Doing frames, without frames?

[AES]

Would appreciate being pointed to a template or a sample web site that
will show me how to do the following frame-like organization, without
using frames.

My objective is a web site done in CSS + HTML with a primary or entry
page that shows three panels (panes, subsections, frames, pages,
whatever): A, B, C.

A = Header of the page, i.e., fixed content, across the top

B = List of short clickable topic names: "topic1", "topic2",
. . . , topic_n . . . arranged in a narrow column
down the left side of the main page, with all of these
topics always displayed in the column. Content of B can
be defined on a separate page, or on the main page --
don't care which. Scrolling within this region hopefully
not needed.

C = larger, perhaps vertically scrollable region, below A and
to the right of B that will display one or another of a
matching set of pages C1, C2, . . . , C_n . . . depending
on which of the topic links in column B is clicked.

Pages C1, . . . , Cn in turn will contain primarily names of and links
to an extended set of pages, each of these page(s) containing data on
some subtopic of the corresponding topic_n displayed in panel C.

Clicking on any of these subtopic links in region C is to open the
corresponding page(s) relevant to that subtopic *in a new, separate
window* (not in region C). Going back from (or closing?) these separate
pages should preferably return to the main window, with topic_n still
selected.

I can implement all this (I *have* implemented it) using frames ** but
frames are said to be evil. A template/outline that teaches me how to
do this without frames could save me a lot of unnecessary effort.

Thanks for any assistance . . .

[Adrienne Boswell]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed AES <si*****@stanfo rd.eduwriting
in news:si******** *************** ****@news.stanf ord.edu:

Would appreciate being pointed to a template or a sample web site that
will show me how to do the following frame-like organization, without
using frames.

Google for CSS Frames.

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

[Spartanicus]

AES <si*****@stanfo rd.eduwrote:

>I can implement all this (I *have* implemented it) using frames ** but
frames are said to be evil. A template/outline that teaches me how to
do this without frames could save me a lot of unnecessary effort.

Replacing frame functionality:

Reusing the same code for example for a site wide header or navbar: look
into server side inclusion techniques.

Having scrollable panes inside the main viewport, and/or keeping certain
panes fixed in view when the main content scrolls: DON'T; they are a
usability nightmare when done with CSS and/or Javascript. Your best
option is to drop that pursuit entirely and let the whole thing scroll
together. For the very rare instances where a separately scrollable
multi pane interface makes sense: use frames and put in a lot of effort
to circumvent some of the associated drawbacks.

Trying to force opening a new window or tab: DON'T; many people don't
want that, it often causes problems because it breaks one of the most
widely understood navigation mechanisms: the "back" feature (often
people are unaware that a new window or tab has been opened when they
have them maximized). Leave it to the user to open a new window or tab
if they choose to, don't try to force your preference onto others.

--
Spartanicus

[AES]

In article <Xn************ *************** @69.28.186.121> ,
Adrienne Boswell <ar****@yahoo.c omwrote:

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed AES <si*****@stanfo rd.eduwriting
in news:si******** *************** ****@news.stanf ord.edu:

Would appreciate being pointed to a template or a sample web site that
will show me how to do the following frame-like organization, without
using frames.

Google for CSS Frames.

Thanks! A reply as helpful as it is terse!

[And I would probably not have thought to Google on that particular, and
in retrospect clearly relevant, phrase.]

[AES]

In article <jn************ *************** *****@4ax.com>,
Spartanicus <in*****@invali d.invalidwrote:

Having scrollable panes inside the main viewport, and/or keeping certain
panes fixed in view when the main content scrolls: DON'T;

Trying to force opening a new window or tab: DON'T;

Maybe I don't understand the viewpoint here; maybe there's a terminology
problem; maybe my personal choices are just different. So, I don't mean
to argue with this response -- but I sure don't understand it.

Suppose my main page is what I list as "my personal URL" -- people who
look up me in the university directory get pointed there. From there I
want them to be able to get a quick overview of, and navigate to, any of
the many other pages I and my associates maintain.

Let's say the navigation list in pane B of my main page (narrow column
down left side) has a stable, seldom changing set of links to major
topics or topic areas: "Contact info", "Current projects", "Students",
"Publicatio ns", "Talks", etc. (and little or no add'l text) (and this
total list is short enough that scrolling is unlikely to be needed on
any reasonable browser window).

Clicking on any one of these major topics brings up a more detailed,
more frequently changing "subtopic page" in a larger pane C on the same
main page -- e.g., clicking on "Current Projects" brings up a longer
listing of current projects, with a few sentences on each project, and a
link to a much more detailed set of web pages on that project. Some of
these subtopic pages may be long enough (have enough items on them) that
they may need to scroll a bit.

Linking to a specific subtopic or project sends the viewer into a
complete, more or less free-standing "sub web site" on that project -- a
sub web site with a lot of interlinked pages on that project, starting
at an index page for that sub web site. When I interact with people
about that project, or publish something on it, I often point them
directly to the index page for that project's sub web site, totally
bypassing my main page.

And, I assure you, **neither I nor they are going to want to view that
sub web site within the more limited confines of pane C on the main page
-- they're going to want to view it on a full browser window, as large
as they can reasonably manage to open up**.

That's the objective; it seems reasonable to me. I'll read any further
responses in the same vein as this one -- maybe they will change my
views, maybe not.

[Spartanicus]

AES <si*****@stanfo rd.eduwrote:

>Having scrollable panes inside the main viewport, and/or keeping certain
panes fixed in view when the main content scrolls: DON'T;

Trying to force opening a new window or tab: DON'T;

[...]

>Let's say the navigation list in pane B of my main page (narrow column
down left side) has a stable, seldom changing set of links to major
topics or topic areas: "Contact info", "Current projects", "Students",
"Publications" , "Talks", etc. (and little or no add'l text) (and this
total list is short enough that scrolling is unlikely to be needed on
any reasonable browser window).

Clicking on any one of these major topics brings up a more detailed,
more frequently changing "subtopic page" in a larger pane C on the same
main page -- e.g., clicking on "Current Projects" brings up a longer
listing of current projects, with a few sentences on each project, and a
link to a much more detailed set of web pages on that project. Some of
these subtopic pages may be long enough (have enough items on them) that
they may need to scroll a bit.

And therein lies the problem. One of the usability problems is that a
layout that uses CSS to simulate a multi pane layout where one of the
panes may need to be scrolled at worst cannot be scrolled with the
keyboard at all, or at best the user has to use a mouse and click in
that pane first. Similarly mouse wheel scrolling may not work at all.
These are major usability problems.

Frames are less prone to such problems (although they require the user
to know the required keyboard commands), hence my advice to stick to
using frames if you insist on using independently scrolling panes.

>Linking to a specific subtopic or project sends the viewer into a
complete, more or less free-standing "sub web site" on that project -- a
sub web site with a lot of interlinked pages on that project, starting
at an index page for that sub web site. When I interact with people
about that project, or publish something on it, I often point them
directly to the index page for that project's sub web site, totally
bypassing my main page.

And, I assure you, **neither I nor they are going to want to view that
sub web site within the more limited confines of pane C on the main page
-- they're going to want to view it on a full browser window, as large
as they can reasonably manage to open up**.

So open it maximised in the existing window by using target="_top", no
need to open a *new* window/tab.

--
Spartanicus