What IDE are you using?

[typingcat]

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Ramon wrote:

true what they say about old dogs not being able to learn new tricks, I
see you have gottn quete worked up over ths issue, ok... IDEs are not
for everyone. Keep training people to use TextPad and vi.

First of all, I learn a lot of "new tricks". As an instructor, I have
to know MORE than the students. And in the past few years I've learned
PHP, Javascript and Java. This is on top of my two main languages, C
and C++.

Second, it's not your position to tell me what my emotions are, and I
would appreciate it if you would refrain from doing to. I am not worked
up over this.

And, BTW, it has been scientifically proven you *can* teach an old dog
new tricks. They learn quite well.
Infact you can do anything you like, talking to you is like talking to a
brick wall, an old brick wall. To be honest I got better things to do.

Not in the least.

Your statement is that any programmer who doesn't use an IDE such as
ZEND isn't as productive as one who does.

My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make the
mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?
Infact this is exactly the same as when I asked about shared memory
allocation I think you were also the first fag to jump in and proove
that you know everything about anything. And that your 50 years
experience gives you an edge some how. IT&T is moving way to quick for
someone to go and claim just because they written code in assembler or
something else prehistoric that they know better.

Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new guy
who thinks he's an "expert".

And for your argument that you are training people for so many years, I
don't give a flying shit who you train. Not all my lecture's were good.
And perhaps you are quete average as well. After all marketing does have
a large roll in *selling* education.

And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different than
in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of a
semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from the
ground up.

Every course has critiques of both the course material and the trainer.
And if I don't do a good job, they find someone else for the next course.

But I keep getting rehired.
So I'll repeat, I've worked in the commerce sector, now I am in
education my self. And all the people over the 10 years who I showed
Zend. And statisticly I'm sure that some of those programmers would have
been good. Have all had a positive response about Zend. And I'm sure are
using it to this day.

Gee, you work for a community college? Or are you one of those "not so
good" lecturers?
Anyway, my point is... if you are programming a PHP - with OO structure,
obstraction layers. Zend is the way to go. That is all, you can argue
until you are blue in the face that is not, I've used both approaches,
and I can see the plain difference in department now. Right this second.
Not 10-20 years ago. But Now.

It is ONE way to go. Not the ONLY WAY.

And btw - I really don't think much of anyone who can't be bothered to
follow newsgroup standards. One of the standards for this newsgoup does
NOT include top posting.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

true what they say about old dogs not being able to learn new tricks,
I see you have gottn quete worked up over ths issue, ok... IDEs are
not for everyone. Keep training people to use TextPad and vi.
An "old dog" doesn't need new tricks when the old tricks work just fine.
Just because something is new does not mean that it's better.
Infact you can do anything you like, talking to you is like talking to
a brick wall, an old brick wall. To be honest I got better things to do.
I see you had time to waste here responding...
Infact this is exactly the same as when I asked about shared memory
allocation I think you were also the first fag to jump in and proove
that you know everything about anything. And that your 50 years
experience gives you an edge some how. IT&T is moving way to quick for
someone to go and claim just because they written code in assembler or
something else prehistoric that they know better.
At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!
And for your argument that you are training people for so many years,
I don't give a flying shit who you train. Not all my lecture's were
good. And perhaps you are quete average as well. After all marketing
does have a large roll in *selling* education.
But the teachers are not usually the ones selling education - it's the
marketers that do that...
So I'll repeat, I've worked in the commerce sector, now I am in
education my self. And all the people over the 10 years who I showed
Zend. And statisticly I'm sure that some of those programmers would
have been good. Have all had a positive response about Zend. And I'm
sure are using it to this day.
A vast majority of people eat at McDonalds. That doesn't mean that it's
good food...
Anyway, my point is... if you are programming a PHP - with OO
structure, obstraction layers. Zend is the way to go. That is all, you
can argue until you are blue in the face that is not, I've used both
approaches, and I can see the plain difference in department now.
Right this second. Not 10-20 years ago. But Now.

Does nothing to negate the fact that IDEs may be fine for some people,
but not everybody...

[Ramon]

And in the past few years I've learned PHP

Key sentence I believe.

Second, it's not your position to tell me what my emotions are, and I
would appreciate it if you would refrain from doing to. I am not worked
up over this.
Wish granted.

And, BTW, it has been scientifically proven you *can* teach an old dog
new tricks. They learn quite well.
What with a 5 min attention span? Sure repetition is they key, I'll try
to repeat my self more often.
Not in the least.

Your statement is that any programmer who doesn't use an IDE such as
ZEND isn't as productive as one who does.
On large scale projects *YES*.
My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.
Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.
Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make the
mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?
I'm not trying to fit anyone into anything, it is my personal opinion to
which I am entitled.

Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new guy
who thinks he's an "expert".
There are quete a few people who are of the same opinion in this thread
alone. They are all *new guys*.
And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different than
in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of a
semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from the
ground up.
Good, I am glad that we have come to an understanding at least on this.
If you don't give a shit, don't correct me or insult me, and go hide in
the hole you crawled out of. The OP asked for an opionion, which I gave
who gave you the write to critises that? Fucking armchair bandit.
Every course has critiques of both the course material and the trainer.
And if I don't do a good job, they find someone else for the next course.
You seem to ahve alot of time on your hands atm, not many contracts
going your way. BL.
Gee, you work for a community college? Or are you one of those "not so
good" lecturers?
No, actually Information Technology Services for a major reasearch based
University. 2 degrees, 1 in comp. science (australia), and 1 in Moscow's
MGU also comp. science, not that your arrogence would allow you to know
what that is.

It is ONE way to go. Not the ONLY WAY.

CBF repeating again, even though I do realise taht repetition is
paramount here. As old dogs do... learn... well...

And btw - I really don't think much of anyone who can't be bothered to

follow newsgroup standards. One of the standards for this newsgoup does
NOT include top posting.

That is just sad. You don't think much of me? :) My confidence is shattered.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Oli Filth wrote:

Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve
by using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_crea te() or
XmlParserCreate () or xmlParserCreate () (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystac k, $needle)) is nothing
but an exercise in trivia.
No, to me it's a sign that you don't know the function well enough...

I repeat my original point - where's the benefit in learning the
precise syntax for thousands of functions, especially custom functions
that may not be documented, or unfamiliar libraries?

And I will repeat mine: What good is it *not *to be familar with the
function call in question?

And you shouldn't have thousands of functions! If you got that much then
you should break things into smaller , more manageable pieces.
It doesn't make one a better programmer (in the sense of understanding
how to design and construct functional, elegant programs and code),
Sure it does.
and is error-prone (in the sense that you have to wait until run-time
to spot your mistakes that would otherwise have been picked up by
syntax highlighting, or wouldn't have been there in the first place
due to autocompletion) .
Who says that XEmacs, for example, doesn't do syntax highlighting?!?

And no you don't *have* to wait until run-time! You could always look it
up if you are unsure about it *before* you run it!
Just because, for a trivial example, I can't remember whether it's
imagejpeg($sour ce, $filename, $quality) or imagejpeg($file name,
$quality, $source) has no bearing on my understanding of what that
function does or why I want to use it...
Sorry you can't remember the functions that you use.
Don't get me wrong though, if someone finds writing code easier in
TextPad (or whatever) easier, then I'm not going to dispute that. I
just find it a little tricky to understand.

That's cause you're thinking of TextPad. I've never used TextPad...

I find it much better to use a good editor, a good terminal emulator, a
good language (or two) with a good debugger and I have specific tools
for each task. Each are good at what they do and I don't have to bother
loading some monolithic application that tries to be the jack of all
trades while mastering none of them... That is the Unix philosophy and
it has been for decades - and for good reason!

Unfortunately, most APIs are necessarily complex...

I would agree! Except, of course, for the usage of the word
"necessaril y". For that word I would substitute the word
"unnecessarily" .

Depends. Larger APIs ultimately afford you greater flexibility. You
probably couldn't shrink, for example, the Windows or Java APIs
without losing functionality and/or flexibility.

How many applications do you write that actually use more than a handful
of those APIs? And the Windows and Java APIs are not great examples of
well engineered and well thought out APIs, IMHO...

Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people
still program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm

Yup, I still do too ;) But only for embedded stuff.

Well if you read the page you would see he write *all* of his
applications in assembly...

Yeah, I noticed that. IMO, that's a pointless waste of time, unless
he's doing it purely for the academic exercise. :)

You would argue that writing things efficiently is a pointless waste of
time. That speaks more about you than it does about me. Granted, I don't
write tight assembly code for my apps but I sure know enough to
appreciate somebody who does instead of calling his work pointless!

[Ramon]

> At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!

haha, well sure, you got me there, english isnt my first language, but I
can speak & write 4 languages fluently, how many can you? ;)

[Andrew DeFaria]

Oli Filth wrote:

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:29:

Oli Filth wrote:

Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:

Sure all the code completion and such is nice and *might* save you
time when you are using functions that aren't part of your daily
routine, but if you have only ever used IDEs and not memorized
function names, syntax and return cases, where would you be when
you notice that something is very bad on your site and you don't
have access to your computer (or any computer) with the IDE installed?

I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a
compiler (e.g. C), the point is moot...
Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.

I was refuting the idea that you could fix code errors on any PC
without "specialist " tools. That only applies for script-based
languages, and therefore isn't a general rule. Wasn't very clear
originally, I admit!

Sorry, still doesn't compute. What stops one from logging into a system
and tweaking and recompiling say a C program? Ah are you locked into MS
VisualStudio? Well lookee here! Another monolithic IDE application!
Which, of course, points to another reason why IDEs are indeed bad. It
seems you are admitting that without them you cannot work!

On the contrary in the, ahem, old way of doing things you simply use a
plain text editor to edit a file or a makefile, rebuild the app and your
on your way! Even from a telnet session from across the world. No need
for an IDE. No dependence on the IDE. Job completed! Even in C or some
other 3rd generation language (speaking of old school).

You see it starts off with "Gee this is cool because it colors the
syntax. And look here it bring up the relevant documentation! And auto
completes. Cool, cool, cool. And I can drag and drop my files into this
project thingy and not have to think about make files" then progresses
to the point where, without the monolithic IDE application and your
"environmen t" you effectively can't work - and that's bad!

My point was along the lines of "why forego modern technology that's
there to make your life easier?".

The same reason why teenagers always use calculators and have been
losing the ability to compute problems, do arithmetic without a
calculator and to, by extension, think logically. Just because
there's a modern do hickey for something doesn't mean that you can
nor should give up understanding of what's going on under the hood
and get your hands dirty every now and then.

I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator example.
By using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using an IDE to remind
you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to construct a program.

I beg to differ. Often IDEs implement concepts of projects and other
things that are not only designed to work from the IDE, but can't work
at all unless you are in the IDE. You loose the concept of how to
construct the program outside of the context of the IDE itself. In fact,
often you can't do it at all. And I believe they also dumb down the
concept of knowing how to program too, just like they do for calculators
and math...
In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
(FrontPage excepted).
I disagree. Take a sizable application that you use your IDE for and
take it out of the IDE. I bet you'll be surprised how it's not an easy
task to do...
Anyway, even intelligent professional mathematicians wouldn't forego a
calculator if they were asked to calculate something like
123.4528*log(3. 573). They'd use the calculator because it makes their
life easier and gets the job done; that doesn't imply that they don't
understand multiplication or logarithms.

Yes, but they understand the concept behind the math involved. And, if
push came to shove, they could calculate that without the calculator...

[Jerry Stuckle]

Ramon wrote:

Your statement is that any programmer who doesn't use an IDE such as
ZEND isn't as productive as one who does.

On large scale projects *YES*.

That was not your statement. Let me quote you (again): "And anyone that
stated in this thread that they don't need anything more then textpad,
obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project. "

You did NOT say you must use one on a large scale project. You said
"ANY PROGRAMMER"...

My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.

Trying to change the subject again? But yes, there are people out there
who do.

Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make the
mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?

I'm not trying to fit anyone into anything, it is my personal opinion to
which I am entitled.

Yes, and you're saying everyone should use an IDE.

Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new guy
who thinks he's an "expert".

There are quete a few people who are of the same opinion in this thread
alone. They are all *new guys*.

And you're the one who thinks he's an expert.

And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different
than in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of
a semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from
the ground up.

Good, I am glad that we have come to an understanding at least on this.
If you don't give a shit, don't correct me or insult me, and go hide in
the hole you crawled out of. The OP asked for an opionion, which I gave
who gave you the write to critises that? Fucking armchair bandit.

I said I don't give a shit what *YOU* think. I do care when you try to
snow other programmers with your BS.

Every course has critiques of both the course material and the
trainer. And if I don't do a good job, they find someone else for the
next course.

You seem to ahve alot of time on your hands atm, not many contracts
going your way. BL.

Actually, I have more work than I want. I've had to subcontract some of
it out and/or turn some work down. But it still leaves me with
sufficient time to be on usenet. I'm doing it from my laptop in bed
right now, for instance.

Gee, you work for a community college? Or are you one of those "not
so good" lecturers?

No, actually Information Technology Services for a major reasearch based
University. 2 degrees, 1 in comp. science (australia), and 1 in Moscow's
MGU also comp. science, not that your arrogence would allow you to know
what that is.

Ah, "Education" . And yes, I do know what it is. Let me clue you -
Universities are nothing like the real world!

It is ONE way to go. Not the ONLY WAY.

CBF repeating again, even though I do realise taht repetition is
paramount here. As old dogs do... learn... well...

And maybe you will learn one day.

> And btw - I really don't think much of anyone who can't be bothered

to follow newsgroup standards. One of the standards for this newsgoup
does NOT include top posting.

That is just sad. You don't think much of me? :) My confidence is
shattered.

At least you didn't top post. You get one point for that.

--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Ramon]

> That was not your statement. Let me quote you (again): "And anyone that

stated in this thread that they don't need anything more then textpad,
obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project. " You did NOT say you must use one on a large scale project. You said
"ANY PROGRAMMER"...
Sorry let me rephrase if you are unable to read between the lines. I
mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale PHP
project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that there
will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by utilizing a
IDE is disillusioned.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.

Trying to change the subject again? But yes, there are people out there
who do.

See what I mean. Yondu just took a stand, a you are going to stand by it
no matter what :) I guess it deserves some respect.

Yes, and you're saying everyone should use an IDE.
On a large PHP project yes, would make their life, and everyone elses
life alot easier. They just need to see the light. Thing is that I've
had this argument countless times, with countless individuals, both old
and young, and they all defend what is theirs :) A routine.
Ah, "Education" . And yes, I do know what it is. Let me clue you -
Universities are nothing like the real world!
What gave you the idea that I worked all my life in a university. I've
worked for many company & personal clients of my own. I've developed
statistical marketing solutions, that would blow you away. That are used
to this day by major clothing apparell chains world wide. I'm not
talking 2 or 3 stores, I'm talking hundreds and hundreds nation wide.
All of these where as *real world* as it gets. I've only gotten into the
"education* industry recently, further more I do not teach programming,
nor have I held an educational position in my career.
And maybe you will learn one day.
I am very willing to learn, and I have mastered the art of texteditor &
VI programming a long time ago. And frankly on a large project
interfacing a dozen other large systems, it would be suicide to tred
that path. Well not really suicide, but project management would become
unworkable.
At least you didn't top post. You get one point for that.

Thanks, thanks for that. I am glad I was able to simplify your life. -
That sounds familiar ;)

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!

haha, well sure, you got me there, english isnt my first language, but
I can speak & write 4 languages fluently, how many can you? ;)

Are you counting computer languages! ;-)

Why does it matter if one can speak multiple languages anyway! I speak
'merican! That's all that matters! :-P
--
If knees were backwards, what would chairs look like?

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

That was not your statement. Let me quote you (again): "And anyone
that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more then
textpad, obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project. "

You did NOT say you must use one on a large scale project. You said
"ANY PROGRAMMER"...

Sorry let me rephrase if you are unable to read between the lines.

Instead of the rephrasing or reading between the lines why not resort to
clearly expressing yourself. No wonder you need a sophisticated IDE to
fill in the blanks.
I mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale
PHP project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that
there will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.
In your humble opinion. You do understand what the word opinion is don't
you. Because you have offered no empirical evidence for this claim...

Yes, and you're saying everyone should use an IDE.

On a large PHP project yes, would make their life, and everyone elses
life alot easier.

I fail to see how my life would get easier if I have to spend lots of
time learning how somebody's IDE is supposed to work.
They just need to see the light.
Sounds religious! Ick!
Thing is that I've had this argument countless times, with countless
individuals, both old and young, and they all defend what is theirs :)
A routine.

That should tell you something. Like perhaps maybe you're not right. Or,
gentler, that others hold differing opinions.

I use Jinzora (http://jinzora.org) on my web site. It's a fairly complex
PHP application. It's also done by two people. I doubt that they use an
IDE (I will ask...).
--
As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in public schools.