Popups, web applications, accessibility

[Harlan Messinger]

Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?

Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good sense for
precisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional locally-installed
application interfaces. I understand some people object, on grounds having
nothing to do with disabilities, to links that generate new browser windows.
I don't know what the basis of their objection is, but I wonder whether the
same people object every time their word processing application prompts them
for information with dialog boxes (for font selection, saving the file, and
so forth) rather than removing their document from the main window and
replacing it there with the prompt. Or whether it bothers them that the Help
command launches a separate window rather than, again, replacing the
document they're working on with the Help content.

Anyway, popups are useful for web-interface applications for exactly the
same reasons. But now, learning about accessibility issues, I have read that
popups are troublesome for people using adaptive software for visual
impairments. I would have thought that it might suffice to provide a
positive indication to such users that a link will open a separate window,
to indicate in the new window that it *is* a new window, and to provide a
message in the new window indicating that it should be closed to return to
the main window.

Apparently, that's not enough, and popups aren't allowed. Trying to find out
*why* there's an outright ban, I found in Google Groups a posting explaining
that, "It is a royal pain in the posterior to find your way back to where
you started when sites start spawning new windows. In MS Windows, you
cannot assume that when you kill the new window (Alt-F4 or whatever) you
will go back to the previous windows. The OS might decide to give the
desktop the focus, for example."

If I provide cues such as those I mentioned above, is this the sole
remaining objection? If so, can this be overcome by placing a link at the
top of the popup that reads, "Return to main window", and which uses script
to explicitly activate the main window before closing the popup?

Theoretically script is also not allowed--but I had understood that that was
only if it caused changes in the interface that weren't discernible to the
disabled user. The use of script here is specifically to *make* a change
discernible to the user. Does that change things?

If none of these considerations is sufficient to override the general ban on
popups, then what does one do instead, keeping in mind that the application
*also* has to operate in a manner that will be intuitive to the sighted
user?

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

[Jim Ley]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:35:40 -0400, "Harlan Messinger"
<h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:

Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?

Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good sense for
precisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional locally-installed
application interfaces.
Not really, as they can't be controlled in the same way - for example
you can't ensure they're modal, or are closed at the same time as the
parent etc.
Anyway, popups are useful for web-interface applications for exactly the
same reasons.

It's easy enough to use script to open in page popups in modern
browsers which falls back gracefully in older ones, there's no need to
use popups - the main reason not to use them of course, is that too
many people have them turned off these days.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

[Philipp Lenssen]

Harlan Messinger wrote:

Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?

Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good
sense for precisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional
locally-installed application interfaces. I understand some people
object, on grounds having nothing to do with disabilities, to links
that generate new browser windows.

I'd say for web-based applications, different rules apply. E.g. if it's
some kind of browser-specific DHTML content management system, it might
well make sense to have "inline windows" (that is, pseudo-windows in
HTML style). But those are for intranets mostly. In a normal web
context it's really bad to have pop-ups. They're annoying.

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com

[Harlan Messinger]

"Philipp Lenssen" <in**@outer-court.com> wrote in message
news:bm******** ****@ID-203055.news.uni-berlin.de...

Harlan Messinger wrote:

Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?

Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good
sense for precisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional
locally-installed application interfaces. I understand some people
object, on grounds having nothing to do with disabilities, to links
that generate new browser windows.

I'd say for web-based applications, different rules apply. E.g. if it's
some kind of browser-specific DHTML content management system, it might
well make sense to have "inline windows" (that is, pseudo-windows in
HTML style). But those are for intranets mostly. In a normal web
context it's really bad to have pop-ups. They're annoying.

I'm back to asking what's annoying about it. I certainly understand what's
annoying about Orbitz and Classmates ads preventing you from doing your
business on a web site. I don't understand what's annoying about a popup
interface that assists you with the work you're trying to do. For example,
say a web site hyperlinks technical terms within its main text to their
definitions in a glossary that pops up. If the glossary is in a smaller,
separate window, it is readily accessible and lets you browse the entire
glossary. You also have the benefit of not losing your place in the material
you were reading. Why is that annoying? I'm not asking to be
argumentative--I really don't understand. Is it primarily the modality
issue, or is it something else?

I do appreciate the modality issue, which Jim Ley pointed out. (After all,
if even modal windows were taboo, then the browser wouldn't even be able to
show you a dialog on which to express your preference not to allow popups!)
But traditional applications effectively use plenty of modeless
dialogs--which by extension includes the menus and the tool bars.

[Harlan Messinger]

"Jim Ley" <ji*@jibbering. com> wrote in message
news:3f******** ********@news.c is.dfn.de...

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:35:40 -0400, "Harlan Messinger"
<h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:

Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?

Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good sense forprecisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional locally-installedapplication interfaces.

Not really, as they can't be controlled in the same way - for example
you can't ensure they're modal, or are closed at the same time as the
parent etc.

Anyway, popups are useful for web-interface applications for exactly the
same reasons.

It's easy enough to use script to open in page popups in modern
browsers which falls back gracefully in older ones, there's no need to
use popups - the main reason not to use them of course, is that too
many people have them turned off these days.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

[Barry Pearson]

Harlan Messinger wrote:

Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?

Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good
sense for precisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional
locally-installed application interfaces. I understand some people
object, on grounds having nothing to do with disabilities, to links
that generate new browser windows. I don't know what the basis of
their objection is, but I wonder whether the same people object every
time their word processing application prompts them for information
with dialog boxes (for font selection, saving the file, and so forth)
rather than removing their document from the main window and
replacing it there with the prompt. Or whether it bothers them that
the Help command launches a separate window rather than, again,
replacing the document they're working on with the Help content.
My own preference is that I have a choice. This principle applies to lots more
than pop-ups!

If the new page doesn't pop-up automatically, I can decide whether to simply
click on it, or right-click (or whatever) and make a choice. Depending on the
browser, right-click may offer choices such as: open in new window, open in
background window, open in new page/tab, open in new background page/tab, etc.
Note how some of these (especially with Opera) get on with things in the
background without interfering with the display until I choose to look at
them. So Opera may be downloading pages into a number of hidden tabs without
fuss.

When word processing, if I save a new file, then I need to type something in
the complete the action. I know that at the time I say "save" (or "save as"),
and did the application writer. But the web site author can't predict what my
preferences are.

(I also run with unsolicited pop-ups, Flash animation, GIF animation, and
ActiveX dialogues, inhibited by default, so that I remain in control. I wish I
knew how to stop web pages resizing the browser window too!)

I sort-of know where you are coming from. I once had pop-ups for my
photographs, although I also had a non-pop-up link for each. But I've come to
the conclusion that enough people know how to start new windows, especially if
they are using some of the cleverer browsers, that I could remove pops-from
all my sites. So I've done so.
Anyway, popups are useful for web-interface applications for exactly
the same reasons. But now, learning about accessibility issues, I
have read that popups are troublesome for people using adaptive
software for visual impairments. I would have thought that it might
suffice to provide a positive indication to such users that a link
will open a separate window, to indicate in the new window that it
*is* a new window, and to provide a message in the new window
indicating that it should be closed to return to the main window.
My own experience with using assistive technology is that it is all too easy
to get lost. That may simply be because I was inexperienced in using it. (I
was doing so to learn about how to make things more acessible, not because I
needed to).

[snip] If I provide cues such as those I mentioned above, is this the sole
remaining objection? If so, can this be overcome by placing a link at
the top of the popup that reads, "Return to main window", and which
uses script to explicitly activate the main window before closing the
popup?
See above. I am sighted, and still prefer things to be entirely under my
control. It is hard enough to deliver the material to people - trying to guess
what they want to do with it is impossible!

There may be cases where the logic of form input demands pop-ups, but I think
they are probably an exceptional case. And I wonder whether a different design
could avoid them?
Theoretically script is also not allowed--but I had understood that
that was only if it caused changes in the interface that weren't
discernible to the disabled user. The use of script here is
specifically to *make* a change discernible to the user. Does that
change things?

If none of these considerations is sufficient to override the general
ban on popups, then what does one do instead, keeping in mind that
the application *also* has to operate in a manner that will be
intuitive to the sighted user?

I'm sighted - and I want NO new windows/tabs whatsoever, unless I ask for one.
(The Google toolbar offers a configurable option about whether to open a new
window for search results. Have you thought of having an option, with the
choice stored in a cookie?)

Keep things simple and predictable, and make friends!

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/

[Harlan Messinger]

"Jim Ley" <ji*@jibbering. com> wrote in message
news:3f******** ********@news.c is.dfn.de...

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:35:40 -0400, "Harlan Messinger"
<h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:

Can you help me figure out what to do about popups?

Sometimes we develop web applications where popups make very good sense forprecisely the same reasons they make sense in traditional locally-installedapplication interfaces.
Not really, as they can't be controlled in the same way - for example
you can't ensure they're modal, or are closed at the same time as the
parent etc.

True that you can't make them modal, though modeless dialogs are effective
in many applications as well. I think you can code an event handler for the
closing of a window so that it closes its children, but that might not be
very portable. So point taken about that.

Anyway, popups are useful for web-interface applications for exactly the
same reasons.
It's easy enough to use script to open in page popups in modern
browsers which falls back gracefully in older ones, there's no need to
use popups - the main reason not to use them of course, is that too
many people have them turned off these days.

For a web application whose whole purpose is to enable users to create data
charts, one would specify in the "applicatio n requirements" that one use a
browser with, say, an SVG plug-in installed. The requirement is integral to
the application. I think in a case like that, an indication that "this
application uses popups" might be on the same level as an SVG requirement.
The user would enable popups while using the application, and then redisable
them afterwards.

My real goal here is to find out what I can realistically do *instead*, if
I'm *trying* to honor the precept of avoiding popups.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

[Jim Ley]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:00:45 -0400, "Harlan Messinger"
<h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:

My real goal here is to find out what I can realistically do *instead*, if
I'm *trying* to honor the precept of avoiding popups.

Use in page popups.

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

[Philipp Lenssen]

Harlan Messinger wrote:

I'm back to asking what's annoying about it. I certainly understand
what's annoying about Orbitz and Classmates ads preventing you from
doing your business on a web site. I don't understand what's annoying
about a popup interface that assists you with the work you're trying
to do. For example, say a web site hyperlinks technical terms within
its main text to their definitions in a glossary that pops up.
I often use <acronym title="Bla bla bla">BBB</acronym> for that and
render it with a dotted underline. You can also use <span
class="definiti on" title="Bla bla bla">Bla</span> or something.
If the
glossary is in a smaller, separate window, it is readily accessible
and lets you browse the entire glossary. You also have the benefit of
not losing your place in the material you were reading. Why is that
annoying? I'm not asking to be argumentative--I really don't
understand.

To me that's not more or less usable then loading the page in the same
window. I have my back-key which returns me to exactly where I was in
the text.

However, your example is not what makes the most typical and most
annoying pop-up. Annoying pop-ups are whenever the user doesn't expect
them, and feels he didn't control the "popping up" event. Still you
also don't make it perfectly clear you could communicate the "popping
up" intuitively and without disturbing the text flow before-hand.

Actually, as user, I would probably open those links you describe in a
new Windows myself anyway. Don't underestimate people to do what makes
sense to them, presented with a perfectly static and expectable
document.

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com

[Brian]

Harlan Messinger wrote:

now, learning about accessibility issues, I have read that popups
are troublesome for people using adaptive software for visual
impairments. I would have thought that it might suffice to provide
a positive indication to such users that a link will open a
separate window, to indicate in the new window that it *is* a new
window,
Many users block popups, either through third party software, or
directly in the browser. You don't know whether it actually *is* a
new window or not.
and to provide a message in the new window indicating that it
should be closed to return to the main window.
Imagine someone who has blocked popups: you tell them to close the
window to return to the main window, but they never left the main
window in the first place. They close that main window, and poof!
gone. I don't know what this "applicatio n" is, but it's sure to
aggravate those who must start all over again.
Apparently, that's not enough, and popups aren't allowed.
This is not an authoring issue. Popups aren't allows *by the user*.
There's nothing you can do about that (and no reason why you would
want to).
Trying to find out *why* there's an outright ban, I found in Google
Groups a posting explaining that, "It is a royal pain in the
posterior to find your way back to where you started when sites
start spawning new windows. In MS Windows, you cannot assume that
when you kill the new window (Alt-F4 or whatever) you will go back
to the previous windows. The OS might decide to give the desktop
the focus, for example."

If I provide cues such as those I mentioned above, is this the sole
remaining objection?
What will you do? Give instructions for one OS? What about others?
Will the directions conflict?
If none of these considerations is sufficient to override the
general ban on popups, then what does one do instead,
Leave the mechanics alone.
keeping in mind that the application *also* has to operate in a
manner that will be intuitive to the sighted user?

I don't understand this part. Are web pages without popups
unintuitive to sighted people? How?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me