I am building several (common) db-driven intranet sites (so I cant
post URL), using a 3-frame layout; header, menu & main pages. The
styling and some of the positioning is done via CSS.
Up until yesterday, I had incomplete Doctypes in my pages:
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.01 transitional//en">
But now I have the full/correct doctype for 4.01 transitional:
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.01 transitional//en"
"http://www.w3.org/tr/html4/loose.dtd">
But since I made the changes, I am having a few problems...
Example: Main entry page
<div class="wrapper" >
<div class="content" >
<h2>Intro</h2>
<p>Some text. Enough to word-wrap.</p>
<p>Some more text. Enough to word-wrap.</p>
<img id="MainPic" />
</div>
</div>
The relevant formatting from the CSS is as follows:
..content {
width:500px;
}
..wrapper {
text-align:center;
}
Body {
etc;
SCROLLBAR-BASE-COLOR: #f5f5dc;
etc;
}
Given all this, I would expect the text on this page to be a 500px
wide, left-justified block, which is centred within the frame. The img
should also be centred within the frame. The scrollbars should be
customised (in IE), with only the vertical scrollbar visible.
Instead, the text is a little over the full width of the frame, and
both scrollbars are visible, and are default shades. Other formatting
such as background/font colours etc are all OK.
This problem occurs on many pages, presumably for the same reasons...
I wondered if the non-standard scrollbar styling was messing things
uo, but the effect is the same with this removed...
Help! I can easily go back to the half doctype declaration/quirks
mode, but I'd rather understand this problem...
Thanks in advance
Chris 13 4221
"CJM" <cj*****@yahoo. co.uk> wrote in message
news:c2******** *************** **@posting.goog le.com... I am building several (common) db-driven intranet sites (so I cant post URL), using a 3-frame layout; header, menu & main pages. The styling and some of the positioning is done via CSS.
You are developing a new site using frames? What a pity. Up until yesterday, I had incomplete Doctypes in my pages:
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.01 transitional//en">
Yep. This causes some browsers to function in quirks mode.
But now I have the full/correct doctype for 4.01 transitional:
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.01 transitional//en" "http://www.w3.org/tr/html4/loose.dtd">
Yep. We are now in standards compliant mode. The browser is suddenly not
correcting your HTML nor working as per its old bugs.
But since I made the changes, I am having a few problems...
As you would.
Upload an example to a somewhere visible and provide the URL, not just
snippits of code and somebody may be able to help you.
Cheers
Richard. cj*****@yahoo.c o.uk (CJM) wrote: I am building several (common) db-driven intranet sites (so I cant post URL),
Create an example page and put that on any old piece of web space,
there are so many things that you may think are irrelevant but which
are needed to solve the puzzle.
using a 3-frame layout; header, menu & main pages. The styling and some of the positioning is done via CSS.
Up until yesterday, I had incomplete Doctypes in my pages: <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.01 transitional//en">
The doctype is wrong. The FPI portion of the deoctypes is case
sensitive and should be -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
But now I have the full/correct doctype for 4.01 transitional: <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.01 transitional//en" "http://www.w3.org/tr/html4/loose.dtd">
Again it's wrong for the same reason as above. However browsers (and
one browser in particular) are bad at understanding doctypes so they
probably count that as close enough to trigger Standards mode.
But since I made the changes, I am having a few problems...
Example: Main entry page
<div class="wrapper" > <div class="content" > <h2>Intro</h2> <p>Some text. Enough to word-wrap.</p> <p>Some more text. Enough to word-wrap.</p> <img id="MainPic" /> </div> </div>
The relevant formatting from the CSS is as follows:
.content { width:500px; } .wrapper { text-align:center; }
Body { etc; SCROLLBAR-BASE-COLOR: #f5f5dc; etc; }
Given all this, I would expect the text on this page to be a 500px wide,
Agreed. But remember that when moving from Quirks to Standard mode you
move from the broken IE box model to the correct one. This means that
the way that padding and borders interact with widths will change.
left-justified block,
Nope. The text should be center justified, text-align is inherited.
which is centred within the frame.
Nope. text-align should align inline content not blocks.
The img should also be centred within the frame.
Nope. It should be centered within the div class="content" block.
The scrollbars should be customised (in IE),
Bleagh. ;-)
with only the vertical scrollbar visible.
That depends.
Instead, the text is a little over the full width of the frame,
How wide is the frame?
and both scrollbars are visible,
When a page that trggers Standards mode in IE6 is in a frame it either
shows no scrollbars or both scrollbars.
and are default shades.
Really? I thought that the coloured scrollbars weren't affected by
Standards mode. Maybe because you're in a frame....
What happens (widths, scrollbars, etc.) when you view the page outside
of its frameset?
A URI would really help.
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Thanks Steve,
I'll try and knock up a demo, and then repost.
Chris
A quickie, Steve:
If I have several DIVs on a page, how do I centre the DIV within the
page, but with out centering the content of these divs?
eg:
<body or outer div>
centered content
<div id=1>
Left-aligned content
</div>
<div id=2>
Left-aligned content
</div>
more centered content
</body or /div>
This is one of the issues I have in my page, and it appears my
solution is broken when standards mode is used.
Thanks
"CJM" <cj*****@yahoo. co.uk> wrote in message
news:c2******** *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com... Hmmmm... I was going to go off on one here... But instead, I'll give you some background and an opportunity to solve the problem...
First of all, I can also recite you a dozen 'frames are bad' articles. And essentially I agree too.
However, I am actually re-vamping an existing app hence the frames. At a point in the not too distant future, I shall probably be moving to an IFrame-based solution - a little better but not ideal.
However, my hands are tied on this issue: my system will provide a header and menu system, but non-technical users will create Docs of various types (doc, xls, vsd) which maybe left in their original format or may be converted to web pages (via ms office) or PDFs. Given this requirement, what would you suggest? SHort of writing a very complex & customised CMS, I am bound by these limitations.
My solution is to show these documents in what ever format they are given, in a frame (currently a frame, soon an iframe) with an option to break out into a new window.
Do you have a better solution?
Note: Given the constraints I have specified, this is the solution the NG came up with when I asked 6 months ago.
Cheers
"EightNineThree " <ei************ @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in
message news:<bd******* ***@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>... "CJM" <cj*****@yahoo. co.uk> wrote in message news:c2******** *************** **@posting.goog le.com... I am building several (common) db-driven intranet sites (so I cant post URL), using a 3-frame layout;
stop with the frames and start over http://www.theoryxdesign.com/articles/article.php?id=2 Hmmmm... I was going to go off on one here... But instead, I'll give you some background and an opportunity to solve the problem...
First of all, I can also recite you a dozen 'frames are bad' articles. And essentially I agree too.
However, I am actually re-vamping an existing app hence the frames. At a point in the not too distant future, I shall probably be moving to an IFrame-based solution - a little better but not ideal.
However, my hands are tied on this issue: my system will provide a header and menu system, but non-technical users will create Docs of various types (doc, xls, vsd) which maybe left in their original format or may be converted to web pages (via ms office) or PDFs. Given this requirement, what would you suggest? SHort of writing a very complex & customised CMS, I am bound by these limitations.
My solution is to show these documents in what ever format they are given, in a frame (currently a frame, soon an iframe) with an option to break out into a new window.
Do you have a better solution?
Note: Given the constraints I have specified, this is the solution the NG came up with when I asked 6 months ago.
Cheers
Everyone has an excuse about why their situation is so unique that they have
to go against the advice they're given.
No matter what excuse you come up with, I'll point out a major enterprise
that has the same issue to deal with yet does not resort to frames.
--
Karl Core
Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.
CJM wrote: However, my hands are tied on this issue: my system will provide a header and menu system, but non-technical users will create Docs of various types (doc, xls, vsd) which maybe left in their original format or may be converted to web pages (via ms office) or PDFs. Given this requirement, what would you suggest? SHort of writing a very complex & customised CMS, I am bound by these limitations.
My solution is to show these documents in what ever format they are given, in a frame (currently a frame, soon an iframe) with an option to break out into a new window.
There are indeed many situations where it doesn't make too much sense,
or simply isn't possible, to convert Word / Excel / PDF or any other
non-HTML document into useful HTML. In these cases we just offer a link
to the document, ideally indicating the type and size of the file, so
that users can do with it what they want (open in the browser, save to
disc, open in the original application, whatever). I think that's more
transparent for the user than when the browser attempts to open the file
within a frameset. And some users aren't capable of saving or printing
such a "browser-embedded" file because the usual application-specific
menus are missing or incomplete.
Other than that, I have no objections to frames in this context.
Matthias cj*****@yahoo.c o.uk (CJM) wrote: If I have several DIVs on a page, how do I centre the DIV within the page, but with out centering the content of these divs?
eg:
<body> centered content <div id=1>
id=1 is invalid HTML.
See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-name
let's call them id="foo1" and id="foo2"
Left-aligned content </div> <div id=2> Left-aligned content </div> more centered content </body>
body {text-align: center}
#foo1, #foo2 {
text-align: left;
margin-left: auto;
margin-right: auto;
}
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>
If my situation is not so unique after all, why haven't you provided
any insight?
It takes a little skill to spot the problem, but a great deal more to
suggest a solution.
We are in agreement that frames are not ideal, but you know the
circumstances surrounding my problem, so suggest an alternative. What
would you recommend?
Which major enterprises do you suggest I look at?
I could point out that www.eightninethree.com uses tables for layout,
which strictly speaking goes against the grain for the web, but I
wouldnt be very helpful unless I provided further information to
enlighten you: eg. http://www.glish.com/css/ http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/ http://www.alistapart.com/stories/journey/3.html <= This one is
quite good http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/projects/11/
etc...
My point is valid, but I'm deliberately looking for faults to prove a
point. Apart from the tables, your site looks pretty good IMHO.
If you can think of a better solution than my iframe one, then point
me in the right direction.
Cheers
CJM
"EightNineThree " <ei************ @REMOVEeightnin ethree.com> wrote in message news:<bd******* ***@ngspool-d02.news.aol.co m>... Everyone has an excuse about why their situation is so unique that they have to go against the advice they're given. No matter what excuse you come up with, I'll point out a major enterprise that has the same issue to deal with yet does not resort to frames.
> id=1 is invalid HTML. See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-name let's call them id="foo1" and id="foo2"
Lol. Yes Steve, I know '1' is not a valid ID. And with one eye on XHTML, I
should really use quotes... but I was being expedient.
body {text-align: center}
#foo1, #foo2 { text-align: left; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; }
I've never seen that before. I shall try it ASAP.
Thanks.
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