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Does IE have the same problems with XHTML 1.0 Transitional as it does with HTML Transitional?

Hello,

I have read about the problems that IE has when using a doctype of HTML
4.01 Transitional. I was advised to use Strict wherever possible.

My question is, does the same apply to XHTML 1.0 Transitional? I develop
sites using ASP.NET, which emits valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional, but not
XHTML 1.0 Strict (for example, it includes a hidden form field with the
name of _VIEWSTATE, which isn't valid in Strict, but is in
Transitional).

Anyone any comments? The framework is brilliant, but I'm a bit stuck
trying to produce 100% valid code. Am I likely to have any browser
problems with XHTML 1.0 Transitional?

TIA

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)
Feb 20 '06 #1
20 2555
Alan Silver wrote:
I have read about the problems that IE has when using a doctype of HTML
4.01 Transitional. I was advised to use Strict wherever possible.
Presumably you're talking about doctype sniffing? IE6 can render a
document in one of two ways: Quirks mode which emulates the flaws of
IE5 and Standards mode which doesn't.

Quirks mode is triggered by a HTML 4.01 Transitional doctype without an
URL (i.e. <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01
Transitional//EN">) - note that it is merely the doctype that triggers
the switch to quirks mode. Whether the actual HTML matches the doctype
isn't a factor.

Standards mode is triggered by a HTML 4.01 Transitional doctype with a
URL (i.e. <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01
Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">) and by HTML
4.01 Strict doctypes.

XHTML 1.0 (Strict or Transitional) triggers Standards mode unless there
is an XML declaration (e.g. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>)
preceeding it in which case Quirks mode is triggered.
My question is, does the same apply to XHTML 1.0 Transitional? I develop
sites using ASP.NET, which emits valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional, but not
XHTML 1.0 Strict
It should be possible to make .net extrude whatever code you want it
to. It's a fairly crap tool if it doesn't.
(for example, it includes a hidden form field with the
name of _VIEWSTATE, which isn't valid in Strict, but is in
Transitional).
Eh?

I just uploaded

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<title>Test Doc</title>
</head>
<body>
<form action="/"><div><inp ut type="hidden" name="_VIEWSTAT E"
value="foo" /></div></form>
</body>
</html>

to the validator and it passed. What's the actual error you're getting?
(Note that in Strict, HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0, form inputs must be
children of block level elements such as p, div or fieldset and can not
be direct children of form.
Anyone any comments? The framework is brilliant, but I'm a bit stuck
trying to produce 100% valid code. Am I likely to have any browser
problems with XHTML 1.0 Transitional?


Not really. Assuming .net extrudes "Appendix C compliant XHTML
flavoured tag soup served as text/html", then browsers will treat it as
either Quirks Mode (X)HTML tag soup or Standards Mode (X)HTML tag soup
just the same as they would do with HTML 4.01.

Steve

Feb 20 '06 #2
In article <11************ **********@g44g 2000cwa.googleg roups.com>,
Steve Pugh <st**********@g mail.com> writes
Alan Silver wrote:
I have read about the problems that IE has when using a doctype of HTML
4.01 Transitional. I was advised to use Strict wherever possible.
Presumably you're talking about doctype sniffing? IE6 can render a
document in one of two ways: Quirks mode which emulates the flaws of
IE5 and Standards mode which doesn't.


Erm, here's where my ignorance begins to show!! I was talking about
avoiding quirks mode, which I understand to be fairly evil.
Quirks mode is triggered by a HTML 4.01 Transitional doctype without an
URL (i.e. <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01
Transitional//EN">) - note that it is merely the doctype that triggers
the switch to quirks mode. Whether the actual HTML matches the doctype
isn't a factor.

Standards mode is triggered by a HTML 4.01 Transitional doctype with a
URL (i.e. <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01
Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">) and by HTML
4.01 Strict doctypes.
Ah, I obviously got the story wrong. I thought it was Transitional that
sent IE into quirks mode and Strict that didn't. Thanks for the
clarification, that makes life much easier.
XHTML 1.0 (Strict or Transitional) triggers Standards mode unless there
is an XML declaration (e.g. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>)
preceeding it in which case Quirks mode is triggered.


So, if I have a doctype like this...

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dt d">

will this give me standards mode? If so, then I think I have solved my
problem.
My question is, does the same apply to XHTML 1.0 Transitional? I develop
sites using ASP.NET, which emits valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional, but not
XHTML 1.0 Strict


It should be possible to make .net extrude whatever code you want it
to. It's a fairly crap tool if it doesn't.


It may be possible, I don't know. I know that by default it emits XHTML
1.0 Transitional (apparently not Strict as I thought when I posted). I
don't have a problem using that, so I haven't really explored the
possibilities of changing it.
(for example, it includes a hidden form field with the
name of _VIEWSTATE, which isn't valid in Strict, but is in
Transitional).


Eh?

<snip>

OK, I could have got that badly wrong. I know that when I first started
fixing some code, I was getting problems of this sort, but maybe I'm
getting confused now. I'll need to go back and check it again.
Anyone any comments? The framework is brilliant, but I'm a bit stuck
trying to produce 100% valid code. Am I likely to have any browser
problems with XHTML 1.0 Transitional?


Not really. Assuming .net extrudes "Appendix C compliant XHTML
flavoured tag soup served as text/html", then browsers will treat it as
either Quirks Mode (X)HTML tag soup or Standards Mode (X)HTML tag soup
just the same as they would do with HTML 4.01.


Well, as far as I know, it sends out 100% valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional,
excluding the odd bug!!

Thanks very much for the reply. I think your clarification has sorted me
out.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)
Feb 20 '06 #3
Alan Silver wrote:
XHTML 1.0 (Strict or Transitional) triggers Standards mode
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dt d">

will this give me standards mode? If so, then I think I have solved my
problem.


Yes ... but client-side XHTML is silly at best[1], and the bits of HTML that
Transitional includes but Strict doesn't are almost entirely legacy junk
that should be avoided.
My question is, does the same apply to XHTML 1.0 Transitional? I develop
sites using ASP.NET, which emits valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional, but not
XHTML 1.0 Strict
Everything I've heard about ASP.NET says to avoid using its built in markup
generating code (due to its low quality). I suggest you find alternatives.
Anyone any comments? The framework is brilliant, but I'm a bit stuck
trying to produce 100% valid code. Am I likely to have any browser
problems with XHTML 1.0 Transitional?


Likely? No, but they do exist. (The problems there are due to the XHTML bit
rather than the Transitional bit though).

[1] Well, there are some exceptions, but they are exceptionally rare.
--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me .uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
Feb 20 '06 #4
On 20 Feb 2006 07:45:11 -0800, "Steve Pugh" <st**********@g mail.com>
wrote:
My question is, does the same apply to XHTML 1.0 Transitional? I develop
sites using ASP.NET, which emits valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional, but not
XHTML 1.0 Strict


It should be possible to make .net extrude whatever code you want it
to. It's a fairly crap tool if it doesn't.


According to a colleague I spoke to at lunch today (well, actually he
was doing most of the speaking), "fairly crap" is being kind. Apparently
..net does the typical Microsoft trick of thinking it knows better than
the developer, and spontaneously changes working files into non-working
files. He was an exceedingly unhappy bunny.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
Feb 20 '06 #5
In article <dt************ *******@news.de mon.co.uk>, David Dorward
<do*****@yahoo. com> writes
Alan Silver wrote:
XHTML 1.0 (Strict or Transitional) triggers Standards mode
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dt d">

will this give me standards mode? If so, then I think I have solved my
problem.
Yes ... but client-side XHTML is silly at best[1],


By "client-side" I assume you mean normal XHTML. I can't imagine why you
would be writing XHTML on the server.

Anyway, I didn't make the decision to have the framework emit XHTML, I'm
just trying to make valid sites with it!!
and the bits of HTML that
Transitional includes but Strict doesn't are almost entirely legacy junk
that should be avoided.


I probably would, I'm just trying to make sure I don't hit any problems
by using a Transitional doctype.
My question is, does the same apply to XHTML 1.0 Transitional? I develop
sites using ASP.NET, which emits valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional, but not
XHTML 1.0 Strict


Everything I've heard about ASP.NET says to avoid using its built in markup
generating code (due to its low quality). I suggest you find alternatives.


Well, I guess that most of what you heard is either well out of date, or
plain wrong!! Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying it was always like
this (it wasn't...), but the latest version of the framework outputs
100% valid XHTML (barring bugs, of which there are few if any in this
area), all conforming to accessibility guidelines. MS have done an
astonishing about face on this one. They used to be the prime offenders
in the junk code division, and they've cleaned up their act enormously.
I guess it will take quite some time for the anti-MS brigade to drop
their bashing though!!

<snip>

Thanks for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)
Feb 20 '06 #6
In article <99************ *************** *****@4ax.com>, Stephen Poley
<sb************ ******@xs4all.n l> writes
On 20 Feb 2006 07:45:11 -0800, "Steve Pugh" <st**********@g mail.com>
wrote:
My question is, does the same apply to XHTML 1.0 Transitional? I develop
sites using ASP.NET, which emits valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional, but not
XHTML 1.0 Strict


It should be possible to make .net extrude whatever code you want it
to. It's a fairly crap tool if it doesn't.


According to a colleague I spoke to at lunch today (well, actually he
was doing most of the speaking), "fairly crap" is being kind. Apparently
.net does the typical Microsoft trick of thinking it knows better than
the developer, and spontaneously changes working files into non-working
files. He was an exceedingly unhappy bunny.


In that case, I suggest he learns a bit more about how to use it
properly. The comment you have reported is inaccurate to say the least.
The framework doesn't do anything with your files. If he hasn't written
his files right in the first place, then you can't blame the framework
for not being able to work with them. With extremely few exceptions,
working files will carry on working. I'm assuming he's talking about
upgrading from one version of the framework to another. If he's talking
about going from ASP to ASP.NET, then he would be foolish in the extreme
if he expected them to work. It's a totally different environment and
barely compatible.

I'm not saying ASP.NET isn't without issues, but this simply isn't one
of them. It also depends on what version he's using. Any 1.x version is
asking for trouble. Version 2.0 is a whole new world. It emits valid and
accessible code for one thing!!

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)
Feb 20 '06 #7
Alan Silver wrote:
By "client-side" I assume you mean normal XHTML. I can't imagine why you
would be writing XHTML on the server.


You might be writing XHTML and having your CMS output HTML (which is what my
system does - partly to avoid certain problems some browsers have with
perfectly good HTML).

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me .uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
Feb 20 '06 #8
Alan Silver wrote:
In article <dt************ *******@news.de mon.co.uk>, David Dorward
<do*****@yahoo. com> writes
Yes ... but client-side XHTML is silly at best[1],


By "client-side" I assume you mean normal XHTML. I can't imagine why you
would be writing XHTML on the server.


There are benefits gained from writing/storing XHTML on the server if
your authoring/publishing environment makes use of XML tools, such as
guaranteeing well-formedness and, if you make use of a validating
parser, validity.

Of course, one could just as easily make use of SGML tools to write HTML
and ensure it's valid, but unfortunately many CMSs (particularly the
popular ones like WordPress, MovableType, etc.) don't make use of either
and there's no benefit gained either way.
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
http://GetFirefox.com/ Rediscover the Web
http://GetThunderbird.com/ Reclaim your Inbox
Feb 21 '06 #9
In article <dt************ *******@news.de mon.co.uk>, David Dorward
<do*****@yahoo. com> writes
Alan Silver wrote:
By "client-side" I assume you mean normal XHTML. I can't imagine why you
would be writing XHTML on the server.


You might be writing XHTML and having your CMS output HTML (which is what my
system does - partly to avoid certain problems some browsers have with
perfectly good HTML).


Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)
Feb 21 '06 #10

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