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What IDE are you using?

P: n/a
First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

Oct 23 '05 #1
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121 Replies


P: n/a
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.


I'm not using an IDE, EditPlus is all I need. But if I would want to use an
IDE, I would go for Eclipse.
JW

Oct 23 '05 #2

P: n/a
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.


I use gPHPEdit(www.gphpedit.org), but then I would - I'm the author of it!

That won't help you though as it doesn't work under Windows (yet,
someone is giving porting a go). It also doesn't have debugging
support, but it does have integrated help (using PHP HTML docs) and a
class browser.
Cheers,
Andy
Oct 23 '05 #3

P: n/a
So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor? Well, many computer
gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it take too much time for
a novice like to remember all the members and functions or look them up
in the manual? I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.

Janwillem Borleffs wrote:
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.


I'm not using an IDE, EditPlus is all I need. But if I would want to use an
IDE, I would go for Eclipse.
JW


Oct 23 '05 #4

P: n/a
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor? Well, many computer
gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it take too much time for
a novice like to remember all the members and functions or look them
up in the manual? I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.


True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force you to
remember functions, which I think is a benefit.
JW

Oct 23 '05 #5

P: n/a
Janwillem Borleffs said the following on 23/10/2005 17:06:
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor? Well, many computer
gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it take too much time for
a novice like to remember all the members and functions or look them
up in the manual? I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.

True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force you to
remember functions, which I think is a benefit.


Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

That's just a massive pain in the arse, and surely must slow you down
considerably, especially when you only find you made a mistake at
run-time... You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it
raw! :)
Admittedly, the benefit of class-views etc. must be somewhat limited for
a dynamically-typed language like PHP. But in strongly-typed languages
like C++, C# or Java that have *massive* APIs, intellisense and
class-views etc. are an absolute god-send.

IMO, being a good programmer is not about knowing the fine details of
the language syntax; syntax is just a means to an end.

--
Oli
Oct 23 '05 #6

P: n/a
Oli Filth wrote:
Janwillem Borleffs said the following on 23/10/2005 17:06:
Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

That's just a massive pain in the arse, and surely must slow you down
considerably, especially when you only find you made a mistake at
run-time... You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it
raw! :)
Admittedly, the benefit of class-views etc. must be somewhat limited for
a dynamically-typed language like PHP. But in strongly-typed languages
like C++, C# or Java that have *massive* APIs, intellisense and
class-views etc. are an absolute god-send.

IMO, being a good programmer is not about knowing the fine details of
the language syntax; syntax is just a means to an end.


I'm with Janwillem on this. I use a text editor. I have no problems
remembering function names, parameters, etc. And if I do, the only help
is only a click away.

I've tried other IDEs which provide code completion, etc. I find they
slow me down.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
Oct 24 '05 #7

P: n/a
I use PHPEdit from www.waterprrof.fr. It is free for personal use.

--
Tony Marston

http://www.tonymarston.net

"Janwillem Borleffs" <jw@jwscripts.com> wrote in message
news:43***********************@news.euronet.nl...
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.


I'm not using an IDE, EditPlus is all I need. But if I would want to use
an IDE, I would go for Eclipse.
JW

Oct 24 '05 #8

P: n/a
I just use pico and google. For web software I find it easier to code
seperate scripts to do different things rather than mass everything
into one large script. Since each script is only a few hundred lines
and long and is independent of other scrtips, pico and google work fine
for me!

Oct 24 '05 #9

P: n/a
> but doesn't it take too much time for a novice like to remember
all the members and functions or look them up in the manual?
Provided your manual is in an electronic format, for example
this one:

http://www.zeusedit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

it should be easy enough to have your editor/ide integrate
with the manual, making it possible to search the manual
with a single key press and have the results displayed in
an instant.
I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.


Zeus for Windows offers the speed of a text editor with IDE
features like class browsing, syntax highlighting, code
folding etc:

http://www.zeusedit.com/php.html

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows
NOTE: Zeus is shareware (45 day trial).

Oct 24 '05 #10

P: n/a
Gw
Currently I'm using a text editor (http://www.textpad.com being my
editor of choice) and that's been fine for the majority of projects
I've worked on, but I do miss the convenience of a powerful IDE like
DevStudio.

PHPEd from NuSphere (http://www.nusphere.com/) looks pretty good -
built in debugger, profiler, SOAP client and stuff. The trial version
is sitting on my computer, I just haven't had time to look at it yet.
Has anyone used it, and what do they think?

Cheers

Gwaredd
http://red-dawg.co.uk

Oct 24 '05 #11

P: n/a
Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out there
other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for large
scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more
then textpad, obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project.
When you have multiple people if not teams working on the same project,
its a bloody pain in the ass to have to look up what some tool, in some
other department called a fanction and what parameters it takes.

Thats only the start, IDEs (Zend) in this case provide me with several
other features:

1) Debugger, this is a must, being able to view objects / array /
variables run time, cuts down development time by at least 50% (probably
more). Instead of having to print_r() every second line to find out
whats going on.

2) Integratted PHPDoc, those of you who came out with guns blazing
saying TextPad is all I need ra.. ra.. ra.. May not have the use for it,
but my team and I certainly do.

Integrated CVS, FTP, SFTP, Database browser, Table Browser (for most
db's including oracle 10g), Code analyser, profiler, watches,
breakpoints, projects, auto indentatio.

Thats just a few of the features that come to mind, yes Zend support is
really terrible... I mean really bad. But as far as large scale PHP
development goes you can't go past it. Yes, I understand that people
strugle with change, but you are prooving nothing to me saying that you
can do it all with TextPad. I used to be in the same shoes, sure you can
do it with TextPad, its only going to take you alot more time.
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

Oct 24 '05 #12

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out there
other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for large
scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more
then textpad, obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project.
When you have multiple people if not teams working on the same project,
its a bloody pain in the ass to have to look up what some tool, in some
other department called a fanction and what parameters it takes.

Please don't tell me what I have or have not worked on. I have been on
a couple of very large PHP projects, probably much larger than anything
you've been on (50+ programmers, several hundred K LOC).

No, it's NOT hard to determine what other departments have done. It's
called DOCUMENTATION.
Thats only the start, IDEs (Zend) in this case provide me with several
other features:

1) Debugger, this is a must, being able to view objects / array /
variables run time, cuts down development time by at least 50% (probably
more). Instead of having to print_r() every second line to find out
whats going on.

2) Integratted PHPDoc, those of you who came out with guns blazing
saying TextPad is all I need ra.. ra.. ra.. May not have the use for it,
but my team and I certainly do.

Integrated CVS, FTP, SFTP, Database browser, Table Browser (for most
db's including oracle 10g), Code analyser, profiler, watches,
breakpoints, projects, auto indentatio.

Thats just a few of the features that come to mind, yes Zend support is
really terrible... I mean really bad. But as far as large scale PHP
development goes you can't go past it. Yes, I understand that people
strugle with change, but you are prooving nothing to me saying that you
can do it all with TextPad. I used to be in the same shoes, sure you can
do it with TextPad, its only going to take you alot more time.


Sure, Zend has some advantages. Some or the people on the projects used
it. Others didn't.

I don't object to change. I tried Zend. The debugger is great. But
the IDE was too slow and limiting.

I'm not saying Zend or other IDE's are bad. They aren't. But what
works for one person does not work for every person. I work much faster
with a text editor than when using Zend. And most of our most
experienced programmers found the same. The newer programmers were more
likely to use Zend or some other IDE.

Interestingly enough, it was the most experienced programmers with their
text editors who invariably had the highest production and fewest errors.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
Oct 24 '05 #13

P: n/a
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor?
I use XEmacs...
Well, many computer gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it
take too much time for a novice like to remember all the members and
functions or look them up in the manual?
That's why god invented the web! ;-)

One window in XEmacs, one in Firefox at http://php.net... And one OS to
bind them all... :-)
I think code completion and class view really helps people like me.


That might be nice but it doesn't beat dabbrev mode where one can not
only code complete function names but anything like variable names, etc.
Oct 24 '05 #14

P: n/a
Oli Filth wrote:
True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.
Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?


Of what benefit is there to be using functions that you don't know
intimately?!?

Perhaps it's clearest benefit is the realization that any such library
that has hundreds/thousands of functions is way to complex to be using!
That's just a massive pain in the arse, and surely must slow you down
considerably, especially when you only find you made a mistake at
run-time... You might as well be programming in assembler if you like
it raw! :)
Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people still
program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm
Admittedly, the benefit of class-views etc. must be somewhat limited
for a dynamically-typed language like PHP. But in strongly-typed
languages like C++, C# or Java that have *massive* APIs, intellisense
and class-views etc. are an absolute god-send.

IMO, being a good programmer is not about knowing the fine details of
the language syntax; syntax is just a means to an end.


Being a good programmer is understanding the nature and workings of the
code you write and the code you use.
Oct 24 '05 #15

P: n/a
On 23 Oct 2005 09:00:05 -0700, ty*******@gmail.com top posted like a
newbie and wrote:
So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor? Well, many computer
gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it take too much time for
a novice like to remember all the members and functions or look them up
in the manual? I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.


If by "people like me" you mean people who really don't want to take
the time to learn, then yeah, it helps. You're relying on whomever
wrote the code completion to "know what you meant to do". Hardly a
good thing.

--
gburnore at DataBasix dot Com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How you look depends on where you go.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore | ۳ݳ޳ݳۺݳ޳ݳݳ޳ݳ۳
| ۳ݳ޳ݳۺݳ޳ݳݳ޳ݳ۳
Official .sig, Accept no substitutes. | ۳ݳ޳ݳۺݳ޳ݳݳ޳ݳ۳
| 0 1 7 2 3 / ݳ 3 7 4 9 3 0 ۳
Black Helicopter Repair Services, Ltd.| Official Proof of Purchase
================================================== =========================
Oct 24 '05 #16

P: n/a
I recommend PHPDesigner 2005, and it's free.
http://www.mpsoftware.dk/
On 23 Oct 2005 02:32:48 -0700, ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
First of all, I'm an Asian and I need to input Japanese, Korean and so
on. I've tried many PHP IDEs today, but almost non of them supported
Unicode (UTF-8) file.

I've found that the only Unicode support IDEs are DreamWeaver 8 and
Zend PHP Studio.

DreamWeaver provides full support for Unicode. However, DreamWeaver is
a web editor rather than a PHP IDE. It only supports basic IntelliSense
(or code completion) and doesn't have anything like a class view.

Zend PHP Studio supports Unicode but have many problems. It couldn't
display Korean when I set a Japanese font for the editor, and couldn't
display Japanese when I set a Korean font for the editor. The most
obvious problem is it's too slow. It provides really good support for
coding like class view, debugging and advanced IntelliSense, but it's
too slow for my PC.

I think you're PHP professinals. What do you use for PHP development?
I'd like to hear from you. Thanks.

Oct 24 '05 #17

P: n/a
Oli Filth wrote:
Janwillem Borleffs said the following on 23/10/2005 17:06:
ty*******@gmail.com wrote:
So you don't use an IDE but just a text editor? Well, many computer
gurus did like that in the past, but doesn't it take too much time for
a novice like to remember all the members and functions or look them
up in the manual? I think code completion and class view really helps
people like me.
True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.


Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?


I for one have used a text editor for PHP coding for the better part of
5 years now. Recently, I started using Zend Studio. Sure all the code
completion and such is nice and *might* save you time when you are using
functions that aren't part of your daily routine, but if you have only
ever used IDEs and not memorized function names, syntax and return
cases, where would you be when you notice that something is very bad on
your site and you don't have access to your computer (or any computer)
with the IDE installed? I find that having had to memorize most of the
common functions and syntax has helped me tremendously for speed as well
as being able to handle a crisis if needed.
That's just a massive pain in the arse, and surely must slow you down
considerably, especially when you only find you made a mistake at
run-time... You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it
raw! :)
That's a stretch... it may be a pain for some, but anyone who started
programming C with vi knows what it is like. Assembler isn't even a
comparison to these top-level languages - especially when you're talking
perl and/or php where most of the function names document the code by
themselves...
Admittedly, the benefit of class-views etc. must be somewhat limited for
a dynamically-typed language like PHP. But in strongly-typed languages
like C++, C# or Java that have *massive* APIs, intellisense and
class-views etc. are an absolute god-send.
I find the class views (as in ZDE) to be great! I don't use them all the
time, but when I can look into one of my classes from long ago with a
class view and know exactly what type of value is returned without
searching the code itself... words can't explain.

That said, the decision to use an IDE or text editor for PHP completely
depends on the type of programmer you are. There are pros and cons for
both, and it is up to the developer to decide which route to go. I think
that this is a strength for languages like PHP 9or perl, c, Java, etc.)
- you don't have to have a specific IDE or route to develop your
application...

When's the last time you tried to create a VisualBasic project with a
text editor? How many times did you want to open a VB project in a text
editor to make a simple little change? Maybe not many in this group, but
I for one...
IMO, being a good programmer is not about knowing the fine details of
the language syntax; syntax is just a means to an end.


I wish I could remember who, but there was a quote that goes something
like: "Any monkey can be taught to learn a programming language - it's
just syntax. However, show me one monkey that has been taught
programming logic, and I'll give you a billion dollars."

--
Justin Koivisto, ZCE - ju****@koivi.com
http://koivi.com
Oct 24 '05 #18

P: n/a
Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:
Oli Filth wrote:
Janwillem Borleffs said the following on 23/10/2005 17:06:
True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.


Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?


Sure all the code
completion and such is nice and *might* save you time when you are using
functions that aren't part of your daily routine, but if you have only
ever used IDEs and not memorized function names, syntax and return
cases, where would you be when you notice that something is very bad on
your site and you don't have access to your computer (or any computer)
with the IDE installed? I find that having had to memorize most of the
common functions and syntax has helped me tremendously for speed as well
as being able to handle a crisis if needed.


I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a compiler
(e.g. C), the point is moot...
You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it raw! :)


That's a stretch... it may be a pain for some, but anyone who started
programming C with vi knows what it is like. Assembler isn't even a
comparison to these top-level languages - especially when you're talking
perl and/or php where most of the function names document the code by
themselves...


Yup, I was taking it to the logical extreme, I know! My point was along
the lines of "why forego modern technology that's there to make your
life easier?".
--
Oli
Oct 24 '05 #19

P: n/a
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 24/10/2005 22:15:
Oli Filth wrote:
True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors force
you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.

Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

Of what benefit is there to be using functions that you don't know
intimately?!?


Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve by
using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_create() or
XmlParserCreate() or xmlParserCreate() (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystack, $needle)) is nothing but
an exercise in trivia.

Of course, you can flick to the online manual and find out, but that
must be at least 20 times slower (not to mention disruptive to the
coding "flow") than simply typing the first few letters into an IDE and
then pressing Tab for auto-complete (or the equivalent).

Perhaps it's clearest benefit is the realization that any such library
that has hundreds/thousands of functions is way to complex to be using!


Unfortunately, most APIs are necessarily complex...

You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it raw! :)


Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people still
program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm


Yup, I still do too ;) But only for embedded stuff.
--
Oli
Oct 24 '05 #20

P: n/a

LOL, oh please, the purpose of my post was not to proove that mine is
bigger then yours and vice verser. But it is evident from your
statements, that your views are very limited, and that all you are
trying to do is proove how great you are that you can code PHP in a text
editor. Look, congratulations, you've prooven it.

Furthermore you are not providing any real life examples to your
argument. Why is the IDE slow and limiting? You also completely ignored
my argument on run time debugging, simple walking over your inline
print_r()'s.

I've been in the industry for over 10 years, but that is not the point
and to be honest, every company/university I walked into. Was using
TextPad, but after I showed them how to use Zend non of them went back
to a simple Text editor. It improves productivity by at least 75%.

Yet, you argument states, and I quote:

"Interestingly enough, it was the most experienced programmers with
their text editors who invariably had the highest production and fewest
errors."

That statement alone in my opionion reinforces the fact that you haven't
even taken the time to try to develop something in Zend. Because if you
put 2 identical developers next to each other, one with Zend the other
with TextPad, and give them the same task. The one with Zend is going to
be sipping margaritas in the Bahamas, by the time your *old school* guys
reaches the unit testing phase.

There is a reason that people who founded / were strongly involved in
the development of PHP it self started Zend - the company. There is a
reason that they charge quete a large sum for their software. Because
they know its good, they know that people will earn more money using it
then they will pay for it.

And honestly I hate to get personal, and compare each other's e-penises.
But I'm sure your next reply will lack any indepth thought or industry
insight. It will simply say, I've worked on blah blah, and the person
with TextPad was so much quicker, because the memory load on his machine
was alot lower, due to TextPad using so few resources... blah blah.

Ahh... don't make me laught.
Please don't tell me what I have or have not worked on. I have been on
a couple of very large PHP projects, probably much larger than anything
you've been on (50+ programmers, several hundred K LOC).
No, it's NOT hard to determine what other departments have done. It's
called DOCUMENTATION.
Thats only the start, IDEs (Zend) in this case provide me with several
other features:

1) Debugger, this is a must, being able to view objects / array /
variables run time, cuts down development time by at least 50%
(probably more). Instead of having to print_r() every second line to
find out whats going on.

2) Integratted PHPDoc, those of you who came out with guns blazing
saying TextPad is all I need ra.. ra.. ra.. May not have the use for
it, but my team and I certainly do.

Integrated CVS, FTP, SFTP, Database browser, Table Browser (for most
db's including oracle 10g), Code analyser, profiler, watches,
breakpoints, projects, auto indentatio.

Thats just a few of the features that come to mind, yes Zend support
is really terrible... I mean really bad. But as far as large scale PHP
development goes you can't go past it. Yes, I understand that people
strugle with change, but you are prooving nothing to me saying that
you can do it all with TextPad. I used to be in the same shoes, sure
you can do it with TextPad, its only going to take you alot more time.


Sure, Zend has some advantages. Some or the people on the projects used
it. Others didn't.

I don't object to change. I tried Zend. The debugger is great. But
the IDE was too slow and limiting.

I'm not saying Zend or other IDE's are bad. They aren't. But what
works for one person does not work for every person. I work much faster
with a text editor than when using Zend. And most of our most
experienced programmers found the same. The newer programmers were more
likely to use Zend or some other IDE.

Interestingly enough, it was the most experienced programmers with their
text editors who invariably had the highest production and fewest errors.

Oct 25 '05 #21

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:

LOL, oh please, the purpose of my post was not to proove that mine is
bigger then yours and vice verser. But it is evident from your
statements, that your views are very limited, and that all you are
trying to do is proove how great you are that you can code PHP in a text
editor. Look, congratulations, you've prooven it.

This is the farthest from the truth I've ever heard. I was responding
to your statement:

"And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything
more then textpad, obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP
project...."

This statement is completely asinine. You have NO idea what projects I
or most other people on this newsgroup have worked on.
Furthermore you are not providing any real life examples to your
argument. Why is the IDE slow and limiting? You also completely ignored
my argument on run time debugging, simple walking over your inline
print_r()'s.

No, I don't have to. It works for me.

However - I'm typically thinking several characters or words ahead of
what I'm writing. And auto-completion, popup assists, etc. are a huge
distraction to me. Amongst other things.

Debugging is nice, I do admit. But I don't need to WRITE my code in an
IDE to be able to DEBUG it. I typically get along fine with echo,
print_r, etc. But I know how to use a debugger when I need it.
I've been in the industry for over 10 years, but that is not the point
and to be honest, every company/university I walked into. Was using
TextPad, but after I showed them how to use Zend non of them went back
to a simple Text editor. It improves productivity by at least 75%.

Damn - another newcomer. I've got almost 30 years of seniority on you.

And yes, it does improve productivity of programmers who don't know what
they're doing, don't understand the language and/or don't want to
remember the functions. I find it quite easy to remember function names
and parms - and when I do need to look something up, the online help is
a click away.

Yet, you argument states, and I quote:

"Interestingly enough, it was the most experienced programmers with
their text editors who invariably had the highest production and fewest
errors."

That statement alone in my opionion reinforces the fact that you haven't
even taken the time to try to develop something in Zend. Because if you
put 2 identical developers next to each other, one with Zend the other
with TextPad, and give them the same task. The one with Zend is going to
be sipping margaritas in the Bahamas, by the time your *old school* guys
reaches the unit testing phase.

To repeat - I HAVE used Zend and other IDE's. And I'll take you on ANY
DAY. You don't have a leg to stand on with your limited experience.

There is a reason that people who founded / were strongly involved in
the development of PHP it self started Zend - the company. There is a
reason that they charge quete a large sum for their software. Because
they know its good, they know that people will earn more money using it
then they will pay for it.

Yep, it's good for the newbie and those who don't want to bother to
learn the language, functions, etc.
And honestly I hate to get personal, and compare each other's e-penises.
But I'm sure your next reply will lack any indepth thought or industry
insight. It will simply say, I've worked on blah blah, and the person
with TextPad was so much quicker, because the memory load on his machine
was alot lower, due to TextPad using so few resources... blah blah.

Yep, just like any newbie. Think they know everything.

My point is - NO IDE IS RIGHT FOR EVERYONE! You're trying to make EVERY
PROGRAMMER fit into the same mold. WE DON'T!
Ahh... don't make me laught.


Why not? Your post was the biggest laugh I had all day.

And don't top post.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
Oct 25 '05 #22

P: n/a
> When you have multiple people if not teams working on the
same project, its a bloody pain in the ass to have to look
up what some tool, in some other department called a fanction
and what parameters it takes.


One option is to use the ctags utility to create a tags database,
allowing searches like this to be done in a matter of seconds and
many text editors have the ability to search tag files.

A second option would be to integrate the doxygen documentation
utility into some sort of nightly build process. This would
create for you a fully indexable list of the functions and
variables that make up your project.

This list could be navigated using nothing but a standard web
browser, but you could also convert the HTML into something
like a HtmlHelp file. That then makes it possible to search
you index from within your favourite text editors.

Zeus integrates to both of these tools and the searching is
hardly painful. I would suggest that in some cases it might
even be faster than your IDE ;)

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows IDE
http://www.zeusedit.com

Oct 25 '05 #23

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:

Oh, and one other thing. I've been training programmers longer than
you've been a programmer. My clients have included a fair percentage of
the Fortune 500 companies, as well as smaller companies.

And I repeat - IDE'S ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE!

I've seen vi programmers outperform ANYTHING someone using TextPad or
ANY other Windows programs - including IDE's - does. And no, I'm not
that good. But these guys (and gals) are.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
Oct 25 '05 #24

P: n/a
Oli Filth wrote:
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 24/10/2005 22:15:
Oli Filth wrote:
True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors
force you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.

Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?
Of what benefit is there to be using functions that you don't know
intimately?!?


Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve
by using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_create() or
XmlParserCreate() or xmlParserCreate() (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystack, $needle)) is nothing
but an exercise in trivia.


No, to me it's a sign that you don't know the function well enough...
Of course, you can flick to the online manual and find out, but that
must be at least 20 times slower (not to mention disruptive to the
coding "flow") than simply typing the first few letters into an IDE
and then pressing Tab for auto-complete (or the equivalent).


Perhaps - but it ain't worth losing all of the functionality and
flexibility of XEmacs - at least not to me...
Perhaps it's clearest benefit is the realization that any such
library that has hundreds/thousands of functions is way to complex to
be using!


Unfortunately, most APIs are necessarily complex...


I would agree! Except, of course, for the usage of the word
"necessarily". For that word I would substitute the word "unnecessarily".
You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it raw! :)

Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people
still program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm


Yup, I still do too ;) But only for embedded stuff.


Well if you read the page you would see he write *all* of his
applications in assembly...

Oct 25 '05 #25

P: n/a
Oli Filth wrote:
Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:
Oli Filth wrote:
Janwillem Borleffs said the following on 23/10/2005 17:06:

True, but OTOH, code completion makes people lazy. Text editors
force you to remember functions, which I think is a benefit.

Are you serious?? ;)

Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?


Sure all the code completion and such is nice and *might* save you
time when you are using functions that aren't part of your daily
routine, but if you have only ever used IDEs and not memorized
function names, syntax and return cases, where would you be when you
notice that something is very bad on your site and you don't have
access to your computer (or any computer) with the IDE installed? I
find that having had to memorize most of the common functions and
syntax has helped me tremendously for speed as well as being able to
handle a crisis if needed.


I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a
compiler (e.g. C), the point is moot...


Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.
You might as well be programming in assembler if you like it raw! :)


That's a stretch... it may be a pain for some, but anyone who started
programming C with vi knows what it is like. Assembler isn't even a
comparison to these top-level languages - especially when you're
talking perl and/or php where most of the function names document the
code by themselves...


Yup, I was taking it to the logical extreme, I know! My point was
along the lines of "why forego modern technology that's there to make
your life easier?".


The same reason why teenagers always use calculators and have been
losing the ability to compute problems, do arithmetic without a
calculator and to, by extension, think logically. Just because there's a
modern do hickey for something doesn't mean that you can nor should give
up understanding of what's going on under the hood and get your hands
dirty every now and then. And as is often the case, the true
professionals, the ones who are often better or the best, do things the
old fashioned way. Why is that? And who do you want to be?
Oct 25 '05 #26

P: n/a
true what they say about old dogs not being able to learn new tricks, I
see you have gottn quete worked up over ths issue, ok... IDEs are not
for everyone. Keep training people to use TextPad and vi.

Infact you can do anything you like, talking to you is like talking to a
brick wall, an old brick wall. To be honest I got better things to do.

Infact this is exactly the same as when I asked about shared memory
allocation I think you were also the first fag to jump in and proove
that you know everything about anything. And that your 50 years
experience gives you an edge some how. IT&T is moving way to quick for
someone to go and claim just because they written code in assembler or
something else prehistoric that they know better.

And for your argument that you are training people for so many years, I
don't give a flying shit who you train. Not all my lecture's were good.
And perhaps you are quete average as well. After all marketing does have
a large roll in *selling* education.

So I'll repeat, I've worked in the commerce sector, now I am in
education my self. And all the people over the 10 years who I showed
Zend. And statisticly I'm sure that some of those programmers would have
been good. Have all had a positive response about Zend. And I'm sure are
using it to this day.

Anyway, my point is... if you are programming a PHP - with OO structure,
obstraction layers. Zend is the way to go. That is all, you can argue
until you are blue in the face that is not, I've used both approaches,
and I can see the plain difference in department now. Right this second.
Not 10-20 years ago. But Now.

Jerry Stuckle wrote:
Ramon wrote:

Oh, and one other thing. I've been training programmers longer than
you've been a programmer. My clients have included a fair percentage of
the Fortune 500 companies, as well as smaller companies.

And I repeat - IDE'S ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE!

I've seen vi programmers outperform ANYTHING someone using TextPad or
ANY other Windows programs - including IDE's - does. And no, I'm not
that good. But these guys (and gals) are.

Oct 25 '05 #27

P: n/a
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:23:
Oli Filth wrote:
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 24/10/2005 22:15:
Oli Filth wrote:
Where's the benefit in having to remember the exact syntax for
hundreds/thousands of functions?

Of what benefit is there to be using functions that you don't know
intimately?!?


Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve
by using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_create() or
XmlParserCreate() or xmlParserCreate() (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystack, $needle)) is nothing
but an exercise in trivia.


No, to me it's a sign that you don't know the function well enough...


I repeat my original point - where's the benefit in learning the precise
syntax for thousands of functions, especially custom functions that may
not be documented, or unfamiliar libraries?

It doesn't make one a better programmer (in the sense of understanding
how to design and construct functional, elegant programs and code), and
is error-prone (in the sense that you have to wait until run-time to
spot your mistakes that would otherwise have been picked up by syntax
highlighting, or wouldn't have been there in the first place due to
autocompletion).

Just because, for a trivial example, I can't remember whether it's
imagejpeg($source, $filename, $quality) or imagejpeg($filename,
$quality, $source) has no bearing on my understanding of what that
function does or why I want to use it...
Don't get me wrong though, if someone finds writing code easier in
TextPad (or whatever) easier, then I'm not going to dispute that. I just
find it a little tricky to understand.

Unfortunately, most APIs are necessarily complex...


I would agree! Except, of course, for the usage of the word
"necessarily". For that word I would substitute the word "unnecessarily".


Depends. Larger APIs ultimately afford you greater flexibility. You
probably couldn't shrink, for example, the Windows or Java APIs without
losing functionality and/or flexibility.

Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people
still program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm


Yup, I still do too ;) But only for embedded stuff.


Well if you read the page you would see he write *all* of his
applications in assembly...


Yeah, I noticed that. IMO, that's a pointless waste of time, unless he's
doing it purely for the academic exercise. :)

--
Oli
Oct 25 '05 #28

P: n/a
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:29:
Oli Filth wrote:
Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:
Sure all the code completion and such is nice and *might* save you
time when you are using functions that aren't part of your daily
routine, but if you have only ever used IDEs and not memorized
function names, syntax and return cases, where would you be when you
notice that something is very bad on your site and you don't have
access to your computer (or any computer) with the IDE installed?

I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a
compiler (e.g. C), the point is moot...

Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.


I was refuting the idea that you could fix code errors on any PC without
"specialist" tools. That only applies for script-based languages, and
therefore isn't a general rule. Wasn't very clear originally, I admit!

My point was
along the lines of "why forego modern technology that's there to make
your life easier?".


The same reason why teenagers always use calculators and have been
losing the ability to compute problems, do arithmetic without a
calculator and to, by extension, think logically. Just because there's a
modern do hickey for something doesn't mean that you can nor should give
up understanding of what's going on under the hood and get your hands
dirty every now and then.


I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator example. By
using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using an IDE to remind
you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to construct a program.

In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
(FrontPage excepted).

Anyway, even intelligent professional mathematicians wouldn't forego a
calculator if they were asked to calculate something like
123.4528*log(3.573). They'd use the calculator because it makes their
life easier and gets the job done; that doesn't imply that they don't
understand multiplication or logarithms.


--
Oli
Oct 25 '05 #29

P: n/a
Exactly correct. I've got nothing to proove, I just want to produce
hight quality code, quickly. I still haven't seen one cohisive argument
against, other then: people can do it quicker in a text editor.

Oli Filth wrote:
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:29:
Oli Filth wrote:
Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:

Sure all the code completion and such is nice and *might* save you
time when you are using functions that aren't part of your daily
routine, but if you have only ever used IDEs and not memorized
function names, syntax and return cases, where would you be when you
notice that something is very bad on your site and you don't have
access to your computer (or any computer) with the IDE installed?

I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a
compiler (e.g. C), the point is moot...


Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.

I was refuting the idea that you could fix code errors on any PC without
"specialist" tools. That only applies for script-based languages, and
therefore isn't a general rule. Wasn't very clear originally, I admit!

My point was along the lines of "why forego modern technology that's
there to make your life easier?".

The same reason why teenagers always use calculators and have been
losing the ability to compute problems, do arithmetic without a
calculator and to, by extension, think logically. Just because there's
a modern do hickey for something doesn't mean that you can nor should
give up understanding of what's going on under the hood and get your
hands dirty every now and then.

I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator example. By
using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using an IDE to remind
you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to construct a program.

In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
(FrontPage excepted).

Anyway, even intelligent professional mathematicians wouldn't forego a
calculator if they were asked to calculate something like
123.4528*log(3.573). They'd use the calculator because it makes their
life easier and gets the job done; that doesn't imply that they don't
understand multiplication or logarithms.

Oct 25 '05 #30

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
true what they say about old dogs not being able to learn new tricks, I
see you have gottn quete worked up over ths issue, ok... IDEs are not
for everyone. Keep training people to use TextPad and vi.

First of all, I learn a lot of "new tricks". As an instructor, I have
to know MORE than the students. And in the past few years I've learned
PHP, Javascript and Java. This is on top of my two main languages, C
and C++.

Second, it's not your position to tell me what my emotions are, and I
would appreciate it if you would refrain from doing to. I am not worked
up over this.

And, BTW, it has been scientifically proven you *can* teach an old dog
new tricks. They learn quite well.
Infact you can do anything you like, talking to you is like talking to a
brick wall, an old brick wall. To be honest I got better things to do.

Not in the least.

Your statement is that any programmer who doesn't use an IDE such as
ZEND isn't as productive as one who does.

My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make the
mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?
Infact this is exactly the same as when I asked about shared memory
allocation I think you were also the first fag to jump in and proove
that you know everything about anything. And that your 50 years
experience gives you an edge some how. IT&T is moving way to quick for
someone to go and claim just because they written code in assembler or
something else prehistoric that they know better.

Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new guy
who thinks he's an "expert".

And for your argument that you are training people for so many years, I
don't give a flying shit who you train. Not all my lecture's were good.
And perhaps you are quete average as well. After all marketing does have
a large roll in *selling* education.

And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different than
in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of a
semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from the
ground up.

Every course has critiques of both the course material and the trainer.
And if I don't do a good job, they find someone else for the next course.

But I keep getting rehired.
So I'll repeat, I've worked in the commerce sector, now I am in
education my self. And all the people over the 10 years who I showed
Zend. And statisticly I'm sure that some of those programmers would have
been good. Have all had a positive response about Zend. And I'm sure are
using it to this day.

Gee, you work for a community college? Or are you one of those "not so
good" lecturers?
Anyway, my point is... if you are programming a PHP - with OO structure,
obstraction layers. Zend is the way to go. That is all, you can argue
until you are blue in the face that is not, I've used both approaches,
and I can see the plain difference in department now. Right this second.
Not 10-20 years ago. But Now.


It is ONE way to go. Not the ONLY WAY.

And btw - I really don't think much of anyone who can't be bothered to
follow newsgroup standards. One of the standards for this newsgoup does
NOT include top posting.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
Oct 25 '05 #31

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
true what they say about old dogs not being able to learn new tricks,
I see you have gottn quete worked up over ths issue, ok... IDEs are
not for everyone. Keep training people to use TextPad and vi.
An "old dog" doesn't need new tricks when the old tricks work just fine.
Just because something is new does not mean that it's better.
Infact you can do anything you like, talking to you is like talking to
a brick wall, an old brick wall. To be honest I got better things to do.
I see you had time to waste here responding...
Infact this is exactly the same as when I asked about shared memory
allocation I think you were also the first fag to jump in and proove
that you know everything about anything. And that your 50 years
experience gives you an edge some how. IT&T is moving way to quick for
someone to go and claim just because they written code in assembler or
something else prehistoric that they know better.
At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!
And for your argument that you are training people for so many years,
I don't give a flying shit who you train. Not all my lecture's were
good. And perhaps you are quete average as well. After all marketing
does have a large roll in *selling* education.
But the teachers are not usually the ones selling education - it's the
marketers that do that...
So I'll repeat, I've worked in the commerce sector, now I am in
education my self. And all the people over the 10 years who I showed
Zend. And statisticly I'm sure that some of those programmers would
have been good. Have all had a positive response about Zend. And I'm
sure are using it to this day.
A vast majority of people eat at McDonalds. That doesn't mean that it's
good food...
Anyway, my point is... if you are programming a PHP - with OO
structure, obstraction layers. Zend is the way to go. That is all, you
can argue until you are blue in the face that is not, I've used both
approaches, and I can see the plain difference in department now.
Right this second. Not 10-20 years ago. But Now.


Does nothing to negate the fact that IDEs may be fine for some people,
but not everybody...
Oct 25 '05 #32

P: n/a
And in the past few years I've learned PHP

Key sentence I believe.

Second, it's not your position to tell me what my emotions are, and I
would appreciate it if you would refrain from doing to. I am not worked
up over this.
Wish granted.

And, BTW, it has been scientifically proven you *can* teach an old dog
new tricks. They learn quite well.
What with a 5 min attention span? Sure repetition is they key, I'll try
to repeat my self more often.
Not in the least.

Your statement is that any programmer who doesn't use an IDE such as
ZEND isn't as productive as one who does.
On large scale projects *YES*.
My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.
Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.
Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make the
mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?
I'm not trying to fit anyone into anything, it is my personal opinion to
which I am entitled.

Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new guy
who thinks he's an "expert".
There are quete a few people who are of the same opinion in this thread
alone. They are all *new guys*.
And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different than
in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of a
semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from the
ground up.
Good, I am glad that we have come to an understanding at least on this.
If you don't give a shit, don't correct me or insult me, and go hide in
the hole you crawled out of. The OP asked for an opionion, which I gave
who gave you the write to critises that? Fucking armchair bandit.
Every course has critiques of both the course material and the trainer.
And if I don't do a good job, they find someone else for the next course.
You seem to ahve alot of time on your hands atm, not many contracts
going your way. BL.
Gee, you work for a community college? Or are you one of those "not so
good" lecturers?
No, actually Information Technology Services for a major reasearch based
University. 2 degrees, 1 in comp. science (australia), and 1 in Moscow's
MGU also comp. science, not that your arrogence would allow you to know
what that is.

It is ONE way to go. Not the ONLY WAY.


CBF repeating again, even though I do realise taht repetition is
paramount here. As old dogs do... learn... well...
And btw - I really don't think much of anyone who can't be bothered to

follow newsgroup standards. One of the standards for this newsgoup does
NOT include top posting.


That is just sad. You don't think much of me? :) My confidence is shattered.
Oct 25 '05 #33

P: n/a
Oli Filth wrote:
Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve
by using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_create() or
XmlParserCreate() or xmlParserCreate() (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystack, $needle)) is nothing
but an exercise in trivia.
No, to me it's a sign that you don't know the function well enough...


I repeat my original point - where's the benefit in learning the
precise syntax for thousands of functions, especially custom functions
that may not be documented, or unfamiliar libraries?


And I will repeat mine: What good is it *not *to be familar with the
function call in question?

And you shouldn't have thousands of functions! If you got that much then
you should break things into smaller , more manageable pieces.
It doesn't make one a better programmer (in the sense of understanding
how to design and construct functional, elegant programs and code),
Sure it does.
and is error-prone (in the sense that you have to wait until run-time
to spot your mistakes that would otherwise have been picked up by
syntax highlighting, or wouldn't have been there in the first place
due to autocompletion).
Who says that XEmacs, for example, doesn't do syntax highlighting?!?

And no you don't *have* to wait until run-time! You could always look it
up if you are unsure about it *before* you run it!
Just because, for a trivial example, I can't remember whether it's
imagejpeg($source, $filename, $quality) or imagejpeg($filename,
$quality, $source) has no bearing on my understanding of what that
function does or why I want to use it...
Sorry you can't remember the functions that you use.
Don't get me wrong though, if someone finds writing code easier in
TextPad (or whatever) easier, then I'm not going to dispute that. I
just find it a little tricky to understand.


That's cause you're thinking of TextPad. I've never used TextPad...

I find it much better to use a good editor, a good terminal emulator, a
good language (or two) with a good debugger and I have specific tools
for each task. Each are good at what they do and I don't have to bother
loading some monolithic application that tries to be the jack of all
trades while mastering none of them... That is the Unix philosophy and
it has been for decades - and for good reason!
Unfortunately, most APIs are necessarily complex...


I would agree! Except, of course, for the usage of the word
"necessarily". For that word I would substitute the word
"unnecessarily".


Depends. Larger APIs ultimately afford you greater flexibility. You
probably couldn't shrink, for example, the Windows or Java APIs
without losing functionality and/or flexibility.


How many applications do you write that actually use more than a handful
of those APIs? And the Windows and Java APIs are not great examples of
well engineered and well thought out APIs, IMHO...
Assembler would be quicker! Running that is. And yes some people
still program in assembler. http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm

Yup, I still do too ;) But only for embedded stuff.


Well if you read the page you would see he write *all* of his
applications in assembly...


Yeah, I noticed that. IMO, that's a pointless waste of time, unless
he's doing it purely for the academic exercise. :)


You would argue that writing things efficiently is a pointless waste of
time. That speaks more about you than it does about me. Granted, I don't
write tight assembly code for my apps but I sure know enough to
appreciate somebody who does instead of calling his work pointless!
Oct 25 '05 #34

P: n/a
> At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!

haha, well sure, you got me there, english isnt my first language, but I
can speak & write 4 languages fluently, how many can you? ;)
Oct 25 '05 #35

P: n/a
Oli Filth wrote:
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:29:
Oli Filth wrote:
Justin Koivisto said the following on 24/10/2005 22:54:

Sure all the code completion and such is nice and *might* save you
time when you are using functions that aren't part of your daily
routine, but if you have only ever used IDEs and not memorized
function names, syntax and return cases, where would you be when
you notice that something is very bad on your site and you don't
have access to your computer (or any computer) with the IDE installed?

I see your point, but that only applies for interpreted/script-based
languages like PHP, VBScript, etc. For anything that requires a
compiler (e.g. C), the point is moot...
Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.


I was refuting the idea that you could fix code errors on any PC
without "specialist" tools. That only applies for script-based
languages, and therefore isn't a general rule. Wasn't very clear
originally, I admit!


Sorry, still doesn't compute. What stops one from logging into a system
and tweaking and recompiling say a C program? Ah are you locked into MS
VisualStudio? Well lookee here! Another monolithic IDE application!
Which, of course, points to another reason why IDEs are indeed bad. It
seems you are admitting that without them you cannot work!

On the contrary in the, ahem, old way of doing things you simply use a
plain text editor to edit a file or a makefile, rebuild the app and your
on your way! Even from a telnet session from across the world. No need
for an IDE. No dependence on the IDE. Job completed! Even in C or some
other 3rd generation language (speaking of old school).

You see it starts off with "Gee this is cool because it colors the
syntax. And look here it bring up the relevant documentation! And auto
completes. Cool, cool, cool. And I can drag and drop my files into this
project thingy and not have to think about make files" then progresses
to the point where, without the monolithic IDE application and your
"environment" you effectively can't work - and that's bad!
My point was along the lines of "why forego modern technology that's
there to make your life easier?".


The same reason why teenagers always use calculators and have been
losing the ability to compute problems, do arithmetic without a
calculator and to, by extension, think logically. Just because
there's a modern do hickey for something doesn't mean that you can
nor should give up understanding of what's going on under the hood
and get your hands dirty every now and then.


I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator example.
By using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using an IDE to remind
you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to construct a program.


I beg to differ. Often IDEs implement concepts of projects and other
things that are not only designed to work from the IDE, but can't work
at all unless you are in the IDE. You loose the concept of how to
construct the program outside of the context of the IDE itself. In fact,
often you can't do it at all. And I believe they also dumb down the
concept of knowing how to program too, just like they do for calculators
and math...
In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
(FrontPage excepted).
I disagree. Take a sizable application that you use your IDE for and
take it out of the IDE. I bet you'll be surprised how it's not an easy
task to do...
Anyway, even intelligent professional mathematicians wouldn't forego a
calculator if they were asked to calculate something like
123.4528*log(3.573). They'd use the calculator because it makes their
life easier and gets the job done; that doesn't imply that they don't
understand multiplication or logarithms.


Yes, but they understand the concept behind the math involved. And, if
push came to shove, they could calculate that without the calculator...
Oct 25 '05 #36

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:

Your statement is that any programmer who doesn't use an IDE such as
ZEND isn't as productive as one who does.

On large scale projects *YES*.


That was not your statement. Let me quote you (again): "And anyone that
stated in this thread that they don't need anything more then textpad,
obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project. "

You did NOT say you must use one on a large scale project. You said
"ANY PROGRAMMER"...
My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.


Trying to change the subject again? But yes, there are people out there
who do.
Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make the
mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?

I'm not trying to fit anyone into anything, it is my personal opinion to
which I am entitled.


Yes, and you're saying everyone should use an IDE.
Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new guy
who thinks he's an "expert".

There are quete a few people who are of the same opinion in this thread
alone. They are all *new guys*.


And you're the one who thinks he's an expert.
And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different
than in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of
a semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from
the ground up.

Good, I am glad that we have come to an understanding at least on this.
If you don't give a shit, don't correct me or insult me, and go hide in
the hole you crawled out of. The OP asked for an opionion, which I gave
who gave you the write to critises that? Fucking armchair bandit.


I said I don't give a shit what *YOU* think. I do care when you try to
snow other programmers with your BS.
Every course has critiques of both the course material and the
trainer. And if I don't do a good job, they find someone else for the
next course.

You seem to ahve alot of time on your hands atm, not many contracts
going your way. BL.


Actually, I have more work than I want. I've had to subcontract some of
it out and/or turn some work down. But it still leaves me with
sufficient time to be on usenet. I'm doing it from my laptop in bed
right now, for instance.
Gee, you work for a community college? Or are you one of those "not
so good" lecturers?

No, actually Information Technology Services for a major reasearch based
University. 2 degrees, 1 in comp. science (australia), and 1 in Moscow's
MGU also comp. science, not that your arrogence would allow you to know
what that is.


Ah, "Education". And yes, I do know what it is. Let me clue you -
Universities are nothing like the real world!
It is ONE way to go. Not the ONLY WAY.

CBF repeating again, even though I do realise taht repetition is
paramount here. As old dogs do... learn... well...


And maybe you will learn one day.
> And btw - I really don't think much of anyone who can't be bothered

to follow newsgroup standards. One of the standards for this newsgoup
does NOT include top posting.

That is just sad. You don't think much of me? :) My confidence is
shattered.


At least you didn't top post. You get one point for that.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
js*******@attglobal.net
==================
Oct 25 '05 #37

P: n/a
> That was not your statement. Let me quote you (again): "And anyone that
stated in this thread that they don't need anything more then textpad,
obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project. " You did NOT say you must use one on a large scale project. You said
"ANY PROGRAMMER"...
Sorry let me rephrase if you are unable to read between the lines. I
mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale PHP
project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that there
will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by utilizing a
IDE is disillusioned.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.


Trying to change the subject again? But yes, there are people out there
who do.


See what I mean. Yondu just took a stand, a you are going to stand by it
no matter what :) I guess it deserves some respect.

Yes, and you're saying everyone should use an IDE.
On a large PHP project yes, would make their life, and everyone elses
life alot easier. They just need to see the light. Thing is that I've
had this argument countless times, with countless individuals, both old
and young, and they all defend what is theirs :) A routine.
Ah, "Education". And yes, I do know what it is. Let me clue you -
Universities are nothing like the real world!
What gave you the idea that I worked all my life in a university. I've
worked for many company & personal clients of my own. I've developed
statistical marketing solutions, that would blow you away. That are used
to this day by major clothing apparell chains world wide. I'm not
talking 2 or 3 stores, I'm talking hundreds and hundreds nation wide.
All of these where as *real world* as it gets. I've only gotten into the
"education* industry recently, further more I do not teach programming,
nor have I held an educational position in my career.
And maybe you will learn one day.
I am very willing to learn, and I have mastered the art of texteditor &
VI programming a long time ago. And frankly on a large project
interfacing a dozen other large systems, it would be suicide to tred
that path. Well not really suicide, but project management would become
unworkable.
At least you didn't top post. You get one point for that.

Thanks, thanks for that. I am glad I was able to simplify your life. -
That sounds familiar ;)
Oct 25 '05 #38

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
At least he can spell... ;-)

And he doesn't need to "proove" it!


haha, well sure, you got me there, english isnt my first language, but
I can speak & write 4 languages fluently, how many can you? ;)


Are you counting computer languages! ;-)

Why does it matter if one can speak multiple languages anyway! I speak
'merican! That's all that matters! :-P
--
If knees were backwards, what would chairs look like?
Oct 25 '05 #39

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
That was not your statement. Let me quote you (again): "And anyone
that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more then
textpad, obviously have not worked on a large scale PHP project. "
You did NOT say you must use one on a large scale project. You said
"ANY PROGRAMMER"...


Sorry let me rephrase if you are unable to read between the lines.


Instead of the rephrasing or reading between the lines why not resort to
clearly expressing yourself. No wonder you need a sophisticated IDE to
fill in the blanks.
I mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale
PHP project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that
there will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.
In your humble opinion. You do understand what the word opinion is don't
you. Because you have offered no empirical evidence for this claim...
Yes, and you're saying everyone should use an IDE.


On a large PHP project yes, would make their life, and everyone elses
life alot easier.


I fail to see how my life would get easier if I have to spend lots of
time learning how somebody's IDE is supposed to work.
They just need to see the light.
Sounds religious! Ick!
Thing is that I've had this argument countless times, with countless
individuals, both old and young, and they all defend what is theirs :)
A routine.


That should tell you something. Like perhaps maybe you're not right. Or,
gentler, that others hold differing opinions.

I use Jinzora (http://jinzora.org) on my web site. It's a fairly complex
PHP application. It's also done by two people. I doubt that they use an
IDE (I will ask...).
--
As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in public schools.
Oct 25 '05 #40

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.

Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.


Personally I wouldn't touch .NET with a 10 foot pole! It's, from what I
hear, the ultimate in unnecessary complication.

Listen, while function completion, syntax highlighting and the like are
cool, I spend far more of my time doing basic editing than just function
calls or function call headers. Editing of characters, lines, code - my
code, is what is done more often. While an IDE might gain me some
convenience in the areas of function call completion it's not where I
spend the majority of my time. Having to sit and learn all the
functionality, and worse yet, lose of functionality, in plain text
editing would be a major productivity hit to me.

Additionally, as a scripter and system admin, I deal in a plethora of
languages, including, but not limited to, PHP, Perl, Bash, Awk, HTML,
sed, Visual Basic (Yes unfortunately), etc. XEmacs handles all of them
with ease and similarity, whereas an IDE geared toward PHP probably
wouldn't handle Bash very easily. And having, installing, configuring,
learning and keeping up to day 5 different IDEs for 5 different
scripting languages was never something I've aspired to do...
Let's see - you try to fit everyone into one mold. I try and make
the mold to fit each individual. Who's a brick wall?


I'm not trying to fit anyone into anything, it is my personal opinion
to which I am entitled.


You are as entitled to your opinion as we are to ours...
Could be. I am quite willing to correct misstatements by some new
guy who thinks he's an "expert".


There are quete a few people who are of the same opinion in this
thread alone. They are all *new guys*.


Again, McDonalds food is popular - it ain't, however, good food...
And I don't give a flying shit what you think.

Let me clue you - training in the corporate world is MUCH different
than in a university. For instance - I have to fit the equivalent of
a semester into one week. That means teaching C, C++, or Java from
the ground up.


Good, I am glad that we have come to an understanding at least on
this. If you don't give a shit, don't correct me or insult me, and go
hide in the hole you crawled out of. The OP asked for an opionion,
which I gave who gave you the write to critises that? Fucking armchair
bandit.


As you say, is he not also entitled to his opinion? (As am I?)
--
I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control!
Oct 25 '05 #41

P: n/a
> Instead of the rephrasing or reading between the lines why not resort to
clearly expressing yourself. No wonder you need a sophisticated IDE to
fill in the blanks.
I expressed my self very clearly the first time round, some people just
need a little more explanation and/or persuasion.
I mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale
PHP project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that
there will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.

In your humble opinion. You do understand what the word opinion is don't
you. Because you have offered no empirical evidence for this claim...


Well, yes it is, and I have provided evidence, have a browse through
some earlier posts.

I fail to see how my life would get easier if I have to spend lots of
time learning how somebody's IDE is supposed to work.
That statement alone sums up your attitude, and attitudes of people like
you. Somebodies IDE... So why did you learn and are using someone's OS?
At least if you trying to argue, make a frail attempt to have one, an
argument that is. The above is just pathetic.
They just need to see the light.

Sounds religious! Ick!

O.. k.. what are you 12?
Thing is that I've had this argument countless times, with countless
individuals, both old and young, and they all defend what is theirs :)
A routine.

That should tell you something. Like perhaps maybe you're not right. Or,
gentler, that others hold differing opinions.


No it tells me one thing, which I've allways known to be true, people
are stubborn and are afraid of change.
I use Jinzora (http://jinzora.org) on my web site. It's a fairly complex
PHP application. It's also done by two people. I doubt that they use an
IDE (I will ask...).


Sure, why don't you ask them what PHP framework they used, what year
they developed it in? How many years it took em? What would make their
life easier? And then see if a IDE feature fits that description, and
I'm sure you will find your answer.

Comeon man at least Jerry had some semi valid arguments based on the
real world, you are talking completely out of your ass. I'm not even
going to start on the personal attacks you made on my spelling and
grammar. Considering with the internet, global villege etc. You would
think people can see past these differences. Like not being able to
speak or write flawlessly. But hey, from the above it is evident you are
not worth the chair you are sitting on.

So, I'll refrain from correspondance in your direction, and I'd like to
ask you that you refrain from any in mine. And let my argument with
Jerry continue without your petty bullshit.

That is all. Thanks.
Oct 25 '05 #42

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
Instead of the rephrasing or reading between the lines why not resort
to clearly expressing yourself. No wonder you need a sophisticated
IDE to fill in the blanks.
I expressed my self very clearly the first time round, some people
just need a little more explanation and/or persuasion.


Demonstrably false. As has been quoted you said "all programmers" yet
later you clarify that to mean something else. You are not being clear
in your expression if you have to change "all programmers" to something
else. It is a miscommunication on your part, plain and simple.
I mean in theory you could do anything with notepad, it is not very
effective on a large scale project. Any yes... PHP programmer, that
claims that a simple text editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale
PHP project, using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that
there will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.


In your humble opinion. You do understand what the word opinion is
don't you. Because you have offered no empirical evidence for this
claim...


Well, yes it is, and I have provided evidence, have a browse through
some earlier posts.


I've been reading the thread. You've offered your opinion. You have not
presented any qualitative data.
I fail to see how my life would get easier if I have to spend lots of
time learning how somebody's IDE is supposed to work.


That statement alone sums up your attitude, and attitudes of people
like you. Somebodies IDE...


No it sums up reality! Or are you claiming it's somehow not reality that
there would be a learning curve to adjust to some new IDE?
So why did you learn and are using someone's OS?
That sir is irrelevant! I've already learned somebody's OS (Actually
I've learned quite a few). And, more to the point, I've spent the time
to learn a particular editor which suits me quite well. As such, if you
want to sell your idea, and indeed you are selling your idea of using
yet another tool that I will have to learn, you need to provide
justification. Your justification is that it helps you with some things.
My contentions are 1) it ain't that much of a help and 2) it requires
more effort than I deem worthwhile to learn how to do old things a new
way with very little potential that there will be much gain in
productivity of every day things that I do way more than just complete
function calls. In fact I know that I'll lose lots of functionality that
my current editor provides that this new IDE just will not provide.
At least if you trying to argue, make a frail attempt to have one, an
argument that is. The above is just pathetic.
It's reality. Face it instead of run away from it by trying to dismiss
it. People will not change their habits unless they perceive an
advantage in doing so. You've presented your weak case as to why you
think it's beneficial. Are you really that surprised that some may
disagree with your opinion?
They just need to see the light.


Sounds religious! Ick!


O.. k.. what are you 12?


Nope. I'm 45. But that's funny because that's exactly what I think when
I talk to religious types. It's the same old bullshit "I know better
than you. You will eventually see the light". As an atheist I say "Yeah
I saw that light a long time ago and perhaps at some time in the future
you'll see the light I'm now seeing". Same is true for IDEs. Same
religious like argument...
Thing is that I've had this argument countless times, with countless
individuals, both old and young, and they all defend what is theirs
:) A routine.


That should tell you something. Like perhaps maybe you're not right.
Or, gentler, that others hold differing opinions.


No it tells me one thing, which I've allways known to be true, people
are stubborn and are afraid of change.


You're barking up the wrong tree here pal. I have no problem with
change. I do have a problem with change with little gain however. Look,
if all I did was PHP coding in large projects you'd perhaps have a
point. In fact I'd probably be using a PHP based IDE. But that's not
what I do. I code in many different languages and quite frankly having a
specialized IDE for each language would be way too much of a bother than
be considered any sort of productivity gain to me. IOW it wouldn't bring
me, in particular, any benefit. Is that really so difficult to
understand? That not everybody thinks like you nor wants to have your
environment? Pure arrogance on your part!
I use Jinzora (http://jinzora.org) on my web site. It's a fairly
complex PHP application. It's also done by two people. I doubt that
they use an IDE (I will ask...).


Sure, why don't you ask them what PHP framework they used, what year
they developed it in?


PHP framework they developed in? Isn't that totally irrelevant? We are
not talking framework rather we are talking IDE. I would pose the
question and I will but their system is under maintenance at the moment.
How many years it took em?
You want me to ask them that too? Does it really matter? After all it's
just two guys. My guess is they probably did it in way less time than
you and your mob of developers would have taken.... Then again I would
need a sizable application that you have developed in order to compare
the two...
What would make their life easier?
Who cares? And why do you feel the need to interject on them what you
think they need? If they are happy where there are at why should it
matter to you?
And then see if a IDE feature fits that description, and I'm sure you
will find your answer.
You're the salesman not I. They are just coders....
Comeon man at least Jerry had some semi valid arguments based on the
real world, you are talking completely out of your ass.
Oh yeah. So Jinzora is not real world. What is the real world for you? I
suppose you think my personal experience (again way longer than your
career) is also not real world experience. Well let me tell you - it is
indeed my real world and I'm living it.
I'm not even going to start on the personal attacks you made on my
spelling and grammar.
Sorry your spelling and grammar suck but that's really not something I
can help you with...
Considering with the internet, global villege etc.
Oh so you think because it's the Internet things like language don't
matter? Communication is communication. Get used to it!
You would think people can see past these differences.
Why should I have to?
Like not being able to speak or write flawlessly.
You mean not being able to communicate correctly nor effectively. Ah yes
I know that's an excuse that many people use. Then again it's an excuse
like any other. Tell me, what's wrong with communicating correctly?
But hey, from the above it is evident you are not worth the chair you
are sitting on.
I get paid very well thank you. Probably much more than you. I do not
need you to validate me.
So, I'll refrain from correspondance in your direction,
Oh wonderful. I'll mark my calendar in celebration.
and I'd like to ask you that you refrain from any in mine.
Sorry bud but I communicate with whoever I want to. You can ask all you
want. You'll just be disappointed.
And let my argument with Jerry continue without your petty bullshit.


Sorry you think it's petty. Guess you're gonna have to live with that...
--
Young at heart. Slightly older in other places.
Oct 25 '05 #43

P: n/a
> You're barking up the wrong tree here pal. I have no problem with
change. I do have a problem with change with little gain however. Look,
if all I did was PHP coding in large projects you'd perhaps have a
point. In fact I'd probably be using a PHP based IDE. But that's not
what I do. I code in many different languages and quite frankly having a
specialized IDE for each language would be way too much of a bother than
be considered any sort of productivity gain to me. IOW it wouldn't bring
me, in particular, any benefit. Is that really so difficult to
understand? That not everybody thinks like you nor wants to have your
environment? Pure arrogance on your part!


Quote from my original post:

"Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out there
other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for *large*
scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything more
then text pad, obviously have not worked on a *large* scale PHP project."

Which you obviously not read, my argument was only about large PHP
projects!!! What hints to that is *large* being scattered all the way
though that post, furthermore I said IMO.

So what am I to argue now?
That perhaps the problem isn't my communications skills?
But more your comprehension skills?
Or should I argue that you lied about having been *following* this thread?

You decide.
Actually do us all a favor and don't.

Because I'm sure there wont be: "Oh shit sorry, mate, I really started
hanging shit on you for no reason other then your bad spelling and
grammar". Because your unmeasurable ego wont let you. And you know what
the best thing is? Is that you know that I'm right. ;)

Oh yeah I noticed you some how managed to grab my *you are not worth the
chair you are sitting in* comment and turn it into something
materialistic, while I was simply referring to your integrity and moral
foundation, or should I say the lack of.

How's that for effective communication? Not bad, for a person who
started learning English at 15 ;)

Anyway, I'm. going home.. its been entertaining, well until Jerry left?
or went to bed, as he said he was in one.
Oct 25 '05 #44

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
You're barking up the wrong tree here pal. I have no problem with
change. I do have a problem with change with little gain however.
Look, if all I did was PHP coding in large projects you'd perhaps
have a point. In fact I'd probably be using a PHP based IDE. But
that's not what I do. I code in many different languages and quite
frankly having a specialized IDE for each language would be way too
much of a bother than be considered any sort of productivity gain to
me. IOW it wouldn't bring me, in particular, any benefit. Is that
really so difficult to understand? That not everybody thinks like you
nor wants to have your environment? Pure arrogance on your part!
Quote from my original post:

"Using Zend Studio at the moment. IMO opinion there's nothing out
there other then Zend and perhaps NuSphere (which I haven't tried)for
*large* scale PHP development.

And anyone that stated in this thread that they don't need anything
more then text pad, obviously have not worked on a *large* scale PHP
project."

Which you obviously not read, my argument was only about large PHP
projects!!!


Perhaps it was all of those grammatical errors that threw me. You know
things like "Which you obviously not read" which I suspect you really
meant "Which you obviously did not read..." and things like "IMO
opinion" which translates to "In My Opinion opinion". Guess I'm not sure
what an "opinion opinion" is really...

In any event, the fact still stands that IDEs aren't for everybody as
not everybody is limited to only coding PHP (or any other language for
that matter) let alone the fact that other people have differing
opinions than your arrogant one.
What hints to that is *large* being scattered all the way though that
post, furthermore I said IMO.

So what am I to argue now?
That perhaps the problem isn't my communications skills?
But more your comprehension skills?
Try correct English... Then we'll talk. ;-)
Or should I argue that you lied about having been *following* this
thread?
Didn't lie. Don't spend much time trying to sort out other peoples
communication difficulties though I must admit.

While we're at it you might want to explain why you are confused with my
statement (paraphrased here) in which I stated that I don't only code in
PHP. Exactly which part of that are you having difficult understanding?
I will help you with your English comprehension...
You decide.
Actually do us all a favor and don't.
No such favors granted... You do not speak for everybody (though you
arrogantly think you do).
Because I'm sure there wont be: "Oh shit sorry, mate, I really started
hanging shit on you for no reason other then your bad spelling and
grammar".
Yeah don't go holding your breath mate. ("Mate"? Makes you sound
English. And with such bad command of the language...)
Because your unmeasurable ego wont let you.
No there's that silly little thing about reality and truth that always
gets in my way.... Sorry about that.
And you know what the best thing is? Is that you know that I'm right. ;)
Not quite. I know that you are wrong however...
Oh yeah I noticed you some how managed to grab my *you are not worth
the chair you are sitting in* comment and turn it into something
materialistic, while I was simply referring to your integrity and
moral foundation, or should I say the lack of.
My integrity and moral foundation are thankfully still fully intact. I
speak from true experience and thus am unaffected by your drivel...

But I must point out, if you did not mean what you said then why did you
bother saying it?!?
How's that for effective communication?
Overall I'd grade it a C+. ;-)
Not bad, for a person who started learning English at 15 ;)
What in god's name were you waiting for... Mate! :-)
Anyway, I'm. going home.. its been entertaining, well until Jerry
left? or went to bed, as he said he was in one.


Glad to make your night. Sorry to say you did not make mine...
--
Why do you always turn down your radio when looking for an address?
Oct 25 '05 #45

P: n/a
Ramon wrote:
Sorry let me rephrase if you are unable to read between
the lines. I mean in theory you could do anything with
notepad,
I don't think anyone is suggesting the use of notepad. I
mean you could also use edlin if that takes your fancy ;)
it is not very effective on a large scale project.
Any yes... PHP programmer, that claims that a simple text
editor can be effective on a *LARGE* scale PHP project,
using Object Orientated Architecture, and claims that there
will be no benefit granted to him/her and/or the project by
utilizing a IDE is disillusioned.
The only problem with this argument is just because you
find it impossible to work efficiently with a text editor,
that does not automatically mean others will be the same.

The output of a programmer is text, so the efficency of
a programmer can be measured by the lines of code they
produce and the quality of that output.

So why is it so difficult to believe that some people WILL
code faster (ie are more efficient) using a text editor they
are familiar with, rather than an IDE to which they are not?
I am very willing to learn, and I have mastered the art of
texteditor & VI programming a long time ago. And frankly on
a large project interfacing a dozen other large systems, it
would be suicide to tred that path.


Once again, all this means is you might have mastered the art
of using a text editor, but you failed to master the task of
developing large project with anything other than an IDE.

It does not mean it is not possible.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows IDE
http://www.zeusedit.com

Oct 25 '05 #46

P: n/a
A waste of electrons? You decide, but Message-ID:
<dj***********@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au> from Ramon contained the following:
My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.


Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.


But for deep understanding you can't beat a plain vanilla text editor.
It's the difference between learning to drive in a car with a manual
gearbox as opposed to an automatic.

And I'm an old dog who has learned a few new tricks.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
Oct 25 '05 #47

P: n/a
Andrew DeFaria wrote:
Oli Filth wrote:
Sure, you should know what they do and what you're trying to achieve
by using them, but knowing whether it's xml_parser_create() or
XmlParserCreate() or xmlParserCreate() (or equally, whether it's
strstr($needle, $haystack) or strstr($haystack, $needle)) is nothing
but an exercise in trivia.

No, to me it's a sign that you don't know the function well enough...
I repeat my original point - where's the benefit in learning the
precise syntax for thousands of functions, especially custom functions
that may not be documented, or unfamiliar libraries?


And I will repeat mine: What good is it *not *to be familar with the
function call in question?


I'm not suggesting that one should try *not* to learn function syntax!
If you remember the syntax of all the functions you ever use, great!
The functions I use all the time, of course I know them off by heart by
force of habit.

However, I make no special effort to commit to memory
functions/functionality that I use once in a blue moon (e.g. in the
case of PHP, the rare occasion when I do need to use imagejpeg(), or
the optional arguments to preg_match_all()), because with a decent IDE
there's no need!

And you shouldn't have thousands of functions! If you got that much then
you should break things into smaller , more manageable pieces.


I was referring mainly to "built-in" functions, i.e. API functions.

But even user-written functions, it's hardly uncommon to have hundreds
of functions even in a relatively trivial application, is it? Yes, you
can encapsulate them by good use of OOP design, but ultimately there
are still hundreds of functions that have to be called at some point.

It doesn't make one a better programmer (in the sense of understanding
how to design and construct functional, elegant programs and code),


Sure it does.


How?

and is error-prone (in the sense that you have to wait until run-time
to spot your mistakes that would otherwise have been picked up by
syntax highlighting, or wouldn't have been there in the first place
due to autocompletion).


Who says that XEmacs, for example, doesn't do syntax highlighting?!?


Well, I wasn't referring to XEmacs when I wrote that, but I get the
impression from this thread that some people seem to write their code
in something little more advanced than Notepad ;)

Depends. Larger APIs ultimately afford you greater flexibility. You
probably couldn't shrink, for example, the Windows or Java APIs
without losing functionality and/or flexibility.


How many applications do you write that actually use more than a handful
of those APIs? And the Windows and Java APIs are not great examples of
well engineered and well thought out APIs, IMHO...


Do you have an example of an API (non-trivial, such as for an entire
framework e.g. MFC or Swing) that you would call "well thought out",
out of curiosity?

Well if you read the page you would see he write *all* of his
applications in assembly...


Yeah, I noticed that. IMO, that's a pointless waste of time, unless
he's doing it purely for the academic exercise. :)


You would argue that writing things efficiently is a pointless waste of
time. That speaks more about you than it does about me. Granted, I don't
write tight assembly code for my apps but I sure know enough to
appreciate somebody who does instead of calling his work pointless!


WOT, but...

Have you heard of the 80/20 rule (possibly the 90/10 rule)? The fact
that in most non-trivial applications, 80% of the execution time is
spent in 20% of the code, normally short data-intensive processing
loops, e.g. FFTs, low-level parsing, image-processing, etc. Sure,
optimise *those*, I agree; that wouldn't be pointless at all.

But optimising the other 80% of the code is a case of diminishing
returns; it simply won't make a worthwhile difference, because it's not
the rate-limiting bottleneck. Optimising, for instance, the GUI so that
it responds to a key-press 1 microsecond faster is of no benefit to
anyone (except perhaps in the case of low-level I/O hooks); no-one's
going to notice, and you'll probably have spent several hours in the
process.

Also, the fact that modern optimising compilers are, on the whole,
pretty good, means that the majority of your application binary won't
be any smaller or faster by writing the assembler yourself.

And the inordinate amount of time it would take to rewrite in assembler
what would be trivial code in C strikes me as grossly time-ineffective,
except in the case of the big bottle-necks (the 20%).

Not to mention that a whole application in pure assembler would be far
more error-prone, difficult to debug, difficult to maintain, difficult
to extend, and difficult to read as it affords no data abstraction -
the whole point of higher-level concepts such as data-types or OOP.

--
Oli

Oct 25 '05 #48

P: n/a
Geoff Berrow wrote:
A waste of electrons? You decide, but Message-ID:
<dj***********@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au> from Ramon contained the following:
My statement is that an IDE is NOT for everyone. Some people do even
better by not using one.


Very hard to belive, not sure how many people would use a texteditor
alternative to .NET tech.


But for deep understanding you can't beat a plain vanilla text editor.
It's the difference between learning to drive in a car with a manual
gearbox as opposed to an automatic.

And I'm an old dog who has learned a few new tricks.


Hmm... I don't have a car, but I'm sure IDE's will speed up the work
almost or at least to double than in text editors:-)

--
<?php echo 'Just another PHP saint'; ?>
Email: rrjanbiah-at-Y!com Blog: http://rajeshanbiah.blogspot.com/

Oct 25 '05 #49

P: n/a
Andrew DeFaria wrote:
Oli Filth wrote:
Andrew DeFaria said the following on 25/10/2005 02:29:

Sorry but that does not compute! Why is the presence of a compiler
dictate the need for an IDE? Both the interpreted and compiled based
languages can suffer from the same problem mentioned above.
I was refuting the idea that you could fix code errors on any PC
without "specialist" tools. That only applies for script-based
languages, and therefore isn't a general rule. Wasn't very clear
originally, I admit!


Sorry, still doesn't compute. What stops one from logging into a system
and tweaking and recompiling say a C program? Ah are you locked into MS
VisualStudio? Well lookee here! Another monolithic IDE application!
Which, of course, points to another reason why IDEs are indeed bad. It
seems you are admitting that without them you cannot work!


Whether the compiler and linker are built into an IDE or stand-alone,
you still need access to a compiler/linker in order to recompile and
rebuild after a code change, hence "'specialist' tools" in my earlier
point. I wasn't suggesting that the need for a compiler "dictates the
need for an IDE", simply that the previous argument (that not relying
on an IDE means you can work anywhere easily) isn't generally true.

You see it starts off with "Gee this is cool because it colors the
syntax. And look here it bring up the relevant documentation! And auto
completes. Cool, cool, cool. And I can drag and drop my files into this
project thingy and not have to think about make files" then progresses
to the point where, without the monolithic IDE application and your
"environment" you effectively can't work - and that's bad!


It kind of goes back to the "pain in the arse" argument. I *could*
write an entire application in Notepad/XEmacs/generic-text-editor, it
would just be a pain in the arse! The tools offered by the IDE greatly
increase my productivity, without detracting from my *understanding* of
my code (in the logical/design-structure sense) in any way.

I think there's a difference between IDEs and the calculator example.
By using a calculator to do your sums, it can act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to calculate (I agree, BTW ;) ). Using an IDE to remind
you of function syntax, for example, can't act as a replacement for
knowing *how* to construct a program.


I beg to differ. Often IDEs implement concepts of projects and other
things that are not only designed to work from the IDE, but can't work
at all unless you are in the IDE. You loose the concept of how to
construct the program outside of the context of the IDE itself.


Ah, perhaps I should've been clearer - when I said "construct", I guess
I meant "design", as in the design of class hierarchy, data-types,
algorithms, data abstraction, etc., not the physical implementation of
dividing into source files, using makefiles, source control, etc.

But then, knowing how to build a C app via the command-line, etc.
doesn't really offer much insight into how to build a Java app via the
command-line, nor how to perform gate-synthesis from VHDL without the
IDE. (The point being that the argument that knowing how to do it from
basics is a more fundamental/universally-applicable skill doesn't
necessarily follow either).

In the case of the IDE, it's not hiding anything "under the hood"
(FrontPage excepted).


I disagree. Take a sizable application that you use your IDE for and
take it out of the IDE. I bet you'll be surprised how it's not an easy
task to do...


Isn't that more a compatability issue? Clearly a C++ project done in MS
VS won't work in the Borland IDE "straight out of the box", for
example.

--
Oli

Oct 25 '05 #50

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