Crikey! A Verdana's got my baby!

[Karl Smith]

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different. Surely that's
the point. What would be the purpose of all these font files that
infest my computer if all the typefaces looked the same? I can't
understand the apparent level of fear and loathing, just because
something looks a bit different. "A fair go for Verdana," that's all
I'm saying.

If you really find Verdana that distracting, all you need do is remove
the font from your *personal computer* - a simple, painless operation
that will take only a few seconds. Repeatedly asserting to other
people that they should not use something just because the cult
members have chosen to dislike it makes no sense whatsoever.

Is there anyone out there who has actually removed Verdana from their
computer? Perhaps they could explain what the often alluded to, but
rarely explained, "problem" really is?

--
Karl Smith.

[Duncan M.]

"jake" wrote

I actually like Verdana -- yes, honest.

The problem seems to stem from designers who like the appearance of
Verdana, but don't like its size. So, they set their stylesheets to show
it at less than 100%.

If the viewer doesn't have Verdana installed, then they're going to see
the 2nd, 3rd, etc. choice, or their default -- but at less than 100%.

Personally, I don't have a problem with most defaults down to 85%, but
other people do.

Take a look and decide:
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana.htm

Another good example (also of the inappropriate use of sans serif fonts in
general):
http://steve.pugh.net/test/test42.html
HTH
Ivo

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, jake wrote:

I actually like Verdana -- yes, honest.
Whether we like it or not is irrelevant to the issue being debated,
though. I've nothing against it in the right places (it's designed
for enhanced legibility at small pixel sizes, and it achieves that
rather well). It's still a problem.
The problem seems to stem from designers who like the appearance of
Verdana, but don't like its size. So, they set their stylesheets to show
it at less than 100%.
That's not the whole story, though. Read previous discussions.
Take a look and decide:
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana.htm

That's useless for making the kind of decision that's under discussion
here. They would have to take a look on *everyone else's* browser
before they could decide. At least Stephen Poley went part of the way
to demonstrate the problem - as best one can on an individual browser.

[Karl Smith]

Els <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote:

Karl Smith wrote:

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different.
You didn't read all those threads closely enough.
It's not that it looks different. It's that it is bigger
than other fonts.

No it isn't "bigger" at all. 20px Verdana and 20px Tahoma are both
exactly the same height - 20px. 1em Verdana and 1em Tahoma are both
exactly the same height - however many pixels I have decided 1em
should be. Which is between me and my *personal* computer, and nobody
else's business.

When you write "it is bigger", you probably mean it is wider? So what?
Why does this so distress the cult members? If you don't like the the
look of Verdana, "uninstall" it. Simple. Why would you have fonts you
don't like on your computer?

Webdesigners think it looks nice at 85% of
the original size.
Verdana at 1em and Verdana at 85% are both wide fonts, in fact they
are exactly the same font. That's the point of scalable fonts. Either
you like the look of it or you don't - it's a simple personal
preference. You're insulting our intelligence if you try to claim it
looks nice at 85% but doesn't look nice at 100%.

Problem arises when someone doesn't have Verdana, or uses
their own preferred font. 85% of most other fonts ends up
too small too read.
Set the minimum font size of your browser, that's what it's for. You
can do that at the same time you're uninstalling Verdana. It would be
far easier for the anti-Verdana kooks/cranks to configure their
browsers properly than to try to persuade the entire rest of the world
to adopt their personal preferences in typography.

That's all. If I read all those threads properly that is. ;-)

I don't think you did. Anti-Verdana threads are often also
anti-font-sizing threads, but there's a vocal few who just don't like
the wide look of Verdana and want you to not like it either. Telling
someone, "Don't use Verdana, use Tahoma instead," makes as much sense
as telling someone, "Don't use yellow backgrounds use green instead,"
just because you don't like yellow.

Is there anyone out there who has actually removed Verdana from their
computer?

I haven't.

There you go. It can't be that much of a problem then can it?
Uninstalling an unwanted font is about the simplest maintenance you
can do.

Perhaps they could explain what the often alluded to, but
rarely explained, "problem" really is?

As described above.

What you described above is the problem caused by people tupping about
with other people's font sizes, not a problem with Verdana. People who
mess with font sizes are stupid, that is a scientificly proven fact.
OTOH, such well-respected luminaries as Eric Meyer have defended the
practice of setting unreadably microscopic (with or without Verdana)
font sizes.

--
Karl Smith.

[Steve Pugh]

"Duncan M." <[e-mail] e> wrote:

Another good example (also of the inappropriate use of sans serif fonts in
general):
http://steve.pugh.net/test/test42.html

I really wouldn't use that as a particularly useful example. It's just
a quick and dirty example which doesn't show anything very surprising.

For starters the columns are far too narrow which makes the effect of
Verdana more obvious but is neither good for usability nor realistic.

In addition the CSS doesn't set a line-height and sans-serif fonts
often benefit from increasing the line-height slightly compared with
the browser default.

Interestingly, in my main browser with my particular font settings the
sans-serif column (the middle one) is actually the shortest.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Ivo]

"Steve Pugh" wrote:

"Duncan M." wrote:

Another good example (also of the inappropriate use of sans serif fonts ingeneral):
http://steve.pugh.net/test/test42.html

I really wouldn't use that as a particularly useful example. It's just
a quick and dirty example which doesn't show anything very surprising.

For starters the columns are far too narrow which makes the effect of
Verdana more obvious but is neither good for usability nor realistic.

In addition the CSS doesn't set a line-height and sans-serif fonts
often benefit from increasing the line-height slightly compared with
the browser default.

Interestingly, in my main browser with my particular font settings the
sans-serif column (the middle one) is actually the shortest.

Funny. On my system it is the middle one that is the longest, even longer
than the Verdana column, due to the automatic increase in line-height.
Maybe not a not outstanding example of CSS use, but informative anyways!
Ivo

[Ivo]

"Karl Smith" wrote:

Els wrote:

Karl Smith wrote:

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different.
You didn't read all those threads closely enough.
It's not that it looks different. It's that it is bigger
than other fonts.

When you write "it is bigger", you probably mean it is wider? So what?
Why does this so distress the cult members? If you don't like the the
look of Verdana, "uninstall" it. Simple. Why would you have fonts you
don't like on your computer?

I think Els meant "it is bigger" when she wrote "it is bigger". It looks
bigger, it appears to be bigger, visually, and it will not fit the same
amount of text as other fonts, often resulting in earlier wrapping and more
lines.

And it 's not about what we like, but what is legible by the majority of
users.

And it 's not about what fonts we have installed on our systems, but what
fonts the users of our webpages have. We do not know whether or not they
have Verdana and therefore cannot garantee a uniform look. We could try
setting a fixed fontsize but at the cost of allowing the users to resize.
Anti-Verdana threads are often also
anti-font-sizing threads, but there's a vocal few who just don't like
the wide look of Verdana and want you to not like it either. Telling
someone, "Don't use Verdana, use Tahoma instead," makes as much sense
as telling someone, "Don't use yellow backgrounds use green instead,"
just because you don't like yellow.

If that were the whole discussion, yes, but usually the advise to use an
alternative font is accompagnied by a dissertation on the aforementioned
problems posed by Verdana. All it takes reading them, which is even simpler
than uninstalling a font!!
Ivo

[Els]

Karl Smith wrote:

Els <el*********@ti scali.nl> wrote:

Karl Smith wrote:

Anyone who has read c.i.w.a.* for more than a few weeks knows that one
of the pet hates of the CIWAHians is Verdana (it's a typeface, BTW).
Future archeologists stumbling across these messages out of context
could be forgiven for thinking "Verdana" must be some kind of
dangerous animal. We must get rid of it, before it gets us!

Oddly, they can never seem to articulate *why* they dislike Verdana,
other than some vague assertion that it looks different.
You didn't read all those threads closely enough.
It's not that it looks different. It's that it is bigger
than other fonts.

No it isn't "bigger" at all.

It looks bigger.
20px Verdana and 20px Tahoma are both
exactly the same height - 20px. 1em Verdana and 1em Tahoma are both
exactly the same height - however many pixels I have decided 1em
should be. Which is between me and my *personal* computer, and nobody
else's business.

When you write "it is bigger", you probably mean it is wider? So what?
Why does this so distress the cult members? If you don't like the the
look of Verdana, "uninstall" it. Simple. Why would you have fonts you
don't like on your computer?
You're talking to the wrong person. I love Verdana. Look at
my site - http://locusmeus.com/ - all Verdana.

Webdesigner s think it looks nice at 85% of
the original size.
(I'm not officially a webdesigner ;-) )
Verdana at 1em and Verdana at 85% are both wide fonts, in fact they
are exactly the same font. That's the point of scalable fonts.
Of course. But as it is a wide font, anyone without Verdana
installed on their computer, will have to read a narrower font.
Either
you like the look of it or you don't - it's a simple personal
preference. You're insulting our intelligence if you try to claim it
looks nice at 85% but doesn't look nice at 100%.
I think it looks nice at any size.
It's the design that sometimes might look better with a
smaller font.
Wasn't trying to insult anyone's intelligence.

Problem arises when someone doesn't have Verdana, or uses
their own preferred font. 85% of most other fonts ends up
too small too read.

Set the minimum font size of your browser, that's what it's for. You
can do that at the same time you're uninstalling Verdana. It would be
far easier for the anti-Verdana kooks/cranks to configure their
browsers properly than to try to persuade the entire rest of the world
to adopt their personal preferences in typography.

If you know all your and everybody's visitors personally,
please advise them to notice the possibility of a) resizing
the text (I wouldn't want to have to feed all the IE surfers
who don't know that) b) (un)installing a font and c) setting
a minimum size font.

That's all. If I read all those threads properly that is. ;-)

I don't think you did. Anti-Verdana threads are often also
anti-font-sizing threads, but there's a vocal few who just don't like
the wide look of Verdana and want you to not like it either.

That's just plain personal preference, and usenet is a place
where one can express exactly that.
Telling
someone, "Don't use Verdana, use Tahoma instead," makes as much sense
as telling someone, "Don't use yellow backgrounds use green instead,"
just because you don't like yellow.

I think that if someone is saying 'don't use Verdana, use
Tahoma, he/she should mention the size problem at the same
time. My impression is that this usually is explained like that.
As I said, I do like Verdana, and I use it. All the time.

Is there anyone out there who has actually removed Verdana from their
computer?

I haven't.

There you go. It can't be that much of a problem then can it?
Uninstalling an unwanted font is about the simplest maintenance you
can do.

Multiplied by how many visitors?

Perhaps they could explain what the often alluded to, but
rarely explained, "problem" really is?

As described above.

What you described above is the problem caused by people tupping about
with other people's font sizes, not a problem with Verdana. People who
mess with font sizes are stupid, that is a scientificly proven fact.
OTOH, such well-respected luminaries as Eric Meyer have defended the
practice of setting unreadably microscopic (with or without Verdana)
font sizes.

I think the example at
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana.htm is showing
the 'problem' really well.

Personally, I can easily read all of those fonts at 80%. On
a 19" 1280x1024 screen. If I set my screen to 1600x1200
things are different already.

But not everybody has good eyesight.

And what Ivo said :-)

--
Els

Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

[Els]

Els wrote:

If you don't like the the
look of Verdana, "uninstall" it. Simple. Why would you have fonts you
don't like on your computer?

You're talking to the wrong person. I love Verdana. Look at my site -
http://locusmeus.com/ - all Verdana.

(if you have it installed, that is :-) )

--
Els

Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

[Harlan Messinger]

I just figured out--this is an April Fool gag, no?

[Els]

Harlan Messinger wrote:

I just figured out--this is an April Fool gag, no?

You know, that thought occurred to me too before I replied.
But I replied anyway :-)

--
Els

Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -