I am a bit curious about this.
The graphic design people I work with say it is their preferred font for
web pages. The reason being that it is "kinder" to the eye both in terms
of shape and size.
The HTML "hardcore elititst" profess that it is a useless font because
it is too big compared to other fonts.
Personally I do not care one way or the other, but I generally trust
graphic designers more than programmers and rules lawyers when it comes
to pure design.
It seems to me that the only argument against using Verdana is that a
large number of browsers do not support it and therefore it causes their
pages to render with a very small font.
Can anyone honestly say they do not have the Verdana font installed?
Jul 21 '05
300  18478 
"Martin!" <ma**********@h ome.nl.knip.kni p.knip> wrote: Steve Pugh wrote: "Martin!" <ma**********@h ome.nl.knip.kni p.knip> wrote:
That's why using pt or px is a bad idea.
idealistic and thus unrealistic
I've used % for font sizing on dozens of commercial and public sector
web sites including some used by millions of visitors. Please tell me
how it is unrealistic?
in the sense that not everybody is willing to spend time and money to
tweak their code into a completely sizeable site.
What tweaking is needed?
You start with a blank screen and type
font-size: 100%; instead of font-size: 16px;
Even if retrofitting accessibility to a badly put together site
(generally a bad idea - better to start again with a new design which
has accessibility built in) changing the font sizes to something more
accessible, even allowing for the issues of inheritence, only takes
half an hour or so.
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>
in comp.infosystem s. www.authoring.stylesheets, Els wrote: Lauri Raittila wrote:
in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, =?ISO-8859-
1?Q?St=E5le_S=E 6b=F8e?= wrote: Lauri Raittila wrote:
in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, Els wrote:
>>>>>Then you haven't looked at my site. 100% Verdana ;-)
>>http://80.202.168.171/sandbox/ Els http://locusmeus.com/
Both sites immidiately make me use alt + s, s to get Arial instead
Verdana...
Which is your prerogative. And does that make the sites look ok to you?
No, since my normal text size is best for TNR. I just didn't have
shortcut key for forcing TNR. It makes them look better...
If you had not selected any font, I would get optimal font on your site,
without needing to force anything. The problem with forcing your
preferences is that it is next to impossible force body type, and leave
everything else alone. In other words, you can't force your preferences
without causeing harm on properly done sites.
Just to make sure I understand you correctly, Lauri: "properly done
sites" = "no font set at all" ?
Yes. For body text, that is. For other text, it doesn't really matter
what you use. (with body text I don't mean all text in body element, but
all text that makes core of content.)
About Verdana, well, I would not use it for anything. But for heading it
is OK for accessibility and usability viewpoints.
If so, I disagree. I bet the most proper way to do a site for you is
to set no colour either,
No. I would only suggest that do not set body text background to white
(if you specify it, use suitable off-white light colour), and text color
should be very near to black. I have yet to see easily readable site with
inverse colors, but it might be possible as well, but it is more likely
conflict with userstylesheet.
To other elements in page, use whatever colors you like.
Links should blue if possible, while visited should be that purple. But
link colors are not that important
nor add any images that don't really mean anything,
Yes, but I would only count fully transparent images in that category.
There is n+1 pages still out there using good old 1px transparent
images...
nor make the menu stick to the left or right,
Yes, it is better, if you can make it move around by size of window, or
not include it at all. But it is not usually too bad thing, *if* it does
not confuse user. The content of menu is more important than where it is
located in page.
and don't make the footer's font size smaller than the body text.
Rather, don't put any irrelevant information to footer (like legal
statements, copyright, etc. first you might need if you are based in US
or other country with idiotic justice system...)
I would assume that sooner or later soe nice US citizen makes end of
smaller size footer tradition by going to court and saying he was not
able to see it...
How am I doing in my assumption?
Near, but you would end up with boring site...
--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Utrecht, NL.
Lauri Raittila wrote: In other words, you can't force your preferences
without causeing harm on properly done sites.
[snip assumption of Lauri's preferences for site styles]
How am I doing in my assumption?
Near, but you would end up with boring site...
LOL
At least one thing we agree on <g>
--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Lauri Raittila wrote: in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, =?ISO-8859-
1?Q?St=E5le_S=E 6b=F8e?= wrote:
Stan Brown wrote:
"Ståle Sæbøe" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets:
I am a bit curious about this.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html
I read that before I started this thread. That guy only has one
argument. It is incredible how he manages to fill 2 pages to explain it.
Because it is obviously hard to understand
I repeated it in my original post.
Yes, so you misunderstood it.
I don't think so. I acknowledge the problems with using a large font and
then reducing it in size, but that is slightly apart from the issue. To
the original question "Why not?" you say you think it is ugly. Well ...
what can I say? You win :)
Should a designer set a font at all? Well in some cases she has no
choice in the matter. Many of the debatants here seem to argue from the
standpoint that all pages must contain a lot of readable text, but a lot
of home pages is just a showroom/window to the world. They want their
proprietary colors, logos and font faces to blend into the design as
part of their branding strategy.
So: If the brunt of the message of the page is within long articles or
essays (etc). accessability becomes aplha omega and allowing the user
maximum freedom of choice is probably the best way to go. In addition,
if you must maintain accessability to users with various types and
degrees of disability the designer is left with precious little choice
with regards to "railroadin g" browsers which could lead to a "boring"
design.
In any case, I still do not see anything wrong with the Verdana font. I
observe that many debatants claim that designers "tend" to use it in a
way that makes pages undreadable unless you view them with default
settings, but that is a discussion about implementation pitfalls (which
I will be more careful to observe in the future).
I will also pay closer attention to the target group. Apparantly,
Verdana is installed on all windows systems, but some other OS must do
it manually (mostly Linux variants?) It seems this is true for a lot of
fonts though, so the second you set the font-family property, you have
already lost 1% of your potential customers/visitors.
in comp.infosystem s. www.authoring.stylesheets, =?ISO-8859-
1?Q?St=E5le_S=E 6b=F8e?= wrote: Lauri Raittila wrote: in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, =?ISO-8859-
1?Q?St=E5le_S=E 6b=F8e?= wrote:
Stan Brown wrote:
"Ståle Sæbøe" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets:
>I am a bit curious about this.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html
I read that before I started this thread. That guy only has one
argument. It is incredible how he manages to fill 2 pages to explain it.
Because it is obviously hard to understand
I repeated it in my original post.
Yes, so you misunderstood it.
I don't think so. I acknowledge the problems with using a large font and
then reducing it in size, but that is slightly apart from the issue.
Well, if your choise causes problems for large part of users, I think it
is quite essential. And I think you missed the point that Verdana size
issue only applies to normal text
To the original question "Why not?" you say you think it is ugly. Well ...
what can I say? You win :)
That is other argument. Which is good for why not use it on headings
either...
Should a designer set a font at all? Well in some cases she has no
choice in the matter.
I wouldn't be so sure. Body font is hardly ever desided on basis of
graphic design, if you have more than few lines of text, not even on
adverticements.
Many of the debatants here seem to argue from the
standpoint that all pages must contain a lot of readable text, but a lot
of home pages is just a showroom/window to the world. They want their
proprietary colors, logos and font faces to blend into the design as
part of their branding strategy.
Those are irrelevant to the issue.
So: If the brunt of the message of the page is within long articles or
essays (etc). accessability becomes aplha omega and allowing the user
maximum freedom of choice is probably the best way to go. In addition,
if you must maintain accessability to users with various types and
degrees of disability the designer is left with precious little choice
with regards to "railroadin g" browsers which could lead to a "boring"
design.
There is about 5 fonts to choose from, if you want consistant style. Your
font will not be orginal anyway, no matter which font you use. If you
want to make difference, use 20-40 different fonts that have aspect
ration between TNR and Arial, and you might get some results that differ
from other pages. (sometimes - after those handful of well supported
fonts, there is almost none that are even 50% likely)
In any case, I still do not see anything wrong with the Verdana font. I
observe that many debatants claim that designers "tend" to use it in a
way that makes pages undreadable unless you view them with default
settings, but that is a discussion about implementation pitfalls (which
I will be more careful to observe in the future).
There is no way to use Verdana right for normal text in HTML. To get
arguments why it is not good for anything else either, google comp.fonts
I will also pay closer attention to the target group. Apparantly,
Verdana is installed on all windows systems, but some other OS must do
it manually (mostly Linux variants?) It seems this is true for a lot of
fonts though, so the second you set the font-family property, you have
already lost 1% of your potential customers/visitors.
That depends greatly on what you do with size. If user goes to site that
says 100% Verdana, he gets better font, if he doesn't have Verdana. But
if you say 80% Verdana, then user is very likely getting bad size. With
fonts that won't differ from normal subjective size, you get good results
even if the font is not available
--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Utrecht, NL.
"Martin!" wrote: Steve Pugh wrote:
That's why using pt or px is a bad idea.
idealistic and thus unrealistic
Unrealistic is expecting your visitors to be able to read text you size
in px. You have no idea how big a px is on my systems.
--
"In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you."
Matthew 7:12 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/
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Ståle Sæb*e wrote: The HTML "hardcore elititst" profess that it is a useless font because
it is too big compared to other fonts.
This is only a problem for browsers/users that do not have/use Verdana
Wrong. The problem is that font-family: verdana is almost universally
accompanied by one of the following font-size specifications: 76%,
small, 90%, 80%, x-small or their em equivalents, or worse, in some px
or pt size smaller than the standard browser default. When this happens,
which is nearly always, and when the user has specified Verdana as his
own default, the page text is guaranteed to be smaller than the user's
preferred size, and probably too small for reading comfort.
--
"In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you."
Matthew 7:12 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/
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Steve Pugh wrote: Of course you don't. That's not the problem. The problem is when you
specify Verdana and specify a smaller than default font size. Then you
get a problem when Verdana is removed.
Some common ones arranged by size:
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/f...mplesExtS.html
But most designers think that Verdana at 100% looks too big and so
insist on a smaller size. Heck, often designers insist that Arial or
TNR at 100% is too big...
I think "often" is a gross understatement: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/shame.html
--
"In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you."
Matthew 7:12 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/
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Spartanicus wrote: Your screen resolution causes you to see things differently than most
people, approx 90PPI is a more typical resolution. If you had a 90PPI
screen you'd have a problem with Verdana @ 100%.
How can such a statement be valid without knowing display size, screen
resolution, and visual acuity?
--
"In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you."
Matthew 7:12 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/
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