Given that UNIX, including networking, is almost entirely coded in C,
how come so many things are almost impossible in ordinary C? Examples:
Network and internet access, access to UNIX interprocess controls and
communication, locale determination, EBCDIC/ASCII discrimination, etc.
Almost all of these are easy in Perl. Why isn't there a mechanism like
perl modules to allow easy extentions for facilities like these? Isn't
anyone working on this problem? or is it all being left for proprietary
systems?
Sep 2 '08
223  7359 
On 4 Sep 2008 at 9:02, jacob navia wrote:
Operator overloading is not an objective per se. It is a means of
making libraries that use lists, flexible arrays and other sequential
containers interoperable using the same notation:
data[2]
to acces the third element of a list/array/other
Trouble is, you quickly end up pulling in a whole load of other stuff
too. You start out thinking how nice it is to be able to write
c=(a+b)*d;
instead of
mpf_add(c, a, b);
mpf_mul(c, c, d);
and then before you know it you've got overloaded functions because
b=sqrt(a);
is simpler than
mpf_sqrt(b, a);
Then it's iterators so that you can meaningfully overload ++ to index
your list/array/other...
And before you know it, you've got a horrible mess...
Antoninus Twink wrote:
On 4 Sep 2008 at 9:02, jacob navia wrote:
>Operator overloading is not an objective per se. It is a means of
making libraries that use lists, flexible arrays and other sequential
containers interoperable using the same notation:
data[2]
to acces the third element of a list/array/other
Trouble is, you quickly end up pulling in a whole load of other stuff
too. You start out thinking how nice it is to be able to write
c=(a+b)*d;
This is nice
instead of
mpf_add(c, a, b);
mpf_mul(c, c, d);
That is ugly.
and then before you know it you've got overloaded functions because
b=sqrt(a);
is simpler than
mpf_sqrt(b, a);
lcc-win provides overloaded functions already. Not a big deal.
Then it's iterators so that you can meaningfully overload ++ to index
your list/array/other...
Surely not. That doesn't follow at all. Why it is so complicated
to write a loop?
And before you know it, you've got a horrible mess...
If you do not know how to stop!
Your argument is similar to this:
Antoninus: DO NOT DRINK MILK!!!!
Jacob: But... Why? Milk is tasteful and good for your health.
Antoninus: Yes, but then you drink 8 liters and you are DEAD!
--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatique http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
On 4 Sep 2008 at 17:14, jacob navia wrote:
Antoninus Twink wrote:
>And before you know it, you've got a horrible mess...
If you do not know how to stop!
Sure... unfortunately the main historical example is Bjarne Stroustoup,
who definitely didn't know how to stop!
Personally I see nothing wrong with writing
C-with-the-odd-nice-C++-feature and compiling it with a C++ compiler.
In article <g9**********@a ioe.org>, jacob navia <ja***@nospam.o rgwrote:
>Kenny McCormack wrote in response to loony Eric Sosman:
>Calm down. Take your medicine. You'll feel better soon.
But then Jacob picked up the ball thusly:
>Kenny, you did not answer my post...
You consider C really dead?
I mean your opinion *is* important (at least to me)
Well, thank you for that.
Basically, my opinion is irrelevant (in this context). My purpose in
posting was to alert the newbie to the nature of this newsgroup. Sort
of a "newbie's guide to CLC. Despite the name, this is *not* a
technical newsgroup!". So, at least for the moment, I was parrotting
the view held by the regs (which is that it is for legacy and embedded
only, since their highly restrictive definition of what C is makes it
impossible to do anything interesting in it). This is the view held by
the CLC regs, aka, the Heathfield clique. Heathfield (et al) of course,
denies it all (lying as they always do).
In the "for what it is worth" department...
My own opinion on C is that it is still useful as a systems language
(that is, for building OSs and other useful tools), but since this is
completely outside the scope (read: off topic, not portable, blah, blah,
blah) of this NG, you're kinda stuck. Finally, no, I don't think that,
in 2008, C is an honest choice for new development at the purely
applications level.
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:57:32 +0000 (UTC), ga*****@shell.x mission.com
(Kenny McCormack) wrote:
>In article <g9**********@a ioe.org>, jacob navia <ja***@nospam.o rgwrote:
>>Kenny McCormack wrote in response to loony Eric Sosman:
>>Calm down. Take your medicine. You'll feel better soon.
But then Jacob picked up the ball thusly:
>>Kenny, you did not answer my post...
You consider C really dead?
I mean your opinion *is* important (at least to me)
Well, thank you for that.
Basically, my opinion is irrelevant (in this context). My purpose in
posting was to alert the newbie to the nature of this newsgroup. Sort
of a "newbie's guide to CLC. Despite the name, this is *not* a
technical newsgroup!". So, at least for the moment, I was parrotting
the view held by the regs (which is that it is for legacy and embedded
only, since their highly restrictive definition of what C is makes it
impossible to do anything interesting in it). This is the view held by
the CLC regs, aka, the Heathfield clique. Heathfield (et al) of course,
denies it all (lying as they always do).
In the "for what it is worth" department...
My own opinion on C is that it is still useful as a systems language
(that is, for building OSs and other useful tools), but since this is
completely outside the scope (read: off topic, not portable, blah, blah,
blah) of this NG, you're kinda stuck. Finally, no, I don't think that,
in 2008, C is an honest choice for new development at the purely
applications level.
But a knowledge of C seems to be a prerequisite for learning some other
things, such as Win32, various GUIs, certain modules in Perl, etc. which
are useful for applications.
----
Everybody needs somebody that they can look down on.
If you ain't got noone else, why, help yourself to me.
"James Kuyper" <ja*********@ve rizon.netwrote in message
news:AlPvk.565$ Wd.61@trnddc01. ..
Bartc wrote:
>"Keith Thompson" <ks***@mib.orgw rote in message
news:ln******* *****@nuthaus.m ib.org...
>>jacob navia <ja***@nospam.c omwrites:
>>>C is good only for systems work, etc etc, new development or
applicatio n dveelopment should be done in better languages, etc.
Which, one more time, is not what he said.
Er, I think he did:
"
It is (in my opinion) a mistake to try to push C (in any variant)
as a general solution for all programming problems. It's a
good choice for the systems programming that it was designed for,
although it still has deficiencies even for that. I would rather
the time spent discussing directions for C concentrate more on
remedies for its remaining deficiencies for systems work than on
trying to support applications where there are better choices.
"
Once again, you're converting non-absolute statements into absolute ones.
To show you how you've misinterpreted, I'll rewrite it so that it actually
supports your misinterpretati on:
DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT MY OPINION - IT IS NOT DOUG'S OPINION - IT IS NOT
ANYONE'S OPINION, AFAIK:
"It is a mistake to try to push C (in any variant) as a solution for any
programming problem other than the systems programming tasks that it was
designed for, although it still has deficiencies even for that. Time spent
discussing directions for C should be exclusively spend on remedying its
remaining deficiencies for systems work, and not on trying to support
applications where there is always a better choice."
Can you see the difference between my re-write and what he actually said?
Do you understand that your statements apply only to my rewrite, and not
to the original? I only changed a few words, but the result is that it
converts a legitimate point of view (which I don't fully share) into a
statement that could only be made by an idiot.
It's not too hard to read between the lines of the original. Clearly he has
the skills to put across what he thinks without making any hard and fast
commitments. Tact and diplomacy I think it's called.
But the same ideas have been expressed by others in this thread. So in the
clc world at least Jacob seems to be fighting a losing battle in getting any
official support for his work.
--
Bartc
Pilcrow said:
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:57:32 +0000 (UTC), ga*****@shell.x mission.com
(Kenny McCormack) wrote:
<snip>
>>Finally, no, I don't think that,
in 2008, C is an honest choice for new development at the purely
application s level.
But a knowledge of C seems to be a prerequisite for learning some other
things, such as Win32, various GUIs, certain modules in Perl, etc. which
are useful for applications.
Right. It's also a really-nice-to-have for reading technical docs, since
they are often illustrated with C fragments (cases in point:
Aho-Sethi-Ullman (the Dragon Book), Petzold (Programming Windows), Knuth
(TAOCP)). It's good for writing libraries, since so many languages can
link to C libraries nowadays.
And of course it's good for new development at the applications level, if
it's the language that suits you best for that need. For some, it's the
right choice. For others, it isn't. Sweeping generalisations need not
apply.
BTW before taking Kenny McCormack too seriously, check out his technical
contributions to this group (if you can find any).
--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk >
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
"Richard Heathfield" <rj*@see.sig.in validwrote in message
>
And of course it's good for new development at the applications level, if
it's the language that suits you best for that need. For some, it's the
right choice. For others, it isn't. Sweeping generalisations need not
apply.
You don't want lots of languages swilling about your development
environment. Personally I like almost everything in C. However I will knock
up a few Perl scripts to avoid hardcoding paths into C source - they seldom
do anything much I couldn't do as easily in C - and then I've got legacy
Fortran 77 to "maintain".
You get into the way of Fortran 77 coding after a while. Basically you've
got do loops, arrays, if blocks, and gotos. Nothing much else. It's a very
pure programming experience.
--
Free games and programming goodies. http://www.personal.leeds.ac.uk/~bgy1mm
"Richard Heathfield" <rj*@see.sig.in validwrote in message news
Malcolm McLean said:
>I trust you are now joining the campaign for 64 bit ints.
Why? They're legal already. In any case, one day they will be too small.
Think the campaign for real ale rather than the campaign to free the weed.
I don't think we will actually run out of integers with 64 bits. With 32
bits yes, you can't quite give one to everyone in the world. But 64 bits
aren't going to have that problem for a long time yet.
--
Free games and programming goodies. http://www.personal.leeds.ac.uk/~bgy1mm
"jacob navia" <ja***@nospam.c omschreef in bericht
news:g9******** **@aioe.org...
Ian Collins wrote:
>Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>Ian Collins said:
So my point is C fills its (large) niche very well and the only
worthwhile changes are small improvements (like mandating function
prototypes and expunging gets) to improve the quality of C code.
Actually, the really worthwhile changes are never going to happen. For
example, I do actually think it would be worth adding operator
overloading to C - but I know that ISO is never going to buy that, and I
don't see any point in fighting a losi... well, not /that/ losing
battle, anyway.
I'm sure they would be, but how many embedded C compiler vendors are
offering operator overloading as an extension?
Operator overloading is not an objective per se. It is a means of making
libraries that use lists, flexible arrays and other sequential
containers interoperable using the same notation:
data[2]
to acces the third element of a list/array/other
I really would not implement operator[] for a linked list. operator[] has
the semantics of being a random access operator. A linked list is not a data
stucture one would use when random access is needed and operator[] would
have to loop to the correct index every time which is suddenly invisible
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