What IDE are you using?

[typingcat]

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Gw]

Currently I'm using a text editor (http://www.textpad.com being my
editor of choice) and that's been fine for the majority of projects
I've worked on, but I do miss the convenience of a powerful IDE like
DevStudio.

PHPEd from NuSphere (http://www.nusphere.com/) looks pretty good -
built in debugger, profiler, SOAP client and stuff. The trial version
is sitting on my computer, I just haven't had time to look at it yet.
Has anyone used it, and what do they think?

Cheers

Gwaredd
http://red-dawg.co.uk

[Ramon]

Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out there
other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for large
scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more
then textpad, obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project.
When you have multiple people if not teams working on the same project,
its a bloody pain in the ass to have to look up what some tool, in some
other department called a fanction and what parameters it takes.

Thats only the start, IDEs (Zend) in this case provide me with several
other features:

1) Debugger, this is a must, being able to view objects / array /
variables run time, cuts down development time by at least 50% (probably
more). Instead of having to print_r() every second line to find out
whats going on.

2) Integratted PHPDoc, those of you who came out with guns blazing
saying TextPad is all I need ra.. ra.. ra.. May not have the use for it,
but my team and I certainly do.

Integrated CVS, FTP, SFTP, Database browser, Table Browser (for most
db's including oracle 10g), Code analyser, profiler, watches,
breakpoints, projects, auto indentatio.

Thats just a few of the features that come to mind, yes Zend support is
really terrible... I mean really bad. But as far as large scale PHP
development goes you can't go past it. Yes, I understand that people
strugle with change, but you are prooving nothing to me saying that you
can do it all with TextPad. I used to be in the same shoes, sure you can
do it with TextPad, its only going to take you alot more time.
ty*******@gmail .com wrote:

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Ramon wrote:

Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out there
other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for large
scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more
then textpad, obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project.
When you have multiple people if not teams working on the same project,
its a bloody pain in the ass to have to look up what some tool, in some
other department called a fanction and what parameters it takes.

Please don't tell me what I have or have not worked on. I have been on
a couple of very large PHP projects, probably much larger than anything
you've been on (50+ programmers, several hundred K LOC).

No, it's NOT hard to determine what other departments have done. It's
called DOCUMENTATION.
Thats only the start, IDEs (Zend) in this case provide me with several
other features:

1) Debugger, this is a must, being able to view objects / array /
variables run time, cuts down development time by at least 50% (probably
more). Instead of having to print_r() every second line to find out
whats going on.

2) Integratted PHPDoc, those of you who came out with guns blazing
saying TextPad is all I need ra.. ra.. ra.. May not have the use for it,
but my team and I certainly do.

Integrated CVS, FTP, SFTP, Database browser, Table Browser (for most
db's including oracle 10g), Code analyser, profiler, watches,
breakpoints, projects, auto indentatio.

Thats just a few of the features that come to mind, yes Zend support is
really terrible... I mean really bad. But as far as large scale PHP
development goes you can't go past it. Yes, I understand that people
strugle with change, but you are prooving nothing to me saying that you
can do it all with TextPad. I used to be in the same shoes, sure you can
do it with TextPad, its only going to take you alot more time.

Sure, Zend has some advantages. Some or the people on the projects used
it. Others didn't.

I don't object to change. I tried Zend. The debugger is great. But
the IDE was too slow and limiting.

I'm not saying Zend or other IDE's are bad. They aren't. But what
works for one person does not work for every person. I work much faster
with a text editor than when using Zend. And most of our most
experienced programmers found the same. The newer programmers were more
likely to use Zend or some other IDE.

Interestingly enough, it was the most experienced programmers with their
text editors who invariably had the highest production and fewest errors.
--
=============== ===
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attgl obal.net
=============== ===

[Andrew DeFaria]

ty*******@gmail .com wrote:

So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor?
I use XEmacs...
Well, many computer gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it
take too much time for a novice like to remember all the members and
functions or look them up in the manual?
That's why god invented the web! ;-)

One window in XEmacs, one in Firefox at http://php.net... And one OS to
bind them all... :-)
I think code completion and class view really helps people like me.

That might be nice but it doesn't beat dabbrev mode where one can not
only code complete function names but anything like variable names, etc.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Oli Filth wrote:

True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.
Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

Of what benefit is there to be using functions that you don't know
intimately?!?

Perhaps it's clearest benefit is the realization that any such library
that has hundreds/thousands of functions is way to complex to be using!
That's just a massive pain in the arse, and surely must slow you down
considerably, especially when you only find you made a mistake at
run-time... You might as well be programming in assembler if you like
it raw! :)
Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people still
program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm
Admittedly, the benefit of class-views etc. must be somewhat limited
for a dynamically-typed language like PHP. But in strongly-typed
languages like C++, C# or Java that have *massive* APIs, intellisense
and class-views etc. are an absolute god-send.

IMO, being a good programmer is not about knowing the fine details of
the language syntax; syntax is just a means to an end.

Being a good programmer is understanding the nature and workings of the
code you write and the code you use.

[Gary L. Burnore]

On 23 Oct 2005 09:00:05 -0700, ty*******@gmail .com top posted like a
newbie and wrote:

So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor? Well, many computer
gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it take too much time for
a novice like to remember all the members and functions or look them up
in the manual? I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.

If by "people like me" you mean people who really don't want to take
the time to learn, then yeah, it helps. You're relying on whomever
wrote the code completion to "know what you meant to do". Hardly a
good thing.

--
gburnore at DataBasix dot Com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How you look depends on where you go.
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Black Helicopter Repair Services, Ltd.| Official Proof of Purchase
=============== =============== =============== =============== ===============

[Troy]

I recommend PHPDesigner 2005, and it's free.
http://www.mpsoftware.dk/
On 23 Oct 2005 02:32:48 -0700, ty*******@gmail .com wrote:

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Justin Koivisto]

Oli Filth wrote:

Janwillem Borleffs said the following on 23/10/2005 17:06:

ty*******@gmail .com wrote:

So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor? Well, many computer
gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it take too much time for
a novice like to remember all the members and functions or look them
up in the manual? I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.
True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.

Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

I for one have used a text editor for PHP coding for the better part of
5 years now. Recently, I started using Zend Studio. Sure all the code
completion and such is nice and *might* save you time when you are using
functions that aren't part of your daily routine, but if you have only
ever used IDEs and not memorized function names, syntax and return
cases, where would you be when you notice that something is very bad on
your site and you don't have access to your computer (or any computer)
with the IDE installed? I find that having had to memorize most of the
common functions and syntax has helped me tremendously for speed as well
as being able to handle a crisis if needed.
That's just a massive pain in the arse, and surely must slow you down
considerably, especially when you only find you made a mistake at
run-time... You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it
raw! :)
That's a stretch... it may be a pain for some, but anyone who started
programming C with vi knows what it is like. Assembler isn't even a
comparison to these top-level languages - especially when you're talking
perl and/or php where most of the function names document the code by
themselves...
Admittedly, the benefit of class-views etc. must be somewhat limited for
a dynamically-typed language like PHP. But in strongly-typed languages
like C++, C# or Java that have *massive* APIs, intellisense and
class-views etc. are an absolute god-send.
I find the class views (as in ZDE) to be great! I don't use them all the
time, but when I can look into one of my classes from long ago with a
class view and know exactly what type of value is returned without
searching the code itself... words can't explain.

That said, the decision to use an IDE or text editor for PHP completely
depends on the type of programmer you are. There are pros and cons for
both, and it is up to the developer to decide which route to go. I think
that this is a strength for languages like PHP 9or perl, c, Java, etc.)
- you don't have to have a specific IDE or route to develop your
application...

When's the last time you tried to create a VisualBasic project with a
text editor? How many times did you want to open a VB project in a text
editor to make a simple little change? Maybe not many in this group, but
I for one...
IMO, being a good programmer is not about knowing the fine details of
the language syntax; syntax is just a means to an end.

I wish I could remember who, but there was a quote that goes something
like: "Any monkey can be taught to learn a programming language - it's
just syntax. However, show me one monkey that has been taught
programming logic, and I'll give you a billion dollars."

--
Justin Koivisto, ZCE - ju****@koivi.co m
http://koivi.com

[Oli Filth]

Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:

Oli Filth wrote:

Janwillem Borleffs said the following on 23/10/2005 17:06:

True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.

Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

Sure all the code
completion and such is nice and *might* save you time when you are using
functions that aren't part of your daily routine, but if you have only
ever used IDEs and not memorized function names, syntax and return
cases, where would you be when you notice that something is very bad on
your site and you don't have access to your computer (or any computer)
with the IDE installed? I find that having had to memorize most of the
common functions and syntax has helped me tremendously for speed as well
as being able to handle a crisis if needed.

I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a compiler
(e.g. C), the point is moot...

You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it raw! :)

That's a stretch... it may be a pain for some, but anyone who started
programming C with vi knows what it is like. Assembler isn't even a
comparison to these top-level languages - especially when you're talking
perl and/or php where most of the function names document the code by
themselves...

Yup, I was taking it to the logical extreme, I know! My point was along
the lines of "why forego modern technology that's there to make your
life easier?".
--
Oli

[Oli Filth]

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 24/10/2005 22:15:

Oli Filth wrote:

True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.

Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

Of what benefit is there to be using functions that you don't know
intimately?!?

Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve by
using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_crea te() or
XmlParserCreate () or xmlParserCreate () (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystac k, $needle)) is nothing but
an exercise in trivia.

Of course, you can flick to the online manual and find out, but that
must be at least 20 times slower (not to mention disruptive to the
coding "flow") than simply typing the first few letters into an IDE and
then pressing Tab for auto-complete (or the equivalent).

Perhaps it's clearest benefit is the realization that any such library
that has hundreds/thousands of functions is way to complex to be using!

Unfortunately, most APIs are necessarily complex...

You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it raw! :)

Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people still
program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm

Yup, I still do too ;) But only for embedded stuff.
--
Oli