I have the following document, at http://ataru.gomen.org/file/test.html:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
<title>Test</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
</head>
<body>
<h1>Hello, world!</h1>
<iframe></iframe>
</body>
</html>
The whole point of <iframe> is to embed a frame in a page, is it not?
But this document is not 4.01 strict, nor is it 4.01 frameset. Can I
use an <object> to get exactly the same effect as the <iframe>, or
must I resign myself to having a non-conforming page?
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cybers pace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
Jul 23 '05
28  4123 
Nick Kew wrote: An author might want to suggest a size under
some circumstances, but that's not a general case.
If the author doesn't care enough about the size to specify a width and
height, then the author shouldn't care if the width and height are set to
0.
--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
In article <pa************ *************** *@tobyinkster.c o.uk>, us**********@to byinkster.co.uk says... Nick Kew wrote:
An author might want to suggest a size under
some circumstances, but that's not a general case.
Yes, usually stuff loaded in iframe is supposed to be shown fully at
least on one direction. I don't think anybody aims to make two scrollbars
on iframe. But because this IE bug, that is much more common than just
having one.
If the author doesn't care enough about the size to specify a width and
height, then the author shouldn't care if the width and height are set to
0.
And if author goesn't care to specify size of h1, he shouldn't care if
height and width are set to 0? How the hell could author know how big
iframe should be? How could he know how big h1 would be?
--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Lauri Raittila <la***@raittila .cjb.net> wrote: > An author might want to suggest a size under
> some circumstances, but that's not a general case.
Yes, usually stuff loaded in iframe is supposed to be shown fully at
least on one direction. I don't think anybody aims to make two scrollbars
on iframe. But because this IE bug, that is much more common than just
having one.
Had you bothered to read the thread you would have noticed that we are
discussing embedding html via the object element.
If the author doesn't care enough about the size to specify a width and
height, then the author shouldn't care if the width and height are set to
0.
And if author goesn't care to specify size of h1, he shouldn't care if
height and width are set to 0? How the hell could author know how big
iframe should be? How could he know how big h1 would be?
Apples and pears, embedded html is replaced content with no intrinsic
width and/or height, h1 content is non replaced.
--
Spartanicus
In article
<et************ *************** *****@news.spar tanicus.utvinte rnet.ie>, me@privacy.net says... Lauri Raittila <la***@raittila .cjb.net> wrote:
> An author might want to suggest a size under
> some circumstances, but that's not a general case.
Yes, usually stuff loaded in iframe is supposed to be shown fully at
least on one direction. I don't think anybody aims to make two scrollbars
on iframe. But because this IE bug, that is much more common than just
having one.
Had you bothered to read the thread you would have noticed that we are
discussing embedding html via the object element.
So s/iframe/object/g. Makes no difference here.
If the author doesn't care enough about the size to specify a width and
height, then the author shouldn't care if the width and height are set to
0.
And if author goesn't care to specify size of h1, he shouldn't care if
height and width are set to 0? How the hell could author know how big
object should be? How could he know how big h1 would be?
Apples and pears,
Yes, similar, but not exactly same...
embedded html is replaced content with no intrinsic
width and/or height,
Definition: Replaced element
An element for which the CSS formatter knows only the intrinsic
dimensions. In HTML, IMG and OBJECT elements can be replaced elements.
For example, the content of the IMG element is often replaced by the
image that the "src" attribute designates.
<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#re placed-element>
I was unable to find term replaced in HTML spec.
So, if embedded html doesn't have intrinsic width and height, it can't be
replaced element. Browser should either get width and height for it by
rendering it, and then treat it as replaced, or treat it like non-
replaced content. In both cases, result is same, and it is not that width
and height are 0.
h1 content is non replaced.
Sure, but so is HTML content of object. Or at least I interpret specs
that way.
--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Lauri Raittila <la***@raittila .cjb.net> wrote: embedded html is replaced content with no intrinsic
width and/or height,
Definition: Replaced element
An element for which the CSS formatter knows only the intrinsic
dimensions. In HTML, IMG and OBJECT elements can be replaced elements.
For example, the content of the IMG element is often replaced by the
image that the "src" attribute designates.
<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#re placed-element>
This is an HTML issue, not CSS. Per HTML spec the behaviour of an object
element regarding size is undefined if no width and height are specified
and the replaced content has no intrinsic dimensions.
CSS is not a requirement for a www renderer, hence CSS rules are
irrelevant here. h1 content is non replaced.
Sure, but so is HTML content of object.
The content isn't, the embedded HTML is:
<object data="foo.html" type="text/html" width="100" height="100">
Content
</object>
--
Spartanicus
In article
<v7************ *************** *****@news.spar tanicus.utvinte rnet.ie>, me@privacy.net says... Lauri Raittila <la***@raittila .cjb.net> wrote:
embedded html is replaced content with no intrinsic
width and/or height,
Definition: Replaced element
An element for which the CSS formatter knows only the intrinsic
dimensions. In HTML, IMG and OBJECT elements can be replaced elements.
For example, the content of the IMG element is often replaced by the
image that the "src" attribute designates.
<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#re placed-element>
This is an HTML issue, not CSS.
I almost agree.
Per HTML spec the behaviour of an object
element regarding size is undefined if no width and height are specified
and the replaced content has no intrinsic dimensions.
Yes.
CSS is not a requirement for a www renderer, hence CSS rules are
irrelevant here.
But IE has CSS renderer, so they aren't irrelevant in this case. h1 content is non replaced.
Sure, but so is HTML content of object.
The content isn't, the embedded HTML is:
<object data="foo.html" type="text/html" width="100" height="100">
Content
</object>
Fine example. Could you tell any use for above code, when foo.html has
more than a little text in it? The problem is that text will overflow
object box. Or rather, won't overflow but gets scrollbars. In other
words, it is useless.
--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Lauri Raittila <la***@raittila .cjb.net> wrote: CSS is not a requirement for a www renderer, hence CSS rules are
irrelevant here.
But IE has CSS renderer, so they aren't irrelevant in this case.
Whether or not a particular UA is CSS capable or enabled is not
relevant. CSS is 100% optional and should never be assumed present. From
that also follows that you should not try and explain width and/or
height behaviour according to CSS rules when width & height are supplied
(or not supplied) as HTML attribute values. This is an HTML issue, HTML
rules apply, if there are none as in this case then the behaviour is
undefined. >> h1 content is non replaced.
>
>Sure, but so is HTML content of object.
The content isn't, the embedded HTML is:
<object data="foo.html" type="text/html" width="100" height="100">
Content
</object>
Fine example. Could you tell any use for above code, when foo.html has
more than a little text in it? The problem is that text will overflow
object box. Or rather, won't overflow but gets scrollbars. In other
words, it is useless.
A different point entirely, I'm not arguing for it's use, just that
there's nothing incorrect about IE's behaviour regarding this particular
issue.
--
Spartanicus
In article
<08************ *************** *****@news.spar tanicus.utvinte rnet.ie>, me@privacy.net says... Lauri Raittila <la***@raittila .cjb.net> wrote:
CSS is not a requirement for a www renderer, hence CSS rules are
irrelevant here.
But IE has CSS renderer, so they aren't irrelevant in this case.
Whether or not a particular UA is CSS capable or enabled is not
relevant.
Of course it is relevant, if HTML and CSS spec differ. Especially as it
is said in CSS spec that CSS rules on presentation override HTML ones.
When presentation is undefined in HTML and there is some in CSS, of
course CSS one should be used, when making CSS enabled browser.
CSS is 100% optional and should never be assumed present.
Of course, but it is bug in IE to not follow CSS spec. It has nothing to
do with assuming CSS being present. It is like saying that IE doesn't
have any CSS bugs because CSS is optional
From
that also follows that you should not try and explain width and/or
height behaviour according to CSS rules when width & height are supplied
(or not supplied) as HTML attribute values.
Why? CSS rules should be used when rendering HTML in CSS enabled browser.
IE is CSS enabled browser by default.
This is an HTML issue, HTML
rules apply, if there are none as in this case then the behaviour is
undefined.
If it is against CSS spec it is a bug. That CSS is optional doesn't make
it less bug, while CSS is enabled in IE. And it is not very good UI
planning to make something practically invisible.
There is lots of stuff that is defined in CSS but not in HTML, and is
considered bug when it doesn't work. Saying margins should not collapse
like CSS defines as it is not defined in HTML is just like this - it
applies even whitout any CSS code.
--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Lauri Raittila <la***@raittila .cjb.net> wrote: >> CSS is not a requirement for a www renderer, hence CSS rules are
>> irrelevant here.
>
>But IE has CSS renderer, so they aren't irrelevant in this case.
Whether or not a particular UA is CSS capable or enabled is not
relevant.
Of course it is relevant, if HTML and CSS spec differ. Especially as it
is said in CSS spec that CSS rules on presentation override HTML ones.
When presentation is undefined in HTML and there is some in CSS, of
course CSS one should be used, when making CSS enabled browser.
On reflection I concede that IE should use the CSS rules to establish
the width and height.
That leads us back to the question how a UA should establish the width &
height. To bring back a point you made earlier:
embedded html is replaced content with no intrinsic
width and/or height,
Definition: Replaced element
An element for which the CSS formatter knows only the intrinsic
dimensions. In HTML, IMG and OBJECT elements can be replaced elements.
For example, the content of the IMG element is often replaced by the
image that the "src" attribute designates.
<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#re placed-element>
I was unable to find term replaced in HTML spec.
So, if embedded html doesn't have intrinsic width and height, it can't be
replaced element.
Interesting conclusion, but it follows not from the definition of a
replaced element, but from the definition of intrinsic dimensions:
Definition: Intrinsic dimensions
The width and height as defined by the element itself, not imposed by
the surroundings. In CSS2 it is assumed that all replaced elements --
and only replaced elements -- come with intrinsic dimensions.
Browser should either get width and height for it by
rendering it, and then treat it as replaced, or treat it like non-
replaced content. In both cases, result is same, and it is not that width
and height are 0.
Although none of the big three rendering engines actually do this, the
behaviour you describe does now make sense to me.
--
Spartanicus This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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