Given that UNIX, including networking, is almost entirely coded in C,
how come so many things are almost impossible in ordinary C? Examples:
Network and internet access, access to UNIX interprocess controls and
communication, locale determination, EBCDIC/ASCII discrimination, etc.
Almost all of these are easy in Perl. Why isn't there a mechanism like
perl modules to allow easy extentions for facilities like these? Isn't
anyone working on this problem? or is it all being left for proprietary
systems?
Sep 2 '08
223  7359 
Lassie wrote:
>
"jacob navia" <ja***@nospam.c omschreef in bericht
news:g9******** **@aioe.org...
>Ian Collins wrote:
>>Richard Heathfield wrote:
Ian Collins said:
So my point is C fills its (large) niche very well and the only
worthwhil e changes are small improvements (like mandating function
prototype s and expunging gets) to improve the quality of C code.
Actually, the really worthwhile changes are never going to happen.
For example, I do actually think it would be worth adding operator
overloadin g to C - but I know that ISO is never going to buy that,
and I don't see any point in fighting a losi... well, not /that/
losing battle, anyway.
I'm sure they would be, but how many embedded C compiler vendors are
offering operator overloading as an extension?
Operator overloading is not an objective per se. It is a means of making
libraries that use lists, flexible arrays and other sequential
containers interoperable using the same notation:
data[2]
to acces the third element of a list/array/other
I really would not implement operator[] for a linked list. operator[]
has the semantics of being a random access operator. A linked list is
not a data stucture one would use when random access is needed and
operator[] would have to loop to the correct index every time which is
suddenly invisible from the programmer.
Well, if you are using a list and you need the nth element you will
have to start at the start and go to the nth. That is because of the
data structure used.
When you see that you are accessing random elements you change your
declaration to a flexible array and you have more efficient random
access. And you do not need to change the code.
I agree that operator overloading has its drawbacks within this context.
Specially because even if it *can* be used to standardize access to
sequential containers, it needs furthe standards to be able to define
the operations in a meaningful way (like First, next, last, etc).
--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatique http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
Antoninus Twink <no****@nospam. invalidwrote:
>
Trouble is, you quickly end up pulling in a whole load of other stuff
too. You start out thinking how nice it is to be able to write
c=(a+b)*d;
instead of
mpf_add(c, a, b);
mpf_mul(c, c, d);
and then before you know it you've got overloaded functions because
b=sqrt(a);
is simpler than
mpf_sqrt(b, a);
Then it's iterators so that you can meaningfully overload ++ to index
your list/array/other...
And before you know it, you've got a horrible mess...
You mean C++? ;-)
--
Larry Jones
My brain is trying to kill me. -- Calvin
Richard Heathfield <rj*@see.sig.in validwrote:
>
No, I would not be so foolish as to attack you for daring to propose a
change to the C language. I'm just curious as to why you propose it here,
since nobody here has any authority to change the language definition
(except Larry, perhaps, since he's actually a voting member of the ISO C
Committee). It seems rather pointless.
Actually, at the moment I'm not a voting member of the committee. I am,
however, the document editor. Which role provides more *authority* to
change the language definition I can't say, but the latter role
certainly provides more *opportunity* to do so. :-)
--
Larry Jones
I hate being good. -- Calvin
jacob navia <ja***@nospam.c omwrote:
>
How would you make different libraries interoperate with lists,
flexible arrays, arrays, double linked lists, etc?
Like the old joke says: If I were going there, I wouldn't be starting
from here.
--
Larry Jones
Can I take an ax to school tomorrow for ... um ... show and tell? -- Calvin
jacob navia <ja***@nospam.c omwrote:
>
I need 10 thousand euros (15 000 US$) to buy the AFNOR
(French ISO organization) to present my proposal after
I got sponsored by some company.
That's not necessary -- committee meetings are open to the public.
Anyone is welcome to attend and participate in the discussions and even
straw votes, just not formal votes. Requests for agenda time (e.g., for
a presentation) are normally granted, particularly when made reasonably
in advance. The committee even tries to meet in a variety of locations
to make it easier for people to attend.
--
Larry Jones
How am I supposed to learn surgery if I can't dissect anything? -- Calvin la************@ siemens.com said:
<snip>
Actually, at the moment I'm not a voting member of the committee. I am,
however, the document editor. Which role provides more *authority* to
change the language definition I can't say, but the latter role
certainly provides more *opportunity* to do so. :-)
"He who drafts the document wins the day" - Jay and Lynn, in "Yes,
Minister"
--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk >
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999 la************@ siemens.com wrote:
jacob navia <ja***@nospam.c omwrote:
>How would you make different libraries interoperate with lists,
flexible arrays, arrays, double linked lists, etc?
Like the old joke says: If I were going there, I wouldn't be starting
from here.
Very funny.
If you wanted to go there you would not use C isn't it?
Obvious. This is comp.lang.c.
The basic assumption here seems to be
"Any software development should be done in C++". We are here to
(1) remain people not to cast malloc().
(2) The prototype of main is
int main (void)
NOT
void main(void)
(3) i = i++; is not a good idea.
And that was it.
Any serious proposal for discussion meets the same fate.
VERY FUNNY.
--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatique http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32 la************@ siemens.com wrote:
jacob navia <ja***@nospam.c omwrote:
>I need 10 thousand euros (15 000 US$) to buy the AFNOR
(French ISO organization) to present my proposal after
I got sponsored by some company.
That's not necessary -- committee meetings are open to the public.
If the public can afford the trip, obviously.
I proposed that they set up a web site or similar place
where we could propose things (since they do not bother
to read comp.std.c as I heard in that group in the last
discussion)
No answer.
Anyone is welcome to attend and participate in the discussions and even
straw votes, just not formal votes. Requests for agenda time (e.g., for
a presentation) are normally granted, particularly when made reasonably
in advance. The committee even tries to meet in a variety of locations
to make it easier for people to attend.
Do you know where the next meeting is?
--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatique http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
jacob navia wrote, On 04/09/08 00:08:
Flash Gordon wrote:
>>
Are you claiming that C should be used as a general solution to ALL
programming problems?
You have not answered this question and it is the only part of my post
you have quoted.
Obviously Gwyn thinks that C is good for "System programming",
You obviously think C should not be used for systems programming. So
what language should be used for systems programming? Should I write an
OS in Javascript?
where
it is unclear why system programming needs gets() and trigraphs...
You apparently are of the same opinion.
If you check back you will find I argued in favour of deprecating gets
as a minimum when it was discussed. However, I don't expect you to te
the truth about what other people have stated.
By leaving application programming for other languages, you
effectively destroy C.
OK, some of the developers are working on a web based application and
they need some code to execute on the client (which could be Windows,
Linux, MacOS 9, MacOS X, a Microsoft PDA, a Backberry or anything else.
One requirement for the application being that they do not install
anything on the client. According to you they should write this
client-side code in C and compile it for every target and install it on
thousands of devices at each customer site. Personally I think using one
of the scripting languages is more appropriate, but you obviously disagree.
Application programming should be done in "evolved" languages
and C should be kept at the level of gets() with a library
conceived in the 70s and still bug-compatible with that
one.
The above directly contradicts statements I have made on this group. For
example if you read this thread you will see me arguing for gets being
deprecated as a first step towards it being removed from the standard http://groups.google.com/group/comp....685069103a8477
I am claiming that C can be used for general application
programming.
So write a client side script for a web application that will work on
the three internet enabled devices I have in this room with any of the
web browsers currently installed (I will permit changing security
setting for this purpose). I will upload the executable you provide on
my web-site and test it. Oh, and I'm not telling you what the devices are.
On the other hand the last major piece of applications programming I did
was in C, and for the next piece part of the job will be converting some
code from Perl to C.
It needs just a single modification
(operator overloading)
Many people disagree with you.
and a rewrite of the standard library
to be able to be very useful in application programming.
I've found it useful in the recent applications programming I've done.
Some things could be improved. As to the networking, graphics and the
like, I just use suitable third-party libraries.
Why?
Because it is a *simple* language. Simple languages are easier to
understand and use, and have less surface for bugs.
I've seen a lot of bugs in code written in simpler languages.
I am opposed to most current trends in language development exactly
because I think that simplicity is a virtue and simple things are
basically much more powerful than complicated ones.
And in that aim you want to make C more complicated.
--
Flash Gordon
jacob navia <ja***@nospam.c omwrote:
Antoninus Twink wrote:
And before you know it, you've got a horrible mess...
If you do not know how to stop!
Your argument is similar to this:
Antoninus: DO NOT DRINK MILK!!!!
Jacob: But... Why? Milk is tasteful and good for your health.
Antoninus: Yes, but then you drink 8 liters and you are DEAD!
Unfortunately, operator overloading is nothing like milk (after all, I
did not overload Clive Sinclair's operators when I was a programming
baby), but much more like heroin. Sure, there are people who can take
one taste of it and then leave off, but the evidence is overwhelming
that most people get badly addicted.
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