CSS3?

[Mark Johnson]

http://www.geo cities.com/seanmhall2003/css3/compat.html

Anyone know if Firefox, say, implements just a tad more CSS3 than
this?

I was thinking of downloading. It's free, unlike Opera.

Looks interesting, however.

[Phil Evans]

Firas wrote:

Phil Evans wrote:

Mark Tranchant wrote:

You can use it as a degradeable enhancement. Then when people try a
real browser, they can see the difference versus, say, Internet
Explorer.

I tend to take this view. I've designed sites where the nav block has
-moz-rounded-corners on the :first-child and :last-child for example

From the frying pan into the fire?

In what sense? Assuming you mean using proprietary CSS extensions, I've
made my peace with that. The HTML is valid and (hopefully) logically
marked up, so the structure is sound. I'm not relying on the rounded
corners for site usability or functionality, they're just an additional
visual treat for people who use gecko browsers. If I was using a
proprietary extension which rendered the site unusable on browsers which
didn't support it, I'd be worried, but I don't see any harm in my
current attitude . . .

Though of course I'm keen to hear alternate views :)

P

[Firas]

Phil Evans wrote:

Firas wrote:

Mark Tranchant wrote:
I tend to take this view. I've designed sites where the nav block has
-moz-rounded-corners on the :first-child and :last-child for example

From the frying pan into the fire?

In what sense? Assuming you mean using proprietary CSS extensions, I've
made my peace with that.
Yup, that :)

The HTML is valid and (hopefully) logically marked up, so the structure is sound.
Does the CSS validate? I'm not a validity fetishist--as in, writing
valid markup just for the sake of just passing the test of validity--but
it stands for interoperabilit y in my mind.

I'm not relying on the rounded corners for site usability or functionality, they're just an additional
visual treat for people who use gecko browsers.
Would you use scrollbar colouring as an additional visual treat for
those who use IE?

If I was using a proprietary extension which rendered the site unusable on browsers which
didn't support it, I'd be worried, but I don't see any harm in my
current attitude . . .

Though of course I'm keen to hear alternate views :)

Here's mine, then. Gecko-specific extensions work *just* for gecko. It's
not worse than using <marquee> (back when it wasn't even considered to
be standardized) and netscape-specific hacks. That got us into a huge
mess, didn't it.

This is not just ivory-tower theory; there's already this in the works:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-bo...-border-radius.
I'm not sure whether Mozilla supports it or not, but they should be
pressed to. And opera and IE and whatnot. Write once, read everywhere
(and on everything.)

When it comes down to it, of course, there is no real harm in using a
couple of browser-specific enhancements; the harm comes when it becomes
an overdone crutch.

Wow, my tone is really dry here--to clarify, I'm just a novice and I
don't really have a grasp on web authoring theory: I'm just relaying
what I've picked up. It could all be relative.

[kchayka]

Firas wrote:

Would you use scrollbar colouring as an additional visual treat for
those who use IE?

The only ones who think coloring scrollbars is a neat effect are the web
authors who do it. It just creates usability problems, whereas mozilla's
rounded corners do no harm.

There's a big difference, mate.

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[Jim Ley]

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 18:14:12 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

Firas wrote:

Would you use scrollbar colouring as an additional visual treat for
those who use IE?

The only ones who think coloring scrollbars is a neat effect are the web
authors who do it. It just creates usability problems, whereas mozilla's
rounded corners do no harm.

There's a big difference, mate.

Except of course the CSS working don't think it's a bad thing, they
just don't think it's easy to specify due to different platforms
having different scrollbar elements.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

[Firas]

kchayka wrote:

Firas wrote:

Would you use scrollbar colouring as an additional visual treat for
those who use IE?

The only ones who think coloring scrollbars is a neat effect are the web
authors who do it. It just creates usability problems, whereas mozilla's
rounded corners do no harm.

There's a big difference, mate.

Oh please. This is arbitary. I know users who like coloured scrollbars.

Anyway, we're talking about different things here. Would you use IE-only
code that is not a usability problem?

[kchayka]

Firas wrote:

I know users who like coloured scrollbars.
They are a minority, I'm sure. :)
Anyway, we're talking about different things here. Would you use IE-only
code that is not a usability problem?

If there was value-added without any negative side effects, maybe. I
have used IE-only code to work around its many bugs, but not for
anything else. Can't really think of anything that's worth the extra
trouble, myself.

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[kchayka]

Jim Ley wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 18:14:12 -0500, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

The only ones who think coloring scrollbars is a neat effect are the web
authors who do it.

Except of course the CSS working don't think it's a bad thing,

Regardless, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

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[Abby Hart]

"kchayka" wrote in message

I know users who like coloured scrollbars.

They are a minority, I'm sure. :)

Anyway, we're talking about different things here. Would you use IE-only
code that is not a usability problem?

If there was value-added without any negative side effects, maybe. I
have used IE-only code to work around its many bugs, but not for
anything else. Can't really think of anything that's worth the extra
trouble, myself.

Interesting thread ... can I chuck in a view from an amateur?

I'm one of those who only recently decided that (a) IE was no longer "fun"
and (b) *did* think that colored scrollbars were cool. I now use Firefox for
fun and Moz for messin' around ... (I just discovered the DOM inspector and
boy am I getting a fast lesson in why my some of my pages didn't turn out as
planned.)

Meanwhile IE it looks so plain and frumpy when I havr to look at it ... it
even makes Opera look exciting. In short IMO IE is crying out for bit of
glam ... and only a really dumb designer is gonna make the scrollbars
invisible and if he'she is that dumb then the site isn't gonna be worth
looking at anyway.

Besides ... style sheets can be loaded in 'chapters' so why not ie_body.css
and nn_body.css + the_rest.css and then use a browser sniffer ... that way
sniffy gecko-geeks won't get all outraged when they peek at the code ...
:D

[Phil Evans]

Firas wrote:

Phil Evans wrote: (snip: using -moz-rounded-corners in site design)

In what sense? Assuming you mean using proprietary CSS extensions,
I've made my peace with that.

Yup, that :)

The HTML is valid and (hopefully) logically
marked up, so the structure is sound.

Does the CSS validate?

Other than the proprietary extensions, yes :p ;)

I'm not relying on the rounded
corners for site usability or functionality, they're just an
additional visual treat for people who use gecko browsers.

Would you use scrollbar colouring as an additional visual treat for
those who use IE?

I'm with kchayka on the useability issue, but I know what you're saying
:) No, I wouldn't have any problem with using IE-only extensions for
decorative purposes. I wouldn't in practice, because I want to encourage
people away from IE ("look how shiny the site looks in other browsers!")
but I've got no philosophical objection.
Here's mine, then. Gecko-specific extensions work *just* for gecko. It's
not worse than using <marquee> (back when it wasn't even considered to
be standardized) and netscape-specific hacks. That got us into a huge
mess, didn't it.
Yup, I agree. I've justified this to myself using our oft-touted
philosophy of separating content and presentation. My content remains
the same whichever browser you use; my presentation may have additional
shininess if you're using a Gecko based browser. In the same way that
I'd expect my site to degrade in the absence of any CSS, I expect it to
still be totally usable in the absence of the -moz-* extensions. This is
the theory anyway ;)
This is not just ivory-tower theory; there's already this in the works:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-bo...-border-radius.
I'm not sure whether Mozilla supports it or not, but they should be
pressed to. And opera and IE and whatnot. Write once, read everywhere
(and on everything.)
http://tinyurl.com/32hzb [blooberry.com Netscape CSS Extensions page]
mentions this:

"It LOOKS like many of these proprietary properties are one-to-one
mappings of many of the new features in the CSS3 working draft: "User
Interface for CSS3". Since this document has not been finalized, it
looks like Mozilla decided to err on the side of caution and put the
functionality under special names until CSS3 is more complete."
Wow, my tone is really dry here--to clarify, I'm just a novice and I
don't really have a grasp on web authoring theory: I'm just relaying
what I've picked up. It could all be relative.

It's all friendly banter; I wouldn't be a true geek if I didn't enjoy
discussing this kind of stuff :)

P

[Wayne...]

> > This is not just ivory-tower theory; there's already this in the works:

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-bo...-border-radius.
I'm not sure whether Mozilla supports it or not, but they should be

<SNIP>

both mozilla and the latest version of netscape support the border radius
below.
I used it on my site as a added suprise for moz and netscape users. (and
also coz I wanted to test it out ;) )

Wayne

www.secretwebdesign.com
www.starasphost.com

code::

-moz-border-radius: 10px; /* mozilla rounded box -not work on ie etc.. */
/* you can also use it on seperate corners such as - */
-moz-border-radius-topright: 10px;
-moz-border-radius-topleft: 10px;
-moz-border-radius-bottomright: 5px;
-moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 5px;