I understand that the standard Python distribution is considered
the C-Python. Howerver, the current C-Python is really a combination
of C and Python implementation. There are about 2000 Python files
included in the Windows version of Python distribution. I'm not sure
how much of the C-Python is implemented in C but I think the more
modules implemented in C, the better performance and lower memory
footprint it will get.
I wonder if it's possible to have a Python that's completely (or at
least for the most part) implemented in C, just like PHP - I think
this is where PHP gets its performance advantage. Or maybe I'm wrong
because the core modules that matter are already in C and those Python
files are really a think wrapper. Anyhow, if would be ideal if Python
has performance similar to Java, with both being interpreted languages.
Jack
Dec 9 '07
71  3351 
sturlamolden <st**********@y ahoo.nowrites:
On 10 Des, 23:49, a...@pythoncraf t.com (Aahz) wrote:
>"Premature optimization is the root of all evil in programming."
--C.A.R. Hoare (often misattributed to Knuth, who was himself quoting
Hoare)
Oh, I was Hoare? Thanks. Anyway, it doesn't change the argument that
optimizing in wrong places is a waste of effort.
Although sometimes people seem to think that it goes "optimisati on is
the root...". The "premature" bit is significant.
On Dec 11, 2007 1:25 PM, John Nagle <na***@animats. comwrote:
sturlamolden wrote:
On 10 Des, 23:49, a...@pythoncraf t.com (Aahz) wrote:
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil in programming."
--C.A.R. Hoare (often misattributed to Knuth, who was himself quoting
Hoare)
We're ten years into Python, and it's still a naive interpreter.
This is an absurd misrepresentati on of the state of the Python VM.
It's time for a serious optimizing compiler. Shed Skin is going
in the right direction. But for some reason, people seem to dislike the
Shed Skin effort. Its author writes "Am I the only one seeing the potential
of an implicitly statically typed Python-likea-lnguage that runs at
practically the same speed as C++?"
"For a set of 27 non-trivial test programs (at about 7,000 lines in total;
... measurements show a typical speedup of 2-40 times over Psyco, about 10 on
average, and 2-220 times over CPython, about 35 on average." So that's
what's possible.
.... with roughly a hundredth of the python standard library, and a
bunch of standard python features not even possible. I like
generators, thanks.
If shedskin can actually match Pythons feature set and provide the
performance it aspires to, thats great, and I may even start using it
then. But in the meantime, hardly anything I write is CPU bound and
when it is I can easily optimize using other mechanisms. Shedskin
doesn't give me anything that's worth my time to improve on it, or the
restrictions it places on my code. I think JIT is the future of
optimization anyway.
I'm surprised that Google management isn't pushing Guido towards
doing something about the performance problem.
Assuming your conclusion (ie, that there's a performance problem to do
something about) doesn't prove your case.
sturlamolden <st**********@y ahoo.nowrites:
On 10 Des, 23:54, Bruno Desthuilliers
<bdesth.quelque ch...@free.quel quepart.frwrote :
>Or a lack of time and money. Lisp is one of the older programming
languages around, and at a time had BigBucks(tm) invested on it to try
and make it practically usable.
Yes. But strangely enough, the two Lisp implementations that really
kick ass are both free and not particularly old.
Not two, but one -- SBL is simply a fork of CMU CL. As for their age,
the CMU CL states that it has been "continuall y developed since the
early 1980s".
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:25:32 -0800, John Nagle wrote:
sturlamolden wrote:
>On 10 Des, 23:49, a...@pythoncraf t.com (Aahz) wrote:
>>"Premature optimization is the root of all evil in programming."
--C.A.R. Hoare (often misattributed to Knuth, who was himself quoting
Hoare)
We're ten years into Python, and it's still a naive interpreter.
It's time for a serious optimizing compiler. Shed Skin is going in the
right direction. But for some reason, people seem to dislike the Shed
Skin effort. Its author writes "Am I the only one seeing the potential
of an implicitly statically typed Python-like-language that runs at
practically the same speed as C++?"
"For a set of 27 non-trivial test programs (at about 7,000 lines in
total;
... measurements show a typical speedup of 2-40 times over Psyco, about
10 on average, and 2-220 times over CPython, about 35 on average." So
that's what's possible.
I'm surprised that Google management isn't pushing Guido towards
doing something about the performance problem.
Maybe because it isn't as much a problem as people with C envy assume it
must be? (Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting that John is one of those
people.)
Not that I'd object to anyone else doing the work to speed up Python, but
for the things I use Python for, I've never felt the need to say "Gosh
darn it, my script took twelve milliseconds to run, that's just too
slow!!!". Maybe Google are in the same boat?
Actually, in Google's case, I guess their bottleneck is not Python, but
trying to push around gigabytes of data. That will be slow no matter what
language you write in.
--
Steven.
John Nagle schrieb:
sturlamolden wrote:
>On 10 Des, 23:49, a...@pythoncraf t.com (Aahz) wrote:
>>"Premature optimization is the root of all evil in programming."
--C.A.R. Hoare (often misattributed to Knuth, who was himself quoting
Hoare)
We're ten years into Python, and it's still a naive interpreter.
It's time for a serious optimizing compiler. Shed Skin is going
in the right direction. But for some reason, people seem to dislike the
Shed Skin effort. Its author writes "Am I the only one seeing the potential
of an implicitly statically typed Python-like-language that runs at
practically the same speed as C++?"
"For a set of 27 non-trivial test programs (at about 7,000 lines in
total; ... measurements show a typical speedup of 2-40 times over Psyco,
about 10 on average, and 2-220 times over CPython, about 35 on
average." So that's
what's possible.
No, it's not. Shedskin is interesting, but just a small subset of Python
- and without completeness, performance is useless.
The PyPy approach is much more interesting - first create a
full-featured Python itself, then create optimizing backends for it,
also for just a language subset - RPython.
And if possible - which it is only in a very limited set of cases for
not type-annotated code - identify parts that conform to RPython's
constraints, and compile that JITly.
Diez
John Nagle a écrit :
sturlamolden wrote:
>On 10 Des, 23:49, a...@pythoncraf t.com (Aahz) wrote:
>>"Premature optimization is the root of all evil in programming."
--C.A.R. Hoare (often misattributed to Knuth, who was himself quoting
Hoare)
We're ten years into Python, and it's still a naive interpreter.
It's time for a serious optimizing compiler.
Care to provide a less "naive" one ?
(snip usual rant)
I'm surprised that Google management isn't pushing Guido towards
doing something about the performance problem.
Could it be possible they don't see Python's perfs as a "problem" ?
Ok, I don't mean there's no room for improvement here. If you feel like
addressing the problem, you're welcome - in case you didn't notice,
Python is free software.
On 11 Des, 20:25, John Nagle <na...@animats. comwrote:
Shed Skin effort. Its author writes "Am I the only one seeing the potential
of an implicitly statically typed Python-like-language that runs at
practically the same speed as C++?"
Don't forget about Pyrex and PyPy's RPython.
By the way, we don't need a hotspot JIT compiler. Lisp has a compiler
invoked by the programmer. We could include optional static typing in
Python, and have an optional static optimizing native compiler for
selected portions of code. That would be easier to implement in the
short run, with JIT-capabilities added later. Pyrex, ShedSkin or
RPython are all good starting points.
sturlamolden a écrit :
-snip)
We could include optional static typing in
Python,
Please wait - going to get my gun...
On Dec 12, 2:18 am, Kay Schluehr <kay.schlu...@g mx.netwrote:
On Dec 12, 7:34 am, sturlamolden <sturlamol...@y ahoo.nowrote:
I am not sure why a new type annotation syntax was needed Python 3:
Because people care about a feature when there is @syntax.
Good point; the inverse is not true though: time and time again people
cared about some syntax for properties without any change so far. The
result is a handful of different ways to spell out properties; python
2.6 will add yet another variation ( http://mail.python.org/pipermail/
python-dev/2007-October/075057.html).
George
On Dec 12, 9:04 am, George Sakkis <george.sak...@ gmail.comwrote:
On Dec 12, 2:18 am, Kay Schluehr <kay.schlu...@g mx.netwrote:
On Dec 12, 7:34 am, sturlamolden <sturlamol...@y ahoo.nowrote:
I am not sure why a new type annotation syntax was needed Python 3:
Because people care about a feature when there is @syntax.
Good point; the inverse is not true though: time and time again people
cared about some syntax for properties without any change so far. The
result is a handful of different ways to spell out properties; python
2.6 will add yet another variation (http://mail.python.org/pipermail/
python-dev/2007-October/075057.html).
George
Yes, I'm aware. Curiously, whenever property syntax is discussed the
discussion loses track and is dragged away by needless side
discussions. Just look at Stephen Bethards withdrawn PEP 359 [1] in
which he finally muses about replacing the class statement by the make
statement. So the PEP ended in "abstract nonsense" instead of
clarifying the point.
[1] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0359/
I vaguely remember a discussion a few years ago, where someone made
the quite reasonable suggestion of introducing some kind of
thunk_statement :
class A(object):
foo = property:
def fget(self):
return self._foo
def fset(self, value):
self._foo = value
which was translated as follows:
class A(object):
def thunk():
def fget(self):
return self._foo
def fset(self, value):
self._foo = value
return vars()
foo = propery(**thunk ())
del thunk
Now people started to consider using the compound statement within
expressions as well because the equal sign is used within method
signatures and call syntax. This lead to a general discussion about
the expr/statement distinction in Python, about multiline lambdas and
functional style programming. These association graphs are almost
predictable. This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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