C# developers going back to vb.net

[Kevin]

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[JamesKK]

You know; I did the route of QBasic, Pascal, some Fortran and even a little
COBOL in the last twenty or so years. What's interesting to me is that the
primary language builders are wanting to give the developers more and more
tools to use in order to craft great programs from the UI and back. We're
not limited to a small subset of the language anymore. If you have not been
at least exposed to the old, how can any of the other replies to this post be
negative about the new??? Both C# and VB.NET are robust and extremely
powerful. My company was using VB6 when I got here and I moved them up to
VB.NET. We had a couple of outsiders write code in C# that I am also
supporting and have found that I like the languages equally. As far as the
move back to VB.Net, the industry is going to go with where they have the
greatest selection. There are many more VB.Net Developers than C#.

"Kevin" wrote:

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

James,

In my opinon is yours one of the best answers in this message thread.
(I did not read them all)

Just *my* opinon of course.

Cor

[riscy]

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.

As matter of interest, I heard that the .net framework library was
orginally written in C# (!).

It all down to personal perference really...becaus e of the JIT, the
result outcome is the same.

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Riscy,

Yes, and I would probably do that as well in C#.

In my opinon is for those things C# a better program language than VB.Net

As written just my opinion.

Cor

[wbradney]

Mike, that was well put, and matches my experiences on this topic almost
exactly.

Kevin, you seem to be itching for somebody to say it, so I'll be the one to
bite and make the contentious remark:

VB(v3-6) has of late started to be found out for the 'toy' language it is,
and programmers who can only claim VB on their resumes are not looked upon as
'serious' programmers. I happen to mostly disagree with this, but that's what
I hear and see all the time talking to programmers and managers in my field,
and there is a kernel of truth to it. When looking at resumes I'm looking for
a deep history of programming in several languages, with OO analysis and
design experience paramount. This person has likely used C/C++/Java
extensively. Someone who only has VB history is unlikely to make the short
list unless they can clearly demonstrate a SOFTWARE ENGINEERING mentality, vs
a WORDS-PER-MINUTE mentality. I'm sure my company is not the only one who
sees it this way.

I myself have my roots in C/C++ programming on VAX and Unix platforms, and
have also spent many years in VB(v3-6) and Java, and now .NET (notice I said
..NET and not C# or VB.Net, because I don't think it really matters). In all
that time the only periods where I felt that I was not really in control and
was using the 'Fisher-Price' language was when using VB(v3-6). .NET was like
a breath of fresh air. A real OO language + RAD + VM = productivity +
maintainability + reuse.

The key issues are as stated by Mike. I like C# specifically for those
things it *doesn't* allow, and that VB.Net does, because I approach problems
primarily as a software engineer and not as a programmer.

"Mike Hofer" wrote:

"Kevin" wrote:

This is actually what I was getting at in my original post.
Why the move from vb 6 to c# in the first place? This just adds more
complexity, not only a new enviroment but a new language syntax as
well, can you imagine the buggy code in this situation. I think this is
why ex vb developers are moving back to vb.net from c# for this exact
same reason. Looks like you made the right decision moving from Visual
C/C++ to C++.Net or C#, at least you are familiar and enjoy the c style
syntax and all that needs to be done is to learn the enviroment and
framework. Imagine if you had to go to VB.Net because you got paid more
or your manager was under the impression that VB.Net is the native
language on the .Net framework.

There are a plethora of reasons to move from VB 6 or VB.NET to C#. For
myself, they include the following:

1.) Broadening my skillset. I *like* to learn knew technologies. I like
knowing several different languages, and being able to choose the one that's
most suitable for the job at hand.

2.) Operator overloading. Visual Basic doesn't support it. (Yet.) C# does.

3.) I already knew C++ and Java; the migration from Java to C# wasn't all
that steep.

4.) C# is far more typesafe than Visual Basic. Visual Basic allows you to be
less strict by omitting Option Strict. In a team environment, that can be a
huge source of difficult to track bugs. C# code is always strict.

5.) Coding in C# helps me to break many of the bad habits I developed over
the years as a sloppy Visual Basic developer, and which still cling to me.
Things like the use of the ubiquitous Left(), Right(), Mid(), Upper() and
Lower() functions. Also, Visual Basic .NET still has support for modules,
which promote the use of global variables. Global Variables == DOOOOOOOOOOM.
C# has no direct support for modules (that I'm aware of--someone please
correct me if I'm wrong so that I can avoid it like the plague). C# makes me
write better code, and design better software by avoiding constructs and
VB-specific features.

As far as the whole "herd mentality" thing goes, I think you could flip that
argument around with equal effectiveness. For years, companies pushed Visual
Basic as the one and only tool for development of software. VAST amounts of
software was written in Visual Basic and most of it, in my experience, was
*crap* developed by developers who had no formal training (myself included)
and which wasn't designed for growth, stability, testability, extensibility,
or any of the other core attributes that make for high quality software.
Maintaining that software has been the bane of my existence since 1991.

At any rate, a lot of VB followers joined the VB herd because it was the
popular thing to do. The "herd mentality" also is responsible for letting
ridiculous hold-overs from VB6 creep into .NET. (1-based collections? ReDim
takes the upper index as its argument?! Come on!!!)

Now, having said all that, it's worth pointing out that I am a huge fan of
VB.NET, and still use it every day. I am moving towards C# because I think it
will make me a better programmer by enforcing better coding standards. Does
that make VB.NET a crap tool? Of course not. Does moving to C# make me less
than a man? Allow me to clear that up for you.

Not only no, but HELL no.

[Kevin Spencer]

> I like C# specifically for those

things it *doesn't* allow, and that VB.Net does, because I approach
problems
primarily as a software engineer and not as a programmer.
Now, that is a concise expression of something of great importance. Like C,
C# is very strict, and the more powerful a technology is, the more strict it
ought to be.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"wbradney" <wb******@discu ssions.microsof t.com> wrote in message
news:37******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... Mike, that was well put, and matches my experiences on this topic almost
exactly.

Kevin, you seem to be itching for somebody to say it, so I'll be the one
to
bite and make the contentious remark:

VB(v3-6) has of late started to be found out for the 'toy' language it is,
and programmers who can only claim VB on their resumes are not looked upon
as
'serious' programmers. I happen to mostly disagree with this, but that's
what
I hear and see all the time talking to programmers and managers in my
field,
and there is a kernel of truth to it. When looking at resumes I'm looking
for
a deep history of programming in several languages, with OO analysis and
design experience paramount. This person has likely used C/C++/Java
extensively. Someone who only has VB history is unlikely to make the short
list unless they can clearly demonstrate a SOFTWARE ENGINEERING mentality,
vs
a WORDS-PER-MINUTE mentality. I'm sure my company is not the only one who
sees it this way.

I myself have my roots in C/C++ programming on VAX and Unix platforms, and
have also spent many years in VB(v3-6) and Java, and now .NET (notice I
said
.NET and not C# or VB.Net, because I don't think it really matters). In
all
that time the only periods where I felt that I was not really in control
and
was using the 'Fisher-Price' language was when using VB(v3-6). .NET was
like
a breath of fresh air. A real OO language + RAD + VM = productivity +
maintainability + reuse.

The key issues are as stated by Mike. I like C# specifically for those
things it *doesn't* allow, and that VB.Net does, because I approach
problems
primarily as a software engineer and not as a programmer.

"Mike Hofer" wrote:

"Kevin" wrote:

> This is actually what I was getting at in my original post.
> Why the move from vb 6 to c# in the first place? This just adds more
> complexity, not only a new enviroment but a new language syntax as
> well, can you imagine the buggy code in this situation. I think this is
> why ex vb developers are moving back to vb.net from c# for this exact
> same reason. Looks like you made the right decision moving from Visual
> C/C++ to C++.Net or C#, at least you are familiar and enjoy the c style
> syntax and all that needs to be done is to learn the enviroment and
> framework. Imagine if you had to go to VB.Net because you got paid more
> or your manager was under the impression that VB.Net is the native
> language on the .Net framework.

There are a plethora of reasons to move from VB 6 or VB.NET to C#. For
myself, they include the following:

1.) Broadening my skillset. I *like* to learn knew technologies. I like
knowing several different languages, and being able to choose the one
that's
most suitable for the job at hand.

2.) Operator overloading. Visual Basic doesn't support it. (Yet.) C#
does.

3.) I already knew C++ and Java; the migration from Java to C# wasn't all
that steep.

4.) C# is far more typesafe than Visual Basic. Visual Basic allows you to
be
less strict by omitting Option Strict. In a team environment, that can be
a
huge source of difficult to track bugs. C# code is always strict.

5.) Coding in C# helps me to break many of the bad habits I developed
over
the years as a sloppy Visual Basic developer, and which still cling to
me.
Things like the use of the ubiquitous Left(), Right(), Mid(), Upper() and
Lower() functions. Also, Visual Basic .NET still has support for modules,
which promote the use of global variables. Global Variables ==
DOOOOOOOOOOM.
C# has no direct support for modules (that I'm aware of--someone please
correct me if I'm wrong so that I can avoid it like the plague). C# makes
me
write better code, and design better software by avoiding constructs and
VB-specific features.

As far as the whole "herd mentality" thing goes, I think you could flip
that
argument around with equal effectiveness. For years, companies pushed
Visual
Basic as the one and only tool for development of software. VAST amounts
of
software was written in Visual Basic and most of it, in my experience,
was
*crap* developed by developers who had no formal training (myself
included)
and which wasn't designed for growth, stability, testability,
extensibility,
or any of the other core attributes that make for high quality software.
Maintaining that software has been the bane of my existence since 1991.

At any rate, a lot of VB followers joined the VB herd because it was the
popular thing to do. The "herd mentality" also is responsible for letting
ridiculous hold-overs from VB6 creep into .NET. (1-based collections?
ReDim
takes the upper index as its argument?! Come on!!!)

Now, having said all that, it's worth pointing out that I am a huge fan
of
VB.NET, and still use it every day. I am moving towards C# because I
think it
will make me a better programmer by enforcing better coding standards.
Does
that make VB.NET a crap tool? Of course not. Does moving to C# make me
less
than a man? Allow me to clear that up for you.

Not only no, but HELL no.

[JJJingleHeimerSchmitt]

I am a big fan of people that shout about what is wrong in forums. Why they
hate this or that...why they are so cool... and how we should not even be in
the same forum with them. By that I mean, these are the people that make my
stop reading an interesting post b/c they are so busy letting everyone know
why they are sooo cool.

Now...to why I started reading this post in the first place. I started
developing in college with VB6, some standard sql, and did web design to pay
the bills (buy beer).

I used vb.net b/c that is what our company used when I started developing
here. I made the push for us to have the choice. The developers that
orignally worked in vb6 still like vb.net better, but they are opening upto
C#.

I am one of the few developers that started in VB6 and migrated to C# on my
own accord. I am not that great at either one...but feel I am making a
quicker track up the learning curve in C# than I did in VB. In a simple
simile, vb is like English and C# is like math. This is this. Do this. In VB,
I feel like I am writing a story... Let me tell you about my variable.

I do not agree with those that persist that VB is easier to read. VB is
easier for you to read for the same reason English is easier than Swahili
(sp?) for me to read. I don't sprechete the linguite.

I also use ReSharper and that enables me to run circles around what I could
do in VB productivity wise. That might add to my bias...but it comes down to
adapt or become extinct. Our developers have the option...maybe that is what
the whiners are crying about... your big bad boss won't let you choose.

Instead of going through forums blasting people for liking one or the other,
why don't you take the time to learn the other and see what it all about? I
did. That's

Paper or Plastic? They both hold groceries. They both have strengths. But if
someone held a gun to my head and told me to choose... I would think they
were silly and tell them to pi$$ off.

[Mike Hofer]

ri***@onetel.co m wrote:

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.
There have been VB developers since 1991. C# didn't exist until .NET
came out (2002?). So, yeah. There are a LOT more VB programmers.

The question is, "How many of them are worth their salt?"
As matter of interest, I heard that the .net framework library was
orginally written in C# (!).
The Base Class Libraries are, indeed, written in C#.
It all down to personal perference really...becaus e of the JIT, the
result outcome is the same.

Exactly. That's the point of having .NET support multiple languages: it
allows the developer to leverage his existing skillsets so that he can
be as productive as possible as fast as possible.

As for the compiler, you're MOSTLY right. If you write a "Hello, World"
program in C# and VB.NET, then compile them, the IL does differ a
little bit, but not enough to be worried about. You can see the
differences by viewing the code in ILDASM.

I imagine that in very large applications, it might be noticible. But
they'd have to be really big. And I'd further hazard a guess that in
the end, it all averages out.

Which brings us back to your point. Pick the language you like, and run
with it. :)

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Mike Hofer <kc********@gma il.com> wrote:

ri***@onetel.co m wrote:

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.

There have been VB developers since 1991. C# didn't exist until .NET
came out (2002?). So, yeah. There are a LOT more VB programmers.

That's not what was stated. What was stated was that there were more
*VB.NET* programmers than C# programmers. There may be more VB
programmers, but not all of them have moved to VB.NET, as I understand
it. Many have stayed on VB6, many have moved to VB.NET, and many have
move to C#. I don't know what the proportions involved are - do you?

<snip>

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Mike Hofer]

Jon wrote:

Mike Hofer <kc********@gma il.com> wrote:

ri***@onetel.co m wrote:

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.

There have been VB developers since 1991. C# didn't exist until .NET
came out (2002?). So, yeah. There are a LOT more VB programmers.

That's not what was stated. What was stated was that there were more
*VB.NET* programmers than C# programmers. There may be more VB
programmers, but not all of them have moved to VB.NET, as I understand
it. Many have stayed on VB6, many have moved to VB.NET, and many have
move to C#. I don't know what the proportions involved are - do you?

You're right. I missed that. Thanks for the correction.

I don't think *anyone* likely has the definitive number of VB.NET vs.
C# programmers. It would be an interesting percentage, whatever it
was. Also, how many companies have flat out refused to move forward?
How many initially refused, but have given in? How many were early
adopters? How many adopted but went back?

I'd be interested in knowing all of that. I wonder where I'd have to go
to find it.