People in these groups, and on web-pages, not infrequently suggest that
it is worthwhile cutting down on white-space and comments in HTML and
CSS in order to reduce loading times. I and others have more than once
doubted this, given the data-compression in the HTTP protocol. Having
seen it suggested again a couple of times in the last few days, I
decided it was time for a test on the effect of white-space.
I took one of my pages: http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html
which is 20 Kb.
I then bloated it with whitespace to 162 Kb (nothing special about that
number - it's just what it happened to end up as): http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/misc/checklist.html
I tested them over my 46 Kbps modem connection (yes: 46, not 56; don't
ask - I don't know either) using Opera 7.
The first page loads in 3 seconds, the second in 8 seconds - both
figures seem to be repeatable. This suggests that if you took a file
with a fairly generous 5Kb of white-space, and stripped out all of it,
loading would be speeded up by a princely one-sixth of a second. (For
comparison, the largest HTML file on my site, of 79Kb, turned out to
have just under 3Kb of compressible white-space.)
Somehow it just doesn't seem worth it ...
--
Stephen Poley http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
Jul 20 '05
45  3498 
In article <op************ **@news.individ ual.net>,
Neal <ne*****@yahoo. com> writes: People in these groups, and on web-pages, not infrequently suggest that
it is worthwhile cutting down on white-space and comments in HTML and
CSS in order to reduce loading times. I and others have more than once
doubted this, given the data-compression in the HTTP protocol. Having
Compression is optional in HTTP, and only works if you've enabled it
on the server (eg with mod_deflate).
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html
which is 20 Kb.
HTTP compression is not enabled on that URL.
I then bloated it with whitespace to 162 Kb (nothing special about that
number - it's just what it happened to end up as):
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/misc/checklist.html
Nor there.
I tested them over my 46 Kbps modem connection (yes: 46, not 56; don't
ask - I don't know either) using Opera 7.
I expect you have PPP compression enabled in your modem.
The first page loads in 3 seconds, the second in 8 seconds - both
figures seem to be repeatable.
That's a significant difference. If you had HTTP compression enabled there
should be negligible difference (because that extra 162K would be wiped out).
For me, original=3secs, bloated=21 secs.
Either you have no PPP compression (very bad), or you have a bottleneck
elsewhere in your connection.
About 8Kb per sec, or close to the same for the original file. This would
seem to indicate there is value in reducing white space.
Indeed, in some circumstances there is. But there is much more value
in mod_deflate. And if you use that, the value in reducing whitespace
vanishes. That applies to any repetitive patterns - such as HTML tags -
but not to comments (mentioned in passing in the OP).
--
Nick Kew
Nick's manifesto: http://www.htmlhelp.com/~nick/
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Stephen Poley wrote: On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:41:12 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote: http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/misc/checklist.html
It may be of interest that when gzipped, your file sizes came out as
7711 and 8805 respectively.
I have just been playing with various arcane
aspects of Zip compression over on c.l.j.p., so
I was particularly interested to see if you had ..
a) 'blobbed' the white-space in a large chunk, as opposed to
b) giving an extra space or two between each word,
...for example.
The reason is that most compression algorithms
will compress the 'large space' better than many
small spaces.
And.. yes, I noticed you made that mistake,
large chunks of whitespace that are easily
compressible, with a fairly clear pattern.
I would be convinced only if you started from
the outset with a more realistic (chaotic)
example.
--
Andrew Thompson http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology
I've switched to indenting my HTML out with tabs instead of spaces. It took
some getting used to as I didn't like how far they appeared to be indented
(I'm still a notepad junkie) but I got used to it and file sizes are much
smaller now (and my thumbs aren't as sore any more as I don't have to keep
hitting the space bar that much).
"Frostillic us" <fr****@nilspam os.iinet.net.au > wrote: I've switched to indenting my HTML out with tabs instead of spaces.
You are trolling, are you not? As usual, crossposting to two groups
without setting followups is a probable sign of spamming, trolling, or
cluelessness, and a forged From field supports this impression.
So does lack of any reference to preceding discussion (such as quotation
or summary of the message being commented on).
In HTML, a tab is equivalent to a space, except in special occasions. But
almost any use of tabs in HTML is a symptom of some misunderstandin g.
Followups trimmed. Indentation of HTML source is surely not a CSS
business.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:26:02 +0000 (UTC), Jukka K. Korpela
<jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote: "Frostillic us" <fr****@nilspam os.iinet.net.au > wrote:
I've switched to indenting my HTML out with tabs instead of spaces.
You are trolling, are you not? As usual, crossposting to two groups
without setting followups is a probable sign of spamming, trolling, or
cluelessness, and a forged From field supports this impression.
Odd you waited to tear him a new asshole when nine others, including me,
have participated in this crossposted thread prior. Unless I'm missing a
finer point, I hardly think it's fair. If I am missing a finer point,
apologies.
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:26:02 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote: "Frostillicu s" <fr****@nilspam os.iinet.net.au > wrote:
I've switched to indenting my HTML out with tabs instead of spaces.
You are trolling, are you not? As usual, crossposting to two groups
without setting followups is a probable sign of spamming, trolling, or
cluelessness , and a forged From field supports this impression.
So does lack of any reference to preceding discussion (such as quotation
or summary of the message being commented on).
In HTML, a tab is equivalent to a space, except in special occasions. But
almost any use of tabs in HTML is a symptom of some misunderstandin g.
Followups trimmed. Indentation of HTML source is surely not a CSS
business.
Having a bad night, Jukka? The subject matter of the thread not only can
be, but has been, raised in respect of both HTML and CSS and it appears
to be relevant to both groups.
Further, given that tab is explicitly defined as a whitespace character
in HTML, your comment on that deserves a little further explanation.
(I'll grant you the comment on the lack of any quoted material.)
--
Stephen Poley http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
Stephen Poley <sb************ ******@xs4all.n l> wrote: I should perhaps have spelt things out a little more explicitly. The
point is that with realistic examples the difference in speed is too
small for me to measure (the same going for your example), so I made an
unrealistic example to see what happened.
My example shows that there is no size issue, so you've created a
problem in order to demonstrate that if you create this problem it's not
as much of a problem as you may have thought before you created the
problem.
Huh?
--
Spartanicus
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: In HTML, a tab is equivalent to a space, except in special occasions. But
almost any use of tabs in HTML is a symptom of some misunderstandin g.
Come again? I always use tabs to make my source more readable and
I cannot see what should be wrong with it.
--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?
Jukka K. Korpela said the following on 20/08/2004 01:26: "Frostillic us" <fr****@nilspam os.iinet.net.au > wrote:
I've switched to indenting my HTML out with tabs instead of spaces.
You are trolling, are you not?
I don't think Frostillicus was, but are you?
As usual, crossposting to two groups
without setting followups is a probable sign of spamming, trolling, or
cluelessness,
Then why do you blame him for that? Stephen Poley started the thread and
he didn't set a followup, nor did the 12 others who replied (by that
time) to it. Not that I see a reason for setting it, since it's relevant
to both groups.
and a forged From field supports this impression.
Sure .. it's one big conspiracy.
So does lack of any reference to preceding discussion (such as quotation
or summary of the message being commented on).
I think it's more productive to explain what people did wrong (according
to your beliefs or to nettiquette) than just picking on them. If you
explain it people might understand why some things are better or
preffered. I had problems with anyone saying that top posting was wrong
untill somebody took the time to explain it to me. Result: I don't top
post anymore.
In HTML, a tab is equivalent to a space, except in special occasions. But
almost any use of tabs in HTML is a symptom of some misunderstandin g.
You didn't get the point. It wasn't about how a tab or a space is
*rendered*, it's about (source)file *size* (as was mentioned, but you
didn't quote *that* part). One tab is one character, serveral spaces are
several characters. It's plain simple.
Followups trimmed. Indentation of HTML source is surely not a CSS
business.
How about indenting CSS files? If you took the time to think about it,
you would see that his point is as valid for HTML as CSS (although the
later one wasn't mentioned).
--
Regards
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