The Future of C++ ?

[blangela]

If you had asked me 5 years ago about the future of C++, I would have
told you that its future was assured for many years to come. Recently,
I have been starting to wonder.

I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
no longer interested in learning C++. They would rather learn .NET
languages or Java (my colleages who teach these courses seem to be very
busy!). I believe it is because these other languages are easier to
learn and/or are perceived to be more relevant today.

I do believe that C++ is more difficult to learn than many of these
other languages. Despite my best efforts to make them exciting, I see
the eyes of my students start to glaze over when I start explaining
pointers. When I ask them to tokenize an english sentence (using the
strtok() function) and print the token in reverse order (they need to
declare an array of type char * and save the addresses of the tokens in
this array), I experience near panic from many of my students. But
these concepts need to be taught in a responsible C++ course. As was
pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
programmers.

The ironic part is there is still a large demand for C++ developers
here in Vancouver. In fact, the company that I believe employs the
most developers here in Vancouver, employs almost entirely C++
programmers. This company, Electronic Arts (if you have not heard of
them, I guarantee that your kids have -- they create video games) is
only one of several gaming companies here in Vancouver that employ
primarily C++ programmers. Other companies like Kodak, MDSA, Nokia,
MDSI, etc. also employ large numbers of C++ programmers. Not
surprisingly, I have talked to several companies here in Vancouver who
are complaining that they are having difficulty finding C++ developers
and are looking at trying to recruit from abroad (eastern Europe
primarily).

I believe that many of these companies will be forced to migrate away
from C++ in the near future, simply because they will not be able to
find C++ programmers in the future. Soon the baby boomer C++
programmers will begin to retire, then the proverbial @@@@ will really
start to hit the fan!

Please tell me I am wrong, and paint me a view of the future which
includes C++.

[Tony]

"Frederick Gotham" <fg*******@SPAM .comwrote in message
news:Ee******** ***********@new s.indigo.ie...

Greg:

>Such a shortfall in the marketplace, the thinking goes, allows C++
programmers to command higher salaries than their work is worth
economically - and they can thank C++'s complexity for the entire
difference.

But that's how all professions work! If just anyone could design space
shuttles, then NASA would pay peanuts.

A loooong time ago, I worked in a place where there were union workers.
That's where I learned the concept "job security". Not that _I_ ascribe to
such strategy (I feel there is an infinite amount of stuff to do after
tackling
what I'm currently working on) but some actually LIKE the "mundane,
repetitive, non-cognitive" work. But to milk it like that is probably
"wrong".

And the only reason I bring up that concept, is because.. well we've all
seen products that are produced just to make money right? Where is
C++ at this juncture along those lines? I dunno, but if "it" ever turns a
corner and starts imposing policy or paradigm, I'll stop using it and
call it proprietary.

Tony

[Tony]

"Frederick Gotham" <fg*******@SPAM .comwrote in message
news:Ee******** ***********@new s.indigo.ie...

Maybe we can categorise people as follows:

(1) They go for manual transmission from Day 1.
(2) They start off with automatic transmission, then move on to manual
transmission.
(3) They start off with automatic transmission and stay with it their
whole
life.

Stop this stuff already, puh-leese!

Tony
(An analogy taken too far is like two in the bush. Let me explain... well,
it's
like rock-n-roll guitar "music": it's not really music, it's masturbation!).

[Tony]

<sw****@post.sk wrote in message
news:11******** *************@f 16g2000cwb.goog legroups.com...

Tony wrote:

>Yes, I believe templates are overused and cause a lot of "bad"
programming.
Because, very few people know how to use templates judiciously and
sparingly. I guess that's because the STIL isn't very good at teaching
good
template usage. Many view it as a mechanism as common as the 'for loop'.
I wouldn't teach anyone templates until they've programmed a few years.
(Just a tad facetious to make the point in that last sentence).

Tony

I believe that developers are using templates too few.

Well you're obviously wrong. ;)

The book I suggest to C++ beginners is Accelerated C++.

That's a fine book. I have it in my bookshelf also. It's title though
says "advanced", and I think there it should stay. It's not first course
material or entry-level programmer stuff. I highly recommend that
book though: it really teaches the underlying themes/mechanisms.

I didn't
actually read it

Well it more of a research book than a book to read.

One of the more remarkable facts about the book is that template
functions are introduced in chapter 8 while classes are left for the
chapter 9. I think it's not because they are more important than
classes, but rather because they are easier to learn and they can
simplify your code.

I didn't really like the examples either. The whole student/grades thing
is so boring.

In your OOP orientation you fail to see that you often need helper
functions to simplify the code and improve its readability.

No, that's an assumption you are making (and assumptions are most
often wrong you know).

Bluntly put, if you avoid using templates, you avoid one of the best
features of C++.

Templates are optional. "Use them if you are lazy". ;) (No, I won't
expound on that, so don't ask).

Tony

[Tony]

"blangela" <Bo***********@ telus.netwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ j72g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .

>
AP********@gmai l.com wrote:

>blangela wrote:

I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years.

I think it is important to note that because a C++ course is becoming
smaller in Vancouver, Canada does not mean that the C++ language as a
whole is dying. Who knows, it could be that the University has less
students as a whole. Also, this is an introductory course so people
may be taking other languages to start out and then moving up to C++
later.

I notice that I have not seen a single post in this thread from an
instructor stating that their C++ classes are increasing in size, or
even maintaining their size. I know that I get students from UBC (one
of the 2 large local uniiversites, the other being SFU) who want to
learn C++. They complain that it is no longer available at UBC. Also,
when I first started teaching C++, there were several other local
colleges doing the same. Now I believe only BCIT (where I teach) is
still doing so.

Well note too that the bookstores are dumbing down the book selection to
commercial product manuals rather than computer science stuff. Today's
generation of "programmer s" are closer to assembly line workers than
their predecessors.

Tony

[Tony]

"Frederick Gotham" <fg*******@SPAM .comwrote in message
news:Kv******** ***********@new s.indigo.ie...

blangela:

>I notice that I have not seen a single post in this thread from an
instructor stating that their C++ classes are increasing in size, or
even maintaining their size.

Programming instructors don't tend to be of the highest proficiency.

Those who can DO, those who can't TEACH?

Tony

[kwikius]

Tony wrote:

"kwikius" <an**@servocomm .freeserve.co.u kwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ l39g2000cwd.goo glegroups.com.. .

There is no money behind C++ except from companies and maybe many of
their interests lie elsewhere.

Whatever that means.

Its the lack of good libraies that will kill C++ AFAICS.

Example please. What area is missing "good libraries" and what would,
for you, make it a "good" library? (Perhaps FREE?)

"Standard". GUI, graphics, dlls, IPC, concurrency.
regards
Andy Little

[Phlip]

Tony wrote:

Stop this stuff already, puh-leese!

Tony, you are being successfully trolled. Let it have the last word.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[kwikius]

Tony wrote:

"kwikius" <an**@servocomm .freeserve.co.u kwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ l39g2000cwd.goo glegroups.com.. .

A big problem is the libraries. There are often questions on
comp.lang.c++ regarding Graphics and a GUI on the one hand and also
vehement responses on the other that C++ doesnt need a standard GUI or
graphics libraries There seems to be powerful interests at work. It is
surely in some peoples interests that C++ does become ever more
complicated with out any actual usability features (e.g libraries for
common tasks) and more and more newcomers will simply stick with Java
and C# and so on, where they can get the libraies off the nearest
shelf.

Someone else please chime in on the availability of C++ libraries. There is
a lot of them available. I think what you are saying is that you don't want
to shop/evaluate/choose from a number of them (?).

I don't and more to the point beginners to the language don't or rather
won't. They will and do already use another language where those
libraries are available. Supermarkets are more successful than
specialists. Why, because people havent got the time to go around all
the specialist shops individually. Most things people want in a
supermarket are similar and 'good enough', and there is nothing
stopping them going to a speciailist if they wish. Further in the
supermarket everything is compatible "generic" (e.g barcodes), feedback
on one product can be used for others. cross fertilisation occurs
formally and informally The supermarket is also a meeting place for
people who want different products, so you can usually get advice from
someone in there as to whether some product is good or not.

Go ask in the specialist shop and their particular product is bound to
be marvellous of course.

regards
Andy Little

[blangela]

Tony wrote:

"blangela" <Bo***********@ telus.netwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ j72g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .

AP********@gmai l.com wrote:

blangela wrote:
I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years.

I think it is important to note that because a C++ course is becoming
smaller in Vancouver, Canada does not mean that the C++ language as a
whole is dying. Who knows, it could be that the University has less
students as a whole. Also, this is an introductory course so people
may be taking other languages to start out and then moving up to C++
later.

I notice that I have not seen a single post in this thread from an
instructor stating that their C++ classes are increasing in size, or
even maintaining their size. I know that I get students from UBC (one
of the 2 large local uniiversites, the other being SFU) who want to
learn C++. They complain that it is no longer available at UBC. Also,
when I first started teaching C++, there were several other local
colleges doing the same. Now I believe only BCIT (where I teach) is
still doing so.

Well note too that the bookstores are dumbing down the book selection to
commercial product manuals rather than computer science stuff. Today's
generation of "programmer s" are closer to assembly line workers than
their predecessors.

Tony

I agree with you on this point. I know of a Java instructor at my
school who feels it is a waste of time to teach students data
structures or sorting algorthms -- Java provides different container
classes and sorting algorthms to select from, so why should the student
need to learn these topics. I disagree. I feel that there is still
room for the "science" in "computer science".

[blangela]

Tony wrote:

"Frederick Gotham" <fg*******@SPAM .comwrote in message
news:Kv******** ***********@new s.indigo.ie...

blangela:

I notice that I have not seen a single post in this thread from an
instructor stating that their C++ classes are increasing in size, or
even maintaining their size.

Programming instructors don't tend to be of the highest proficiency.

Those who can DO, those who can't TEACH?

Tony

Tell that to Einstein. I read somewhere that he taught for many years.