I'm trying to get my head around a problem that has me baffled.
The following element:
#wrapper {border:1px solid #000;background :#fff;}
Renders as expected when using this DTD:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
But when switching to this DTD:
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
Neither the outline or background colour is rendered.
What am I missing?
Jul 21 '05
34  4442 
Gus Richter wrote:
I have read the document and highly respect Ian Hixie's opinion.
The following section taken from the document probably should have been
at the very beginning:
"(Yes, I said _most_ authors. If you are one of the few authors who
understands how to avoid the issues raised in this document and does
validate all their markup, then this document probably does not
apply to you -- see Appendix B.)"
The gist of the document, as I read it, is the separation of authors
into two categories. The conscientious and the not-so-conscientious with
the hypothesis that most are of the latter type. The document goes on
outlining pitfall scenareos involving the not-so-concsientious as well
as specific problems and how to take care of them.
A second quote in the document that I would like to comment on:
"Sending XHTML 1.1 as text/html is NEVER fine. There is no spec that
allows this."
On the other hand, neither does the spec require the use of
application/xhtml+xml.
Thanks to Michael, I have the missing link of:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/>
which says that text/html for XHTML 1.0 _may_ (optional) be used, and
that text/html for XHTML 1.1 _should not_ be used (not recommended, but
could be used after due considerations and need).
So there we have it. Ian and I are in agreement. XHTML served as
text/html is perfectly acceptable, but is _not_ for the
_not-so-conscientious_ and they should stick with HTML or serve up their
documents as application/xhtml+xml, which forces them to be
conscientious, but lose out with legacy browsers.
An item I would like to address as used elsewhere in this thread:
"Tag soup" as used in the document refers to SGML features which are not
supported by browsers and are taken advantage of by Appendix C.
The question, if browsers should support these SGML features, is
actually beside the point. The fact is that browsers don't and members
of the W3C agreed to take advantage of this.
A second item used elsewhere in this thread that I would like to address
is the suggestion that moving to XHTML is not recommended by W3C and
that it is ok to stay with HTML:
XHTML 1.0 does not deprecate HTML since that is not the intent. XHTML
1.0 is a reformulation of HTML 4 which means that HTML 4 is carried
forward, but slightly (or not so slightly depending on your point of
view) modified by, and into, XHTML 1.0 which therefore, and in other
words, replaces/modifies/changes/appends the latest HTML 4.01
recommendation with what is stated in XHTML 1.0.
I quote from XHTML 1.1 which cleanly seperates/removes/deletes:
"... the *deprecated* , legacy functionality of HTML 4 that
was brought forward into the XHTML 1.0 ..."
Whereas HTML 4 itself is not deprecated, the deprecated elements and
attributes are removed in XHTML 1.1.
It is clear to me that HTML 4 has been replaced by XHTML 1.0 and it in
turn has been replaced by XHTML 1.1.
The section below is *way incorrect* and I wish to retract it in its
entirety since nobody has corrected me within the last 18 hours, so
disregard it with my appologies.
A third and last item, suggested elsewhere in this thread, that I would
like to address is that Appendix C of XHTML 1.0 is not applicable to
XHTML 1.1:
I quote once more from XHTML 1.1:
"This document type [XHTML 1.1] is essentially a reformulation of
XHTML 1.0 Strict ..."
I will not repeat what I said in the second item, immediate above,
except to say that likewise, XHTML 1.0 is brought forward in its
entirety and changed per what is stated in XHTML 1.1.
Perhaps the difficulty is that XHTML recommendations are not completely
separate/self-standing documents as we were used to with HTML 3.2 to 4
to 4.01 and with CSS 1 to CSS 2 to CSS 2.1. With XHTML 1.0 we have to
look at HTML 4.01 *and* XHTML 1.0 and with XHTML 1.1 we have to look at
HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0 *and* XHTML 1.1. (I know that I am leaving out SGML.)
Permit me to restate what I hope is correct:
XHTML 1.0 is the only document which incorporates another, specifically
that of HTML 4.01.
XHTML 1.1 led me astray by the mention of its own Appendix C which I
wrongly took to be that of XHTML 1.0 due to ever presence in mind.
XHTML 1.1 is once again a separate/self-standing document and does *not*
carry forward XHTML 1.0 with its Appendix C, nor HTML 4.01, but uses
Modules to redefine elements and attributes.
I now agree that Appendix C of XHTML 1.0 is not applicable to XHTML 1.1.
Although XHTML 1.1 has the XHTML Legacy Markup Module for legacy browser
support, I fail to find anything regarding empty elements, minimized
tag syntax, or space before the trailing /> (and other XML conforming
and compatibility guidelines), so we are left to apply Appendix C of
XHTML 1.0 on our own, assuming that it also applies to XHTML 1.1? [All
this because of the legacy IE 6/5.5 browsers' popular usage to-date.]
I left the bottom section, since it still applies and gives an excuse.
Pardon me if I may sound like an authority. That is not my intent, and
God knows that I am not. I read and come to conclusions. I really long
to learn, to be corrected if I am wrong, or affirmed in my understanding.
Hoping for comments and/or corrections,
--
Gus
Gus Richter schrieb: Justin Lieb wrote: Gus Richter wrote:
XHTML served as text/html is perfectly acceptable,
With all the ifs and whens, I wouldn't use the word "perfectly" .
[Ian] is against XHTML because he does not trust authors to be
consciencious in their work.
And from my observations he is fucking right about that.
he says that if you are a conscientious author, then his document can be disregarded
Yes, but ...
(since you will assuredly create a proper XHTML document served up as text/html).
.... that's only one option.
The perfectionist creates two (cached) versions on the browser's demand
('Accept'): XHTML 1.1 and HTML 4.01 Strict. (I have sometimes advocated
to combine this with other "advanced" technologies, such as
uncompromised use of Unicode and CSS-P.) At some point he will realize,
though, that just one version yields the least problems (e.g. with
caching) and thus become a realist. If he's not that much of a
perfectionist anyway, he will perhaps choose to use the version in
between the two aforementioned ones, HTML 1.0, then chop that down to
HTML4 tagsoup compatibility (Appendix C), losing in practice the one
real difference between them, well-formedness, but still has the
size-Xtended, readability-reduced code (closing tags are often).
Otherwise he'll choose well-written HTML4.
[i] treat authors alike with the understanding that their XHTML documents
account for all issues raised in Appendix C (and in Ian's document).
What he forgets is that such an untrustworthy type of author will also
likely fail to create a proper document with HTML by not validating
their document, so his solution to assuring a proper document creation
is really no perfect solution.
He does not forget that. HTML parsers are already tagsoup parsers,
actually ever have been. Current XHTML parsers are way less
error-forgiving, but as long as they are not invoked, there's appearing
more and more mal-formed XML material on the Web. So chances grow that
in a few years a very strict XML parser isn't usable anymore, because,
although it is invoked more often, there's so much legacy pseudo-XML
content, that needs error-tolerant handling, which than will be added in
different ways in different browsers. And history repeats itself. Just
imagine Internet Explorer 7 would accept a/x+x, but put it through a
forgiving parser ... The whole reason for XHTML was lead ad absurdum.
Therefore all XML content should be parsed by XML parsers.
Ian just wants to keep XHTML clean (IMVHUnderstand ing).
If you don't need the X, don't use XHTML!
Ian does not say that serving XHTML up as text/html is illegal, which it
is not.
Note that the inversion is not true, it is not always legal to send
XHTML as text/html. In fact that legality is the exception.
Use text/html for HTML and XHTML 1.0 Appendix C only.
Only use X1C, if you gain any benefit from it---which pretty much nobody
actually does. For those using XML tools in the content generation
process, conversion/output to HTML is in general quite simple (it's for
instance a standard feature of XSLT). Many tools still only output HTML
out of the box, many others only broken XHTML (which is worse).
In fact, Appendix C.11 suggests that an XHTML document may be served as text/html.
Yes, one, and only one, that is adhering to the (informative) rules of
that very appendix (which I wish had never existed, at least not inside
the XHTML1 spec).
I believe that I am a conscientious author,
Too many do believe that about themselves. Life seems simpler that way.
(I'm not doubting your judgment, but don't acknowledge it either.)
Christoph Päper wrote:
Ian just wants to keep XHTML clean (IMVHUnderstand ing).
If you don't need the X, don't use XHTML!
I understand where you and Ian are coming from, but here is the problem;
I wish to conform with W3C guidance and not stagnate with the stagnant
IE thereby allowing it to overrule and dictate. I believe that choosing
the former as the lesser of the two evils.
Use text/html for HTML and XHTML 1.0 Appendix C ...
Agreed.
... only.
Actually, as I mentioned in my other posting:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/>
says that text/html for XHTML 1.1 _should not_ be used (not recommended,
but _could_ be used after due considerations and need).
Although XHTML 1.1 has the XHTML Legacy Markup Module for legacy browser
support, I fail to see how this can be useful without serving the
document up as text/html if such support is desired.
--
Gus
Christoph Päper wrote: he says that if you are a conscientious author, then his document can
be disregarded
Yes, but ...
(since you will assuredly create a proper XHTML document served up as
text/html).
... that's only one option.
The perfectionist creates two (cached) versions on the browser's demand
('Accept'): XHTML 1.1 and HTML 4.01 Strict.
Danke Christoph,
I have investigated this first option and believe this to be the ideal
solution along with some PHP. With all the negative talk in newsgroups,
I had not realized that there were people that actually covered this
ground and have come up with a working solution.
Now I have more investigation ahead of me and more testing. Thank you
for the prod in the right direction.
--
Gus
> Unless you post a URL, all you'll get are guesses, albeit educated ones.
Guesses, educated or not, are not what I was after. I posted as my
searching had proven fruitless. If it was a known issue then the replies
would have been thick and fast. I'm trying to fill a gap in my knowledge.
BTW, posting code instead of a URL isn't the same.
The idea of the code was to show there is nothing clever being attempted ie
no hacks, and after a change to the doctype the element lost it's border
and background colour.
People don't want to be bothered having to make their own page
from your code. Make it easy for us to help you and you'll
get better results. Posting a URL makes it easier for us.
I don't expect anyone to write a page...well...a few lines...anyhoo. ..I
posted as I am trying to understand why the change in doctype would do
this, not to get help with the markup. It could be the CMS we are using
which already has a number of quirks and this would be another to add to
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