No future for DB2

[rkusenet]

This article is very bleak about future of DB2. How credible is the
author. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1839681,00.asp

[DA Morgan]

Anton Versteeg wrote:

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard'
DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from?
Which ranking?
Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are.

A better question would be ... why would anyone who is a technologist
rather than a marketing drone care? I don't make a living off of Oracle
selling more licenses than FireBird much less DB2 or Informix. Doesn't
affect my ability to put food on the table or keep the boat in the
water.

When a software company wants me to care about their marketshare ...
they will write me a check. Until then all I care about is the number
of available jobs and my bill rate.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)

[Joel Garry]

Larry wrote:

I duuno ... don't see any signs that IBM is losing significant market
share. Look at other examples in various industries ... for many
products, there are usually at least 2 or 3 or 4 main survivors who end
up there for the long-term. You don't even have to be the market share
leader ... just have a significant presence. Hertz/Avis,
American/United/Delta, Krups/Braun/Cuisinart, pick your example.

Man, you know how to pick some bad examples. Hertz/Avis bought by auto
manufacturers to dump unwanted cars, declining market share due to
Enterprise et al,
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...01/ai_n8624267
in as bad shape as airlines. American/United/Delta - do you not read
the papers? "These days no one can make money on the goddamn airline
business. The economics represent sheer hell." - C. R. Smith,
President of American Airlines. "A recession is when you have to
tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When
you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business." - Sir
Adam Thomson "This is a nasty, rotten business." - Robert L.
Crandall, CEO & President of American Airlines. "Today, the situation
is exacerbated with costs exceeding revenues at four times the
pre-September 11 rate. Today, we are literally hemorrhaging money.
Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped - and soon - or United will
perish sometime next year." - James Goodwin, chairman and CEO of
United's parent company UAL. The unions of the (at the time) employee
owned company forced his replacement. 17 October, 2001 "I didn't take
this job to preside over a bankruptcy. I refuse to accept that United
Airlines is collateral damage from Sept. 11." - Jack Creighton, new
chairman and CEO of UAL Corporation, 28 October 2001. UAL entered
bankruptcy on 9 December 2002. "You fucking academic eggheads! You
don't know shit. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to
wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!" - Robert L. Crandall, CEO
American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline
deregulation, 1977. "Deregulati on will be the greatest thing to happen
to the airlines since the jet engine." - Richard Ferris, CEO United
Airlines, 1976. "If we went into the funeral business, people would
stop dying." - Martin R. Shugrue, Vice-chairman Pan Am. "I can't
imagine a set of circumstances that would produce Chapter 11 for
Eastern." - Frank Lorenzo "As a businessman, Frank Lorenzo gives
capitalism a bad name." - William F. Buckley "If you would look up
bad labor relations in the dictionary, you would have an American
Airlines logo beside it." - U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall, issuing
a restraining order against an American Airlines APA pilot union sick
out, 10 Feb 1999. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8703311/ Delta about to
croak... Don't know anything about the Germans besides
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/1/6/...11662-h.htm#17 and
Braun makes a lot of money with shaver cleaning device refills.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono...formation.html

[Larry]

I didn't say anything about the economic climate of any industry at all.
They are actually very good examples.

The point (as you seem to have completely missed it) is that when you
purchase a product, you most often don't care that your buying from #1
or #2 or #3 in the industry. And being #1 or #2 or #3 is usually good
enough to maintain survival.

When you make travel plans, you don't ask which carrier leads in market
share and you don't care whether you are flying with #3 as opposed to
#1. As long as there is a good safety record, it is low in cost, and it
gets you there. If you rent a car, you don't care whether you are
renting with the market leader. In fact, Avis has been "#2" for many
years and has survived just fine. And I'd be willing to bet that outside
of business use, you wouldn't rent with Hertz or Avis anyway ... you'd
end up with a lower cost company like Alamo ... as long as the price is
right. What position in the rental market do you think Alamo is? When
was the last time you found out who the market share leader was before
buying a coffeemaker?

Larry E.

Joel Garry wrote:

Larry wrote:

I duuno ... don't see any signs that IBM is losing significant market
share. Look at other examples in various industries ... for many
products, there are usually at least 2 or 3 or 4 main survivors who end
up there for the long-term. You don't even have to be the market share
leader ... just have a significant presence. Hertz/Avis,
American/United/Delta, Krups/Braun/Cuisinart, pick your example.

Man, you know how to pick some bad examples. Hertz/Avis bought by auto
manufacturers to dump unwanted cars, declining market share due to
Enterprise et al,
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...01/ai_n8624267
in as bad shape as airlines. American/United/Delta - do you not read
the papers? "These days no one can make money on the goddamn airline
business. The economics represent sheer hell." - C. R. Smith,
President of American Airlines. "A recession is when you have to
tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When
you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business." - Sir
Adam Thomson "This is a nasty, rotten business." - Robert L.
Crandall, CEO & President of American Airlines. "Today, the situation
is exacerbated with costs exceeding revenues at four times the
pre-September 11 rate. Today, we are literally hemorrhaging money.
Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped - and soon - or United will
perish sometime next year." - James Goodwin, chairman and CEO of
United's parent company UAL. The unions of the (at the time) employee
owned company forced his replacement. 17 October, 2001 "I didn't take
this job to preside over a bankruptcy. I refuse to accept that United
Airlines is collateral damage from Sept. 11." - Jack Creighton, new
chairman and CEO of UAL Corporation, 28 October 2001. UAL entered
bankruptcy on 9 December 2002. "You fucking academic eggheads! You
don't know shit. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to
wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!" - Robert L. Crandall, CEO
American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline
deregulation, 1977. "Deregulati on will be the greatest thing to happen
to the airlines since the jet engine." - Richard Ferris, CEO United
Airlines, 1976. "If we went into the funeral business, people would
stop dying." - Martin R. Shugrue, Vice-chairman Pan Am. "I can't
imagine a set of circumstances that would produce Chapter 11 for
Eastern." - Frank Lorenzo "As a businessman, Frank Lorenzo gives
capitalism a bad name." - William F. Buckley "If you would look up
bad labor relations in the dictionary, you would have an American
Airlines logo beside it." - U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall, issuing
a restraining order against an American Airlines APA pilot union sick
out, 10 Feb 1999. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8703311/ Delta about to
croak... Don't know anything about the Germans besides
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/1/6/...11662-h.htm#17 and
Braun makes a lot of money with shaver cleaning device refills.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono...formation.html

[Bob Jones]

>>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning

that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
great technology but may loose the market.

If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
serious and start doing something about it.

I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software
surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more
services and supports are needed.

IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is
no longer a great technology by today's standard.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard'
DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from?
Which ranking?
Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are.

Let me be more clear, not just by todays standard, even by 90's standard,
Mainframe is dated. This is a well-known fact, not just my opinion.

DB2 is #3 in terms of ease-of-use, behind Oracle and SQL Server. Now that's
just my own experience. If you have read previous comments carefully, it is
really not that vague.

[Anton Versteeg]

Bob Jones wrote:

the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning
that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing
great technology but may loose the market.

If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals
serious and start doing something about it.

I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software
surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more
services and supports are needed.

IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is
no longer a great technology by today's standard.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about.
'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard'
DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from?
Which ranking?
Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are.

Let me be more clear, not just by todays standard, even by 90's standard,
Mainframe is dated. This is a well-known fact, not just my opinion.

A well known fact? Based on what? So how come customers are still
investing on this 'dated' platform.
DB2 is #3 in terms of ease-of-use, behind Oracle and SQL Server. Now that's
just my own experience. If you have read previous comments carefully, it is
really not that vague.
Ah, finally *facts* change into *opinions*
I have used both Oracle and DB2 and I find DB2 a lot easier to use.
Ok, I'll be fair , I have used DB2 a lot longer.

--
Anton Versteeg
IBM Netherlands

[rkusenet]

"Larry" <la***@nospam.n et> wrote in message news:SB******** ***********@fe1 1.lga...

I didn't say anything about the economic climate of any industry at all.
They are actually very good examples.

The point (as you seem to have completely missed it) is that when you
purchase a product, you most often don't care that your buying from #1
or #2 or #3 in the industry. And being #1 or #2 or #3 is usually good
enough to maintain survival.

When you make travel plans, you don't ask which carrier leads in market
share and you don't care whether you are flying with #3 as opposed to
#1. As long as there is a good safety record, it is low in cost, and it
gets you there. If you rent a car, you don't care whether you are
renting with the market leader. In fact, Avis has been "#2" for many
years and has survived just fine. And I'd be willing to bet that outside
of business use, you wouldn't rent with Hertz or Avis anyway ... you'd
end up with a lower cost company like Alamo ... as long as the price is
right. What position in the rental market do you think Alamo is? When
was the last time you found out who the market share leader was before
buying a coffeemaker?

I am sorry such comparisons with software tools like RDBMS is meaningless.
When you buy a air ticket, you are not making long term commitment to the
airline. The commitment is only for *that* travel. So one can ignore market
share of airlines etc.

Buying a software tool is lot more complicated. The software vendor is in
some ways your partner in business. Things like financial viability, market
share has some bearing in decision making process.

Here is an example which should be similar to buying a RDBMS tool: If you
are purchasing a car, will you go for a company

* whose market share is very low
* there are not enuf repair shops who can fix it at a reasonable cost
* there is always a fear that the manufacturer may discontinue the car
or the company may go belly up.

[Knut Stolze]

rkusenet wrote:

Here is an example which should be similar to buying a RDBMS tool: If you
are purchasing a car, will you go for a company

* whose market share is very low
* there are not enuf repair shops who can fix it at a reasonable cost
* there is always a fear that the manufacturer may discontinue the car
or the company may go belly up.

This comparison is equally off. I would not consider buying from two large
(German) car companies because they are (a) too expensive, and (b) the
quality is not up to the task (anymore). Nevertheless they have quite a
large market share - at least in Germany.

--
Knut Stolze
Information Integration Development
IBM Germany / University of Jena

[bka]

http://www.it-analysis.com/article.p...2b6519e68f558d

[Robert Klemme]

Knut Stolze wrote:

rkusenet wrote:

Here is an example which should be similar to buying a RDBMS tool:
If you are purchasing a car, will you go for a company

* whose market share is very low
* there are not enuf repair shops who can fix it at a reasonable
cost
* there is always a fear that the manufacturer may discontinue the
car or the company may go belly up.

This comparison is equally off. I would not consider buying from two
large (German) car companies because they are (a) too expensive, and
(b) the quality is not up to the task (anymore). Nevertheless they
have quite a large market share - at least in Germany.

Hm... Still better to have a product with defects and you know who is
going to fix them opposed to a product with doubtful support. And cars
and software have quite high complexity in common which makes flaws in
both cases likely.

Kind regards

robert

[DA Morgan]

Anton Versteeg wrote:

Bob Jones wrote:

Ah, finally *facts* change into *opinions*
I have used both Oracle and DB2 and I find DB2 a lot easier to use.
Ok, I'll be fair , I have used DB2 a lot longer.

Finally a bit of honesty surfaces in this thread. I think it would
be fascinating to hear from anyone that can honestly say I have far
more experience with product A than B but prefer B. Everyone always
tends to favour that which they know best ... because we have learned
how to work around its flaws.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
http://www.psoug.org
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace x with u to respond)