. They are clients. Two entirely
different things!

Didn't I just say that!

Given enough time that is. Unfortunately businesses do not really
have that kind of time anymore. Models like the Open Source model
beat the pants off of the structured design everything first then
start coding methodologies of the past...

Proper project management *shortens* the time it takes to complete a
project - the bigger the project, the more time it saves.

Agreed. Proper project management is a good thing. Is proper project
management where ever last stitch of documentation is written before the
first line of code is written. In my experience no, that is not the
case. Prototyping is more effective.
When the design is done ahead of time, there is less rewriting because
other code changed. And every time you have to rewrite the code, you
increase the chance of errors creeping into the code, which means more
test/diagnosis/correction time. It also increases the number of
errors which can make it to the customer.
There are many people who disagree with your theory.

and within budget, given reasonable time and budgetary constraints.

Aye there's the rub - "reasonable time". Which is way longer than is
acceptable these days. Why do you think IBM fell from on high?
Because different more flexible and a lot faster ways of doing things
developed and IBM didn't keep pace. The only reason IBM is back at
all is that they have actively changed their culture and stringentness.

All the more reason to do proper management.

And no, IBM didn't keep pace. They didn't realize the effect their PC
would have on the rest of the world. They made major missteps in
their target audience. They did a huge amount of things wrong.

What I'm saying is that it's similar to a 50% off sale. What is a 50%
off sale when the seller first marks it up 100%. Answer it's a 50% gain
for the seller! You can scope out the project for 1 year and manage it
effectively and even up in at 11 months. Or you can get cracking at be
done in 7 months. How is claiming that this "proper project management"
saved 1 month of development time helpful?

And change orders were handled by modifying the design - which
showed exactly how it would affect other parts of the project.

I've also worked on ones where PM wasn't properly done. Some were
on time, but most were late. They also had more bugs and change
orders were harder to implement.

The track records of the big companies has not agreed with your
assessment.

As I said - just because you're big doesn't mean you do it right. And
the track record of the big companies has shown that it has been done.

I agree. Just because you're big doesn't mean that you do it right.
However, again, every company that I have been, including big, named
companies, operate similarly and do not operate the way you say you do.
That says something. Had I just said "Well none of the companies I've
worked at do it that way" you'd say I must have worked at bad companies.
I don't think that I have.
I used to do a lot of training - both in programming and project
management.
Ah, those that do do, those that can't teach... :-)
Most of my customers were from the Fortune 1000 list. And virtually
every class where I asked if they had projects which were overdue,
over budget, etc., I had people raise their hands. And the common
thread was that the projects were not being managed.
Projects need to be managed. Granted. I thought we were discussing the
way they are managed. Specifically I thought we were talking about the
requirement to have all the documentation in before coding. In practice
that rarely happens. Why is that? Just everybody doing it wrong? I doubt it!
I actually had a manager tell me one time "If my programmers aren't
writing code, they aren't being productive." He completely ignored
the fact that just because they were writing code *did not* mean they
were being productive! It meant they were writing code.
Actually he is correct and you are wrong. A programmers job is to write
code. I designers job is to design stuff. The programmers should be
writing code or they are not doing their job - period. They should be
writing code that was designed by the designer last month, for example.
But without direction, the manager had no idea of the code would ever
be used in a project or not. And if it was not, they weren't very
productive, were they?
You assume that they are writing code for something that has not been
designed yet. Next invalid assumption!
It's why I get programmers involved with the design phase. They are
helping, and more importantly, they are getting a better feel for the
project as a whole. And they are being productive - they are helping
to produce the design spec they will eventually write code for.
Granted, most programmers are not only coders, they are designers too.
And when it comes time to write the code, they do it more quickly and
with fewer errors because they don't have to keep going back and
rewriting it.
That's just what unexperienced programmers do. They need that helping hand.

> Of course, if you don't design the application and fly by the seat
> of your pants, that's another story.

In my line of work I'm forced to do that all the time...

I've heard that before. But all but the smallest projects benefit
from a proper design.

Yes but then your contract expires early and your out on the street
begging for food. You know those grandiose ideas and methodologies
look great on paper. But the real world and real business constraints
always seem to get in way. As a contract and a businessman myself I
strive to keep the customer happy and they are always right, etc...
Real world is, while proper design, etc. is all nice, it don't happen
much.

I admit, when I first started consulting, I was hungry a fair amount
of the time. But never since then. In fact, I've turned down work.
Success breeds success - and demand.

A proper consultant does what the contract requires. If the contract
does not require a large over management of a project then you shouldn't
be doing that. If the contract merely wants you to write code then you
write code. You do what you client wants.
The only "real world and real business constraints" here is the
thinking of management.
Yeah right! Just ignore reality. It doesn't really exist.
You need to convince them that proper management means a more
successful project. This takes proven experience, knowledge and
belief in yourself, amongst other things. And most importantly, it
takes skill in dealing with the customer.
So you sell them a bill of goods. Great. I'm sure it makes you money.
Probably the best lesson I ever learned was to walk away from a bad
contract instead of taking it, no matter how hungry I was.

--
Will the information superhighway have any rest stops?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Jerry Stuckle wrote:

Windows help compiler - $0.

You forgot to include the cost of Windows itself!

(BTW Linux is free - yeah companies sell Linux but what they are
selling really is support not the software itself - IOW you can get
Linux for free).

Already on the system. No additional charge.

Which is not the same as no charge. Can you understand that difference?
Already on the system does not mean that it was free.
--
I was hitchhiking the other day, and a hearse stopped. I said, "No
thanks - I'm not going that far."