C# developers going back to vb.net

[Kevin]

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[Jorge]

I'm sorry Joe, but you are wrong. How can you stand there and abuse the VB
developers. You might be able to code in C#, but you know what? I sure as
hell will not want you in my development team. Just because someone is not as
competence as you are does not give you the right to insult them. Plus, I
don’t think everyone here will appreciate, even if you are right or not, the
insult. This is a discussion not a debate. You like C#, others like VB.net,
both can be productive, and both of them have a market.
Jorge

[joe mamma]

First of all I am making two points. VBSUX sucked and the VB.NOT language is
inferior.

Re. VBSUX - In the real world, everything that is supposedly so great about
it becomes a glaring defect. Lack of OO makes it virtually impossible to
implement some of the most basic design patterns without creating an
unwieldly chunk of code.
Simply put, its 'simple' language often leads to bad design. The VBSUX way
of doing things is the wrong way of doing things.
Yes it reads like english. . . a run-on sentence!

I have been spending the last 2 years maintaining a 100+ form VBSUX
application and it is a complete nightmare.

My first instinct is to blame the original developers, but that wouldn't be
fair. Yes, they weren't that skilled but they did the best they could with
what they had ->

no visual databinding without incorporating the adodc (and even that is a
bassackwards paradigm) and the databinding library.
Adding a library to the application requires a new installation which is
unacceptable in most of our deployments. "DLL Hell??? What the fuck is
that???" asked the delphi developer."
You cant do stream IO /threads/com+ events/service applications/native dll's.
No delegation therefore you can't dynamically wire/unwire event handlers.
No structured exception handling. No, On Error Resume is not structured. it
is the cause of most of the crappy code I see!
And worst of all, a shoddy help file.
Oh, did I mention, you have to run an add-in to get mouse wheel response in
the code editor???

I could go on and on.

have you got a commercial VBSUX application on the market??? give me 5
minutes, I will break it.

I could go on and on about VBSUX. it is a piece of crap and is not viable
for commercial applications.

VBSUX -- created by bad developers for bad developers.
Shoot the team so the don't do any more damage!!!

That being said. . . let me go through the keyword list for VB.NOT. No
further discourse will be needed to definitively prove the inferiority of the
language. . .

AddHandler. . .AddressOf: what the fuck is that???? why doesnt VB.NOT use
an assignment operator?????
As: In every other OOP language As is the cast operator but this fucked up
language hi-jacks it for ass-backwards variable declaration syntax.
DirectCast: Oh yeah we need this because this fucked up langauge already
hi-jacked 'As'
Function: what the fuck do we need this word for??? there is no such thing
as a function only methods. just some don't return values.
Implements [interface.metho d]: why in the world should this statement be
necessary when a simple override key word without the interface spec should
be adequate in most scenarios.
Is: this fucked up language hi-jacks the type comparer for reference
comparison.
MustInherit/MustOverride: what the fucK???? why two different words??? and
why isnt the word 'abstract'?????
Nothing: huh??? whats wrong with null???
NotInheritable/NotOverridable: again - what the fuck??? two different words
when one would suffice - 'sealed'!!!
Overridable: huh??? the word is 'virtual'
ReadOnly: what??? the complier isnt snmart enough to figure out that if it
doesnt have a setter it is read only????
RemoveHandler: see addhandler above.
Shared: huh? the rest of the world uses 'static'
Sub: again there is no such thing as functions and subs, only methods
WriteOnly: see ReadOnly above.

Finally, the a new line is part of the lexicon!!! what the fuck is that???

In summary, the VB language makes programming harder than it has to be.

[joe mamma]

Oh yeah. . .

If VBSUX was so great, why did Microsoft pay the guy who created delphi to
come on board and create C#???

Why? Because delphi blows VBSUX away!

Shoot the VBSUX team. They are the cause of most of the worlds problems!!!

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

joe mamma <jo******@discu ssions.microsof t.com> wrote:

Oh yeah. . .

If VBSUX was so great, why did Microsoft pay the guy who created delphi to
come on board and create C#???

Why? Because delphi blows VBSUX away!

Shoot the VBSUX team. They are the cause of most of the worlds problems!!!

Joe, please stop this. There really is *no* need to abuse either VB
programmers or the VB development team. I don't know what your purpose
in making these statements is, but I can see no positive effect they
could possibly have.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[thiru]

In my case its reverse. Is there any problem for c# developers in future
because previously I developed in vb and now in c#.
"Kevin" wrote:

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[Kevin Spencer]

> My response, 'If you dont know, you wouldn't understand. . . Can I talk to

your clients??? And while I steal your business, take a look at delphi.'
With that "logic," and the emotional religious zeal you possess, you aren't
likely to be stealing anyone's business any time soon.
Microsoft, take your VB development team out back and shoot them. . . and
then shoot their mothers for bearing them! Protect the gene pool and shoot
their sisters, too!!!
Considering that Microsoft is the most powerful software company in the
world, it might be logical to assume that they know a bit more than you do.
When one does not understand something, presuming that it is a stupid idea
is a stupid mistake.

I have often mulled over the VB issue, and am not at all convinced that
Microsoft has made mistakes in that area. The biggest problem it has caused
is the proliferation of "less-than-professional" software developers in the
world, due to its ease of use. However, as I have thought the issue over,
there are levels of development in the software development world. Some
people need to write operating systems, and need to know everything down to
the machine level, and these people are rare. They make developers like me,
and developers like you, look like morons by comparison. At the other end,
you have users, who need to tweak their software to perform specific tasks,
and who may be able to "program" at the Macro level. Between these 2
extremes, you have a vast gradient of development needs and skill levels.
And there is a fairly vast gadient of pay grades as well to go along with
it.

Simple because someone knows less than you do about one thing or another
doesn't make you "superior" to someone else, any more than being taller than
another person makes you "superior" to another person. And why should an
employer who needs, for example, a relatively simple web interface to
display reports, pay 100K+ to an OS-level developer to perform the task?

The problem that was caused by VB is not really a problem at all. If there
is confusion in the market place, the confusion is not caused by VB; it is
caused by the ignorance of the employers. It distressed me when VB
developers began to move to C#, thus, in a sense, "muddying the waters," and
for a time, there was some inconsistency in pay levels for developers having
different skill levels, due to a mistaken impression on the part of
employers that the programming language used was an indicator of skill
level. But again, that was the mistake of the employers.

I am now in a position where I participlate in the evaluation and hiring of
developers from time to time. I know what questions to ask, and what to look
for. What programming language is used is not a criteria where I am
concerned. There are hacks that use every programming language in existence.
But I do look at their code. Regardless of the language used, good code is
good code. Good logic is good logic. And I find, for example, a good number
of holes in yours. I know I wouldn't hire you. I would tell you to come back
after a few more years.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"joe mamma" <jo******@discu ssions.microsof t.com> wrote in message
news:34******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com... "alYsa" wrote:

I think people that were developing with VB should not be developers at
all.
:)
There is some truth in that - cause they are rooted so much in bad
methodologies and crap code - that they are very useless in understanding
proper OO programming. So if they use vb.net - then nothing changes -
they do
the same crap procedural code - just they think that they are programming
OO
cause vb.net supposed to be OO language.
So in my opinion every VB developer should go to C# - so they would
forget
everything they knew about VB - it does not work that way as it used to.

Alysa, you are so correct! I think I am in love!!!

VBSUX was the worst peiece of crap over unleashed. The syntax led to
worthless code. the VB.Not syntax perpetuates the sin!

look at the syntax for declaring variables to see the problem. . .

I think 'Give me an interger called foo set to bar:

C#:
int foo = bar

I dont think "dimension some memory called foo that will hold an integer
and
store bar in it":

VB.Not:
dim foo as integer = bar

Now look at the IDE's -

C#: I can drop a control on a form in c# and go directly to the property
window| events tab and double click and create an event.

VB.NOT: drop a control, switch to code, select the control from the combo
at
the right top. . . soll through the events for the control in the combo on
the right. what a pain in the frickin a$$

Can we talk about VBSUX developers (and I use the word loosly) for a
second?
9 out of 10 of them were totally confused by databinding and are going to
hate .net. Most of these morons were opening recordsets and itereating
though
the recordsets and loading the values directly into their controls. What
idiots!!!!

Also, there were things you simply couldn't do in VBSUX. I won't
elaborate,
just trust me. . . you couldn't do it. Ok you forced me - Form
inheritance,
multithreading sophisticated COM+ development. 'But how often do we really
need that?' you might counter. . .

My response, 'If you dont know, you wouldn't understand. . . Can I talk to
your clients??? And while I steal your business, take a look at delphi.'

hmmm. . . didn't Microsoft pay the guy who developed the far superior
delphi
a shitload of money to leave borland and come on board to develop .net???

Microsoft, take your VB development team out back and shoot them. . . and
then shoot their mothers for bearing them! Protect the gene pool and shoot
their sisters, too!!!

[Kevin]

Joe,

I have read your post and have realised that under the covers you are
an exceptional developer. Maybe you should try and get yourself a .Net
developer position instead of maintaining VB6 code. I'm actually
getting sick and tired of idiots like yourself who have no clue about
..Net and then come here and disrespect developers and the languages
they work in. Go away, buy a couple of .Net books, go on a couple of
..Net courses, and when you have finally gained a bit of experience on
the subject you are welcome to come back here and debate issues in a
constructive manner.

Kevin

[Benny Raymond]

I think it's really just a matter of opinion. I really like c# - I'm
not forced to code in it. My brother in law however really likes vb.net
and he's not forced to code in that.

I'm an ex vb developer... I can't say that I'll never go back, however
right now C# is great for me, it just feels better.

Kevin wrote:

I think most of you guys have missed the topic totally, whenever this
question is asked it turns into a language comparison.
It has been proven that every great man in history has stood up in the
middle of the crowd so to speak and has gone against the grain and has
followed his heart.

The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'
How many of you out there are man enough to stand up and forget about
the money, forget about the 'I work in C# because I'm regarded as a
real developer' or 'I work in C# because I'm embarrased to say I work
in vb' and work in the language that you love to work in.

Mythran, Roger, Nikki, William have posted good comments, something
along the line as 'I work in C# because I like the C style syntax
because I worked in C/C++ before'.

Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.

Reginald - If you want to be a more rad type of guy then work in vb.
Are you indicating that c# isn't a rad tool. I think c# is just as rad
as vb.net.

Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.

For myself I've worked in C# for 4 years now. I'm an ex vb developer.
Since I've started this project on VB.Net I actually wake up earlier in
the morning to get to work earlier as to write the next piece of code.
I started developing not because of the money nor the fact that I
thought I would become the best developer in the world but because I
liked software development and the language I wrote it in. I love to
change peoples lives.

I'm afraid to say that most ex vb developers use C# because they are
C++ wannabies not because they can change the world.

And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.

We all know that the languages are different and you can do this in one
and that in the other. If I'm missing something I need in vb I'll pop
over to c# and write it, or visa versa.

How many men are out there. (Includes the girls as well, just a figure
of speech)????
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.

[Kevin]

Benny,

Brilliant, I can't believe it. You are one of the few people who have
honestly answered the original post. As you can see the only way some
people answer this question is by comparing the 2 main languages on the
..Net framework. This was not my intention, my intention was to see how
many developers out there are forced to program in a language because
of Money, or because they will be dubbed true developers by a community
or because their companies have standarized on a language because of
marketing hype for example. You and your brother in law are truly
lucky, in a way, because you guys are working in a language that you
both enjoy!! Well Done.

Kevin

[AllAloneWithBooks]

Clipper, VB3, VB4,VB5,VB6, C# at first launch. Personnal choice to grow up.
Impossible to go back.
No technical reason to do it.
I loose liberty, control and confidence in VB code after work with C#
After this years in C#, VB code is ugly.
Good luck on your downgrade.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in.