Crikey! A Verdana's got my baby!

[Karl Smith]

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different. Surely that's
the point. What would be the purpose of all these font files that
infest my computer if all the typefaces looked the same? I can't
understand the apparent level of fear and loathing, just because
something looks a bit different. "A fair go for Verdana," that's all
I'm saying.

If you really find Verdana that distracting, all you need do is remove
the font from your *personal computer* - a simple, painless operation
that will take only a few seconds. Repeatedly asserting to other
people that they should not use something just because the cult
members have chosen to dislike it makes no sense whatsoever.

Is there anyone out there who has actually removed Verdana from their
computer? Perhaps they could explain what the often alluded to, but
rarely explained, "problem" really is?

--
Karl Smith.

[Els]

Karl Smith wrote:

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different.
You didn't read all those threads closely enough.
It's not that it looks different. It's that it is bigger
than other fonts. Webdesigners think it looks nice at 85% of
the original size.
Problem arises when someone doesn't have Verdana, or uses
their own preferred font. 85% of most other fonts ends up
too small too read.
That's all. If I read all those threads properly that is. ;-)
Is there anyone out there who has actually removed Verdana from their
computer?
I haven't.
Perhaps they could explain what the often alluded to, but
rarely explained, "problem" really is?

As described above.
--
Els

Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

[brucie]

in post: <news:40******* *************** @dreader2.news. tiscali.nl>
Els <el*********@ti scali.nl> said:

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different.

You didn't read all those threads closely enough.
It's not that it looks different. It's that it is bigger
than other fonts. Webdesigners think it looks nice at 85% of
the original size.
Problem arises when someone doesn't have Verdana, or uses
their own preferred font. 85% of most other fonts ends up
too small too read.
That's all. If I read all those threads properly that is. ;-)

i do-not th-ink you have used e-no-ugh li-tt-le words and
hy-ph-en-a-tion so karl can un-der-st-and it
--
b r u c i e

[Nick Kew]

In article <3d************ ************@po sting.google.co m>,
go************@ kjsmith.com (Karl Smith) writes:

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different. Surely that's
Where have you been these last couple of years? If you look different,
you're a terrorist. I don't want these alien verdanas bombing me,
so we have to bomb them first.
If you really find Verdana that distracting, all you need do is remove
the font from your *personal computer* - a simple, painless operation

I've never had a verdana on my computer.

Let's deal with them now while there's still time. We need a final
solution to the Verdana problem!

--
Nick Kew

Nick's manifesto: http://www.htmlhelp.com/~nick/

[Els]

brucie wrote:

in post: <news:40******* *************** @dreader2.news. tiscali.nl>
Els <el*********@ti scali.nl> said:

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different.

[snip difficult words of previous post]
i do-not th-ink you have used e-no-ugh li-tt-le words and
hy-ph-en-a-tion so karl can un-der-st-and it

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, brucie!
Here goes for Karl:

You did not read all tho-se thre-ads clo-se-ly en-ough.
It is not that it looks dif-fer-ent. It is that it is
big-ger than oth-er fonts. Web-de-sign-ers think it looks
ni-ce at 85% of the o-ri-gin-al si-ze.
Pro-blem a-ri-ses when so-me-o-ne does not ha-ve Ver-da-na,
or us-es the-ir own pre-fer-red font. 85% of most oth-er
fonts ends up too small to re-ad.
That is all. If I re-ad all tho-se thre-ads pro-per-ly that is.

(OT: by hyphenating the word webdesigner I realised that
design is written de-sign. "de" means something like "taking
stuff off", right? A web-de-signer takes signs off of the
web. Makes me wonder what signs exactly.)

--
Els

Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

[Harlan Messinger]

go************@ kjsmith.com (Karl Smith) wrote:

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,

You mean, other than the detailed, logical screed, the URL to which
has been posted many times?
--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

[Neal]

On 1 Apr 2004 01:15:28 -0800, Karl Smith <go************ @kjsmith.com>
wrote:

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

The problem with Verdana is simple. If it's included at a size which is
appropriate for the purpose the font was designed to serve, replacement of
this font will inevitably lead to text that's too small.

If you use Verdana at 100% or more, replacement legibility is not an
issue. But then Verdana is pretty big. Remember, it was designed for
application in small-text situations for better readability. At normal
sizes it appears huge. That's why many web authors use it at smaller
sizes, and that's when replacement fonts become illegible.

That said, if you aesthetically like Verdana at 100% or more, it's fine.
For example, I have used Verdana for <h*> elements. If Verdana is replaced
by some other font in that context, the legibility will still be good.

The problem, therefore, isn't specifically with Verdana - it's with
applying it as it was designed to be implemented.

[Philipp Lenssen]

Karl Smith wrote:

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Is there anyone out there who has actually removed Verdana from their
computer? Perhaps they could explain what the often alluded to, but
rarely explained, "problem" really is?

I'm too afraid to do that. I heard once I try to remove it it will
return even stronger than before.

Seriously, I find Verdana and Trebuchet MS to be easy to read
on-screen, though some think especially Verdana is too big in default
size. Then again the Web's problem is not too-big fonts, but too-small
ones.

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Neal wrote:

The problem, therefore, isn't specifically with Verdana
True enough; but the only available solution at the moment as far as
stylesheet authors are concerned is not to propose it in their
stylesheets.
- it's with applying it as it was designed to be implemented.

It's with the lack of a workable font-size-adjust facility. To which
one should add that the facility as originally proposed for CSS isn't
quite what's needed, since it was based on objective em/ex factors,
and that's not the whole story as far as perceived font size is
concerned.

[jake]

In message <3d************ ************@po sting.google.co m>, Karl Smith
<go************ @kjsmith.com> writes

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different. Surely that's
the point. What would be the purpose of all these font files that
infest my computer if all the typefaces looked the same? I can't
understand the apparent level of fear and loathing, just because
something looks a bit different. "A fair go for Verdana," that's all
I'm saying.

If you really find Verdana that distracting, all you need do is remove
the font from your *personal computer* - a simple, painless operation
that will take only a few seconds. Repeatedly asserting to other
people that they should not use something just because the cult
members have chosen to dislike it makes no sense whatsoever.

Is there anyone out there who has actually removed Verdana from their
computer? Perhaps they could explain what the often alluded to, but
rarely explained, "problem" really is?

I actually like Verdana -- yes, honest.

The problem seems to stem from designers who like the appearance of
Verdana, but don't like its size. So, they set their stylesheets to show
it at less than 100%.

If the viewer doesn't have Verdana installed, then they're going to see
the 2nd, 3rd, etc. choice, or their default -- but at less than 100%.

Personally, I don't have a problem with most defaults down to 85%, but
other people do.

Take a look and decide:
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana.htm

regards.

--
Jake