People in these groups, and on web-pages, not infrequently suggest that
it is worthwhile cutting down on white-space and comments in HTML and
CSS in order to reduce loading times. I and others have more than once
doubted this, given the data-compression in the HTTP protocol. Having
seen it suggested again a couple of times in the last few days, I
decided it was time for a test on the effect of white-space.
I took one of my pages: http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html
which is 20 Kb.
I then bloated it with whitespace to 162 Kb (nothing special about that
number - it's just what it happened to end up as): http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/misc/checklist.html
I tested them over my 46 Kbps modem connection (yes: 46, not 56; don't
ask - I don't know either) using Opera 7.
The first page loads in 3 seconds, the second in 8 seconds - both
figures seem to be repeatable. This suggests that if you took a file
with a fairly generous 5Kb of white-space, and stripped out all of it,
loading would be speeded up by a princely one-sixth of a second. (For
comparison, the largest HTML file on my site, of 79Kb, turned out to
have just under 3Kb of compressible white-space.)
Somehow it just doesn't seem worth it ...
--
Stephen Poley http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
Jul 20 '05
45  3500 
Harrie wrote: Jukka K. Korpela said the following on 20/08/2004 01:26: Followups trimmed. Indentation of HTML source is surely not a CSS
business.
How about indenting CSS files? If you took the time to think about it,
you would see that his point is as valid for HTML as CSS (although the
later one wasn't mentioned).
Right! And how about indenting PHP, ASP, JS, CFM, ... C, C++, C#,
Pascal, VisualBasic, etc ad infinitum? I think the list of crossposts
should be extended to cover all those other code newsgroups as well!
Matthias
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:55:33 +0100, Spartanicus <me@privacy.net > wrote: Stephen Poley <sb************ ******@xs4all.n l> wrote:
I tested them over my 46 Kbps modem connection (yes: 46, not 56; don't
ask - I don't know either)
56K is the theoretical maximum, in reality this is never achieved, sub
50K is pretty normal.
OK. In a previous configuration I always got 56 (to the nearest K), so I
assumed that was normal.
--
Stephen Poley http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:34:47 +0100, Spartanicus <me@privacy.net > wrote: Stephen Poley <sb************ ******@xs4all.n l> wrote:
I should perhaps have spelt things out a little more explicitly. The
point is that with realistic examples the difference in speed is too
small for me to measure (the same going for your example), so I made an
unrealistic example to see what happened.
My example shows that there is no size issue, so you've created a
problem in order to demonstrate that if you create this problem it's not
as much of a problem as you may have thought before you created the
problem.
Huh?
<grin> Sort of. Given that the problem was too small to measure, I
attempted to ludicrously inflate the problem so as to be able to measure
it and demonstrate exactly how small it was. Or something.
I suspect we're violently agreeing with each other.
But I'm still intrigued by Neal's result, where he seems to get a little
compression, but not much.
--
Stephen Poley http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
"Matthias Gutfeldt" <sa************ @gmx.net> wrote in message
news:2o******** ****@uni-berlin.de...
Right! And how about indenting PHP, ASP, JS, CFM, ... C, C++, C#,
Pascal, VisualBasic, etc ad infinitum? I think the list of crossposts
should be extended to cover all those other code newsgroups as well!
Matthias,
It's quite honourable to run to the defense of one of your pals, but this
attempt was quite lame, and entirely facetious.
The arguments about saving space are as applicable to CSS as they are to
HTML. Arguably you could say the same about ASP, PHP etc, except that what
the server transfers to the client (post-processing) is in fact HTML so we
are back to square one...
I dont think that C, C++, C# Pascal & VB have an relevance here, but even if
they did, it would break another rule of netiquette to include them all
in... Thou shalt no cross-post to more than 3 or 4 NGs! So the OP made an
entirely sensible choice.
The bottom line is that Jukka went off half-cocked. His stance on the
netiquette was arguable, he is technically wrong about the tab v. space
argument, and his silence is deafening.
Apart from this detour, this has been an interesting thread. Thanks Stephen.
Chris
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:43:41 +0200, Matthias Gutfeldt
<sa************ @gmx.net> wrote: Harrie wrote: Jukka K. Korpela said the following on 20/08/2004 01:26: Followups trimmed. Indentation of HTML source is surely not a CSS
business.
How about indenting CSS files? If you took the time to think about it,
you would see that his point is as valid for HTML as CSS (although the
later one wasn't mentioned).
Right! And how about indenting PHP, ASP, JS, CFM, ... C, C++, C#,
Pascal, VisualBasic, etc ad infinitum? I think the list of crossposts
should be extended to cover all those other code newsgroups as well!
If it had been, it would not have been essentially wrong. At this point,
however, adding them in would be senseless.
CJM wrote: "Matthias Gutfeldt" <sa************ @gmx.net> wrote in message
news:2o******** ****@uni-berlin.de...
Right! And how about indenting PHP, ASP, JS, CFM, ... C, C++, C#,
Pascal, VisualBasic, etc ad infinitum? I think the list of crossposts
should be extended to cover all those other code newsgroups as well!
Matthias,
It's quite honourable to run to the defense of one of your pals, but this
attempt was quite lame, and entirely facetious.
CJM, pal, why are you taking all this so dead serious? It's Friday
afternoon. Relax!
Matthias
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:55:42 +0200, Stephen Poley
<sb************ ******@xs4all.n l> wrote: But I'm still intrigued by Neal's result, where he seems to get a little
compression, but not much.
As am I. Checked modem properties, compression is on. Perhaps it's related
to my ISP, interference in the phone line, etc. It could be a lot of
things...
Just re-checked. The compact test was about 5 seconds, the spaced-out one
9 or 10. So this time there seemed to be compression. So I'll write off
the last results to some issue in the pipeline.
"Matthias Gutfeldt" <sa************ @gmx.net> wrote in message
news:2o******** ****@uni-berlin.de...
CJM, pal, why are you taking all this so dead serious? It's Friday
afternoon. Relax!
Matthias
Probably *because* it's Friday afternoon.... I want to go home.
Apologies if I misread the tone, but this seemed like a good thread going
sour....
Chris
"Stephen Poley" <sb************ ******@xs4all.n l> wrote in message
news:ij******** *************** *********@4ax.c om...
OK. In a previous configuration I always got 56 (to the nearest K), so I
assumed that was normal.
<choke>I've never had > 45, and usually nearer 40!</choke>
Still, BT promised to give us broadband by end-2005.... T-480 days and
counting...
Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote: On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
In HTML, a tab is equivalent to a space, except in special
occasions. But almost any use of tabs in HTML is a symptom of some
misunderstandin g.
Come again? I always use tabs to make my source more readable and
I cannot see what should be wrong with it.
People often try to use tabs to tabulate data in HTML documents. Outside
<pre> (and perhaps <textarea>) elements it is doomed to fail. Inside
<pre>, it might work on sunny afternoons, but all HTML specifications
have told authors they should not really rely on that.
As regards to formatting HTML source, tabs may take you to some tab
stops, or they may not, depending on the program you're using. I don't
see why you would use tabs, when spaces work so much more reliably - who
knows what programs you might use for editing HTML in the future?
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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