What IDE are you using?

[typingcat]

First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.

Personally I wouldn't touch .NET with a 10 foot pole! It's, from what I
hear, the ultimate in unnecessary complication.

Listen, while function completion, syntax highlighting and the like are
cool, I spend far more of my time doing basic editing than just function
calls or function call headers. Editing of characters, lines, code - my
code, is what is done more often. While an IDE might gain me some
convenience in the areas of function call completion it's not where I
spend the majority of my time. Having to sit and learn all the
functionality, and worse yet, lose of functionality, in plain text
editing would be a major productivity hit to me.

Additionally, as a scripter and system admin, I deal in a plethora of
languages, including, but not limited to, PHP, Perl, Bash, Awk, HTML,
sed, Visual Basic (Yes unfortunately), etc. XEmacs handles all of them
with ease and similarity, whereas an IDE geared toward PHP probably
wouldn't handle Bash very easily. And having, installing, configuring,
learning and keeping up to day 5 different IDEs for 5 different
scripting languages was never something I've aspired to do...

Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make
the mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?

I'm not trying to fit anyone into anything, it is my personal opinion
to which I am entitled.

You are as entitled to your opinion as we are to ours...

Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new
guy who thinks he's an "expert".

There are quete a few people who are of the same opinion in this
thread alone. They are all *new guys*.

Again, McDonalds food is popular - it ain't, however, good food...

And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different
than in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of
a semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from
the ground up.

Good, I am glad that we have come to an understanding at least on
this. If you don't give a shit, don't correct me or insult me, and go
hide in the hole you crawled out of. The OP asked for an opionion,
which I gave who gave you the write to critises that? Fucking armchair
bandit.

As you say, is he not also entitled to his opinion? (As am I?)
--
I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control!

[Ramon]

> Instead of the rephrasing or reading between the lines why not resort to

clearly expressing yourself. No wonder you need a sophisticated IDE to
fill in the blanks.
I expressed my self very clearly the first time round, some people just
need a little more explanation and/or persuasion.

I mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale
PHP project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that
there will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.

In your humble opinion. You do understand what the word opinion is don't
you. Because you have offered no empirical evidence for this claim...

Well, yes it is, and I have provided evidence, have a browse through
some earlier posts.

I fail to see how my life would get easier if I have to spend lots of
time learning how somebody's IDE is supposed to work.
That statement alone sums up your attitude, and attitudes of people like
you. Somebodies IDE... So why did you learn and are using someone's OS?
At least if you trying to argue, make a frail attempt to have one, an
argument that is. The above is just pathetic.

They just need to see the light.

Sounds religious! Ick!

O.. k.. what are you 12?

Thing is that I've had this argument countless times, with countless
individuals, both old and young, and they all defend what is theirs :)
A routine.

That should tell you something. Like perhaps maybe you're not right. Or,
gentler, that others hold differing opinions.

No it tells me one thing, which I've allways known to be true, people
are stubborn and are afraid of change.
I use Jinzora (http://jinzora.org) on my web site. It's a fairly complex
PHP application. It's also done by two people. I doubt that they use an
IDE (I will ask...).

Sure, why don't you ask them what PHP framework they used, what year
they developed it in? How many years it took em? What would make their
life easier? And then see if a IDE feature fits that description, and
I'm sure you will find your answer.

Comeon man at least Jerry had some semi valid arguments based on the
real world, you are talking completely out of your ass. I'm not even
going to start on the personal attacks you made on my spelling and
grammar. Considering with the internet, global villege etc. You would
think people can see past these differences. Like not being able to
speak or write flawlessly. But hey, from the above it is evident you are
not worth the chair you are sitting on.

So, I'll refrain from correspondance in your direction, and I'd like to
ask you that you refrain from any in mine. And let my argument with
Jerry continue without your petty bullshit.

That is all. Thanks.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

Instead of the rephrasing or reading between the lines why not resort
to clearly expressing yourself. No wonder you need a sophisticated
IDE to fill in the blanks.
I expressed my self very clearly the first time round, some people
just need a little more explanation and/or persuasion.

Demonstrably false. As has been quoted you said "all programmers" yet
later you clarify that to mean something else. You are not being clear
in your expression if you have to change "all programmers" to something
else. It is a miscommunicatio n on your part, plain and simple.

I mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale
PHP project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that
there will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.

In your humble opinion. You do understand what the word opinion is
don't you. Because you have offered no empirical evidence for this
claim...

Well, yes it is, and I have provided evidence, have a browse through
some earlier posts.

I've been reading the thread. You've offered your opinion. You have not
presented any qualitative data.

I fail to see how my life would get easier if I have to spend lots of
time learning how somebody's IDE is supposed to work.

That statement alone sums up your attitude, and attitudes of people
like you. Somebodies IDE...

No it sums up reality! Or are you claiming it's somehow not reality that
there would be a learning curve to adjust to some new IDE?
So why did you learn and are using someone's OS?
That sir is irrelevant! I've already learned somebody's OS (Actually
I've learned quite a few). And, more to the point, I've spent the time
to learn a particular editor which suits me quite well. As such, if you
want to sell your idea, and indeed you are selling your idea of using
yet another tool that I will have to learn, you need to provide
justification. Your justification is that it helps you with some things.
My contentions are 1) it ain't that much of a help and 2) it requires
more effort than I deem worthwhile to learn how to do old things a new
way with very little potential that there will be much gain in
productivity of every day things that I do way more than just complete
function calls. In fact I know that I'll lose lots of functionality that
my current editor provides that this new IDE just will not provide.
At least if you trying to argue, make a frail attempt to have one, an
argument that is. The above is just pathetic.
It's reality. Face it instead of run away from it by trying to dismiss
it. People will not change their habits unless they perceive an
advantage in doing so. You've presented your weak case as to why you
think it's beneficial. Are you really that surprised that some may
disagree with your opinion?

They just need to see the light.

Sounds religious! Ick!

O.. k.. what are you 12?

Nope. I'm 45. But that's funny because that's exactly what I think when
I talk to religious types. It's the same old bullshit "I know better
than you. You will eventually see the light". As an atheist I say "Yeah
I saw that light a long time ago and perhaps at some time in the future
you'll see the light I'm now seeing". Same is true for IDEs. Same
religious like argument...

Thing is that I've had this argument countless times, with countless
individuals, both old and young, and they all defend what is theirs
:) A routine.

That should tell you something. Like perhaps maybe you're not right.
Or, gentler, that others hold differing opinions.

No it tells me one thing, which I've allways known to be true, people
are stubborn and are afraid of change.

You're barking up the wrong tree here pal. I have no problem with
change. I do have a problem with change with little gain however. Look,
if all I did was PHP coding in large projects you'd perhaps have a
point. In fact I'd probably be using a PHP based IDE. But that's not
what I do. I code in many different languages and quite frankly having a
specialized IDE for each language would be way too much of a bother than
be considered any sort of productivity gain to me. IOW it wouldn't bring
me, in particular, any benefit. Is that really so difficult to
understand? That not everybody thinks like you nor wants to have your
environment? Pure arrogance on your part!

I use Jinzora (http://jinzora.org) on my web site. It's a fairly
complex PHP application. It's also done by two people. I doubt that
they use an IDE (I will ask...).

Sure, why don't you ask them what PHP framework they used, what year
they developed it in?

PHP framework they developed in? Isn't that totally irrelevant? We are
not talking framework rather we are talking IDE. I would pose the
question and I will but their system is under maintenance at the moment.
How many years it took em?
You want me to ask them that too? Does it really matter? After all it's
just two guys. My guess is they probably did it in way less time than
you and your mob of developers would have taken.... Then again I would
need a sizable application that you have developed in order to compare
the two...
What would make their life easier?
Who cares? And why do you feel the need to interject on them what you
think they need? If they are happy where there are at why should it
matter to you?
And then see if a IDE feature fits that description, and I'm sure you
will find your answer.
You're the salesman not I. They are just coders....
Comeon man at least Jerry had some semi valid arguments based on the
real world, you are talking completely out of your ass.
Oh yeah. So Jinzora is not real world. What is the real world for you? I
suppose you think my personal experience (again way longer than your
career) is also not real world experience. Well let me tell you - it is
indeed my real world and I'm living it.
I'm not even going to start on the personal attacks you made on my
spelling and grammar.
Sorry your spelling and grammar suck but that's really not something I
can help you with...
Considering with the internet, global villege etc.
Oh so you think because it's the Internet things like language don't
matter? Communication is communication. Get used to it!
You would think people can see past these differences.
Why should I have to?
Like not being able to speak or write flawlessly.
You mean not being able to communicate correctly nor effectively. Ah yes
I know that's an excuse that many people use. Then again it's an excuse
like any other. Tell me, what's wrong with communicating correctly?
But hey, from the above it is evident you are not worth the chair you
are sitting on.
I get paid very well thank you. Probably much more than you. I do not
need you to validate me.
So, I'll refrain from correspondance in your direction,
Oh wonderful. I'll mark my calendar in celebration.
and I'd like to ask you that you refrain from any in mine.
Sorry bud but I communicate with whoever I want to. You can ask all you
want. You'll just be disappointed.
And let my argument with Jerry continue without your petty bullshit.

Sorry you think it's petty. Guess you're gonna have to live with that...
--
Young at heart. Slightly older in other places.

[Ramon]

> You're barking up the wrong tree here pal. I have no problem with

change. I do have a problem with change with little gain however. Look,
if all I did was PHP coding in large projects you'd perhaps have a
point. In fact I'd probably be using a PHP based IDE. But that's not
what I do. I code in many different languages and quite frankly having a
specialized IDE for each language would be way too much of a bother than
be considered any sort of productivity gain to me. IOW it wouldn't bring
me, in particular, any benefit. Is that really so difficult to
understand? That not everybody thinks like you nor wants to have your
environment? Pure arrogance on your part!

Quote from my original post:

"Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out there
other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for *large*
scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more
then text pad, obviously have not worked on a *large* scale PHP project."

Which you obviously not read, my argument was only about large PHP
projects!!! What hints to that is *large* being scattered all the way
though that post, furthermore I said IMO.

So what am I to argue now?
That perhaps the problem isn't my communications skills?
But more your comprehension skills?
Or should I argue that you lied about having been *following* this thread?

You decide.
Actually do us all a favor and don't.

Because I'm sure there wont be: "Oh shit sorry, mate, I really started
hanging shit on you for no reason other then your bad spelling and
grammar". Because your unmeasurable ego wont let you. And you know what
the best thing is? Is that you know that I'm right. ;)

Oh yeah I noticed you some how managed to grab my *you are not worth the
chair you are sitting in* comment and turn it into something
materialistic, while I was simply referring to your integrity and moral
foundation, or should I say the lack of.

How's that for effective communication? Not bad, for a person who
started learning English at 15 ;)

Anyway, I'm. going home.. its been entertaining, well until Jerry left?
or went to bed, as he said he was in one.

[Andrew DeFaria]

Ramon wrote:

You're barking up the wrong tree here pal. I have no problem with
change. I do have a problem with change with little gain however.
Look, if all I did was PHP coding in large projects you'd perhaps
have a point. In fact I'd probably be using a PHP based IDE. But
that's not what I do. I code in many different languages and quite
frankly having a specialized IDE for each language would be way too
much of a bother than be considered any sort of productivity gain to
me. IOW it wouldn't bring me, in particular, any benefit. Is that
really so difficult to understand? That not everybody thinks like you
nor wants to have your environment? Pure arrogance on your part!
Quote from my original post:

"Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out
there other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for
*large* scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything
more then text pad, obviously have not worked on a *large* scale PHP
project."

Which you obviously not read, my argument was only about large PHP
projects!!!

Perhaps it was all of those grammatical errors that threw me. You know
things like "Which you obviously not read" which I suspect you really
meant "Which you obviously did not read..." and things like "IMO
opinion" which translates to "In My Opinion opinion". Guess I'm not sure
what an "opinion opinion" is really...

In any event, the fact still stands that IDEs aren't for everybody as
not everybody is limited to only coding PHP (or any other language for
that matter) let alone the fact that other people have differing
opinions than your arrogant one.
What hints to that is *large* being scattered all the way though that
post, furthermore I said IMO.

So what am I to argue now?
That perhaps the problem isn't my communications skills?
But more your comprehension skills?
Try correct English... Then we'll talk. ;-)
Or should I argue that you lied about having been *following* this
thread?
Didn't lie. Don't spend much time trying to sort out other peoples
communication difficulties though I must admit.

While we're at it you might want to explain why you are confused with my
statement (paraphrased here) in which I stated that I don't only code in
PHP. Exactly which part of that are you having difficult understanding?
I will help you with your English comprehension.. .
You decide.
Actually do us all a favor and don't.
No such favors granted... You do not speak for everybody (though you
arrogantly think you do).
Because I'm sure there wont be: "Oh shit sorry, mate, I really started
hanging shit on you for no reason other then your bad spelling and
grammar".
Yeah don't go holding your breath mate. ("Mate"? Makes you sound
English. And with such bad command of the language...)
Because your unmeasurable ego wont let you.
No there's that silly little thing about reality and truth that always
gets in my way.... Sorry about that.
And you know what the best thing is? Is that you know that I'm right. ;)
Not quite. I know that you are wrong however...
Oh yeah I noticed you some how managed to grab my *you are not worth
the chair you are sitting in* comment and turn it into something
materialistic, while I was simply referring to your integrity and
moral foundation, or should I say the lack of.
My integrity and moral foundation are thankfully still fully intact. I
speak from true experience and thus am unaffected by your drivel...

But I must point out, if you did not mean what you said then why did you
bother saying it?!?
How's that for effective communication?
Overall I'd grade it a C+. ;-)
Not bad, for a person who started learning English at 15 ;)
What in god's name were you waiting for... Mate! :-)
Anyway, I'm. going home.. its been entertaining, well until Jerry
left? or went to bed, as he said he was in one.

Glad to make your night. Sorry to say you did not make mine...
--
Why do you always turn down your radio when looking for an address?

[jussij]

Ramon wrote:

Sorry let me rephrase if you are unable to read between
the lines. I mean in theory you could do anything with
notepad,
I don't think anyone is suggesting the use of notepad. I
mean you could also use edlin if that takes your fancy ;)
it is not very effective on a large scale project.
Any yes... PHP programmer, that claims that a simple text
editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale PHP project,
using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that there
will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.
The only problem with this argument is just because you
find it impossible to work efficiently with a text editor,
that does not automatically mean others will be the same.

The output of a programmer is text, so the efficency of
a programmer can be measured by the lines of code they
produce and the quality of that output.

So why is it so difficult to believe that some people WILL
code faster (ie are more efficient) using a text editor they
are familiar with, rather than an IDE to which they are not?
I am very willing to learn, and I have mastered the art of
texteditor & VI programming a long time ago. And frankly on
a large project interfacing a dozen other large systems, it
would be suicide to tred that path.

Once again, all this means is you might have mastered the art
of using a text editor, but you failed to master the task of
developing large project with anything other than an IDE.

It does not mean it is not possible.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows IDE
http://www.zeusedit.com

[Geoff Berrow]

A waste of electrons? You decide, but Message-ID:
<dj***********@ bunyip2.cc.uq.e du.au> from Ramon contained the following:

My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.

But for deep understanding you can't beat a plain vanilla text editor.
It's the difference between learning to drive in a car with a manual
gearbox as opposed to an automatic.

And I'm an old dog who has learned a few new tricks.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

[Oli Filth]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Oli Filth wrote:

Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve
by using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_crea te() or
XmlParserCreate () or xmlParserCreate () (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystac k, $needle)) is nothing
but an exercise in trivia.

No, to me it's a sign that you don't know the function well enough...
I repeat my original point - where's the benefit in learning the
precise syntax for thousands of functions, especially custom functions
that may not be documented, or unfamiliar libraries?

And I will repeat mine: What good is it *not *to be familar with the
function call in question?

I'm not suggesting that one should try *not* to learn function syntax!
If you remember the syntax of all the functions you ever use, great!
The functions I use all the time, of course I know them off by heart by
force of habit.

However, I make no special effort to commit to memory
functions/functionality that I use once in a blue moon (e.g. in the
case of PHP, the rare occasion when I do need to use imagejpeg(), or
the optional arguments to preg_match_all( )), because with a decent IDE
there's no need!

And you shouldn't have thousands of functions! If you got that much then
you should break things into smaller , more manageable pieces.

I was referring mainly to "built-in" functions, i.e. API functions.

But even user-written functions, it's hardly uncommon to have hundreds
of functions even in a relatively trivial application, is it? Yes, you
can encapsulate them by good use of OOP design, but ultimately there
are still hundreds of functions that have to be called at some point.

It doesn't make one a better programmer (in the sense of understanding
how to design and construct functional, elegant programs and code),

Sure it does.

How?

and is error-prone (in the sense that you have to wait until run-time
to spot your mistakes that would otherwise have been picked up by
syntax highlighting, or wouldn't have been there in the first place
due to autocompletion) .

Who says that XEmacs, for example, doesn't do syntax highlighting?!?

Well, I wasn't referring to XEmacs when I wrote that, but I get the
impression from this thread that some people seem to write their code
in something little more advanced than Notepad ;)

Depends. Larger APIs ultimately afford you greater flexibility. You
probably couldn't shrink, for example, the Windows or Java APIs
without losing functionality and/or flexibility.

How many applications do you write that actually use more than a handful
of those APIs? And the Windows and Java APIs are not great examples of
well engineered and well thought out APIs, IMHO...

Do you have an example of an API (non-trivial, such as for an entire
framework e.g. MFC or Swing) that you would call "well thought out",
out of curiosity?

Well if you read the page you would see he write *all* of his
applications in assembly...

Yeah, I noticed that. IMO, that's a pointless waste of time, unless
he's doing it purely for the academic exercise. :)

You would argue that writing things efficiently is a pointless waste of
time. That speaks more about you than it does about me. Granted, I don't
write tight assembly code for my apps but I sure know enough to
appreciate somebody who does instead of calling his work pointless!

WOT, but...

Have you heard of the 80/20 rule (possibly the 90/10 rule)? The fact
that in most non-trivial applications, 80% of the execution time is
spent in 20% of the code, normally short data-intensive processing
loops, e.g. FFTs, low-level parsing, image-processing, etc. Sure,
optimise *those*, I agree; that wouldn't be pointless at all.

But optimising the other 80% of the code is a case of diminishing
returns; it simply won't make a worthwhile difference, because it's not
the rate-limiting bottleneck. Optimising, for instance, the GUI so that
it responds to a key-press 1 microsecond faster is of no benefit to
anyone (except perhaps in the case of low-level I/O hooks); no-one's
going to notice, and you'll probably have spent several hours in the
process.

Also, the fact that modern optimising compilers are, on the whole,
pretty good, means that the majority of your application binary won't
be any smaller or faster by writing the assembler yourself.

And the inordinate amount of time it would take to rewrite in assembler
what would be trivial code in C strikes me as grossly time-ineffective,
except in the case of the big bottle-necks (the 20%).

Not to mention that a whole application in pure assembler would be far
more error-prone, difficult to debug, difficult to maintain, difficult
to extend, and difficult to read as it affords no data abstraction -
the whole point of higher-level concepts such as data-types or OOP.

--
Oli

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Geoff Berrow wrote:

A waste of electrons? You decide, but Message-ID:
<dj***********@ bunyip2.cc.uq.e du.au> from Ramon contained the following:

My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.

But for deep understanding you can't beat a plain vanilla text editor.
It's the difference between learning to drive in a car with a manual
gearbox as opposed to an automatic.

And I'm an old dog who has learned a few new tricks.

Hmm... I don't have a car, but I'm sure IDE's will speed up the work
almost or at least to double than in text editors:-)

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

[Oli Filth]

Andrew DeFaria wrote:

Oli Filth wrote:

Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:29:

Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.
I was refuting the idea that you could fix code errors on any PC
without "specialist " tools. That only applies for script-based
languages, and therefore isn't a general rule. Wasn't very clear
originally, I admit!

Sorry, still doesn't compute. What stops one from logging into a system
and tweaking and recompiling say a C program? Ah are you locked into MS
VisualStudio? Well lookee here! Another monolithic IDE application!
Which, of course, points to another reason why IDEs are indeed bad. It
seems you are admitting that without them you cannot work!

Whether the compiler and linker are built into an IDE or stand-alone,
you still need access to a compiler/linker in order to recompile and
rebuild after a code change, hence "'specialis t' tools" in my earlier
point. I wasn't suggesting that the need for a compiler "dictates the
need for an IDE", simply that the previous argument (that not relying
on an IDE means you can work anywhere easily) isn't generally true.

You see it starts off with "Gee this is cool because it colors the
syntax. And look here it bring up the relevant documentation! And auto
completes. Cool, cool, cool. And I can drag and drop my files into this
project thingy and not have to think about make files" then progresses
to the point where, without the monolithic IDE application and your
"environmen t" you effectively can't work - and that's bad!

It kind of goes back to the "pain in the arse" argument. I *could*
write an entire application in Notepad/XEmacs/generic-text-editor, it
would just be a pain in the arse! The tools offered by the IDE greatly
increase my productivity, without detracting from my *understanding* of
my code (in the logical/design-structure sense) in any way.

I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator example.
By using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using an IDE to remind
you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to construct a program.

I beg to differ. Often IDEs implement concepts of projects and other
things that are not only designed to work from the IDE, but can't work
at all unless you are in the IDE. You loose the concept of how to
construct the program outside of the context of the IDE itself.

Ah, perhaps I should've been clearer - when I said "construct" , I guess
I meant "design", as in the design of class hierarchy, data-types,
algorithms, data abstraction, etc., not the physical implementation of
dividing into source files, using makefiles, source control, etc.

But then, knowing how to build a C app via the command-line, etc.
doesn't really offer much insight into how to build a Java app via the
command-line, nor how to perform gate-synthesis from VHDL without the
IDE. (The point being that the argument that knowing how to do it from
basics is a more fundamental/universally-applicable skill doesn't
necessarily follow either).

In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
(FrontPage excepted).

I disagree. Take a sizable application that you use your IDE for and
take it out of the IDE. I bet you'll be surprised how it's not an easy
task to do...

Isn't that more a compatability issue? Clearly a C++ project done in MS
VS won't work in the Borland IDE "straight out of the box", for
example.

--
Oli