Now Microsoft wants you to debug .Net....

[jim]

Microsoft announced that it will be releasing its source code for the .Net
libraries. But, don't get too excited at Microsoft's new SHARED source
initiative.

According to CNET (at http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9790863-7.html), "The
source code will be released under Microsoft's Reference License. This means
that you can only use the source as a reference for debugging, maintaining
or enhancing your applications. You cannot modify or distribute the code for
any purpose. This happens to be the most restricted shared-source license
that Microsoft has. This announcement confirms that .Net is going to be
shared source, not to be confused with open source."

So, it seems that Microsoft is trying to *look* like an open company while
keeping the shackles firmly around the ankles of its users.

It's quite ingenious actually. There have been a large number of issues
with .Net (www.kbalertz.com is a good place to start your search if you want
to see just how many Microsoft has reported). And, what better way to fix
those than to basically recruit everyone else to debug your framework.

It's like open source....only without the open part. Microsoft calles it
"shared source". Which I think is deceptive. If I told you that I was
going to "share" my ice cream with you, would you think that I was going to
give some of my ice cream for you to eat (or do with as you please) or would
you think that I was merely going to allow you to look at my ice cream while
I ate my fill?

"Shared source" indeed.

jim

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

Jon Skeet [C# MVP] wrote:

jim <ji*@home.netwr ote:

Microsoft announced that it will be releasing its source code for
the .Net libraries. But, don't get too excited at Microsoft's new
SHARED source initiative.

<snip>

Way to look at the negatives. Interesting how you completely ignored
the positive sides of being able to debug into the framework code,
see how it works, and potentially spot bugs to report and work around.

sure, but the price is currently too high.

Why would MS block their own developers from looking at GPL-ed code?
Isn't that the same concern?

I also don't see why it would be good to fix bugs: you can't recompile
the code! so you can't fix it, as you can't test your fix.

FB
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET
LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

On Oct 5, 10:32 am, "Frans Bouma [C# MVP]"
<perseus.usenet NOS...@xs4all.n lwrote:

Way to look at the negatives. Interesting how you completely ignored
the positive sides of being able to debug into the framework code,
see how it works, and potentially spot bugs to report and work around.

sure, but the price is currently too high.

For you, possibly - it's certainly not too high for me.

Why would MS block their own developers from looking at GPL-ed code?
Isn't that the same concern?

They may well block their own devs from looking at GPL code, for
exactly the same reason.

I also don't see why it would be good to fix bugs: you can't recompile
the code! so you can't fix it, as you can't test your fix.

If I see a bug and report it, it may be fixed in a service pack or the
next release.
If I don't see the bug and don't report it, it may not get fixed as
early.

Likewise, if I can see exactly what the bug is, I may well be able to
work round it in a much better fashion than if I'm guessing at what's
going on.

Jon

[Larry Smith]

Most programmers could care less about open source. And since most of those
who do whine about such a frivolous matter would be ashamed to reveal their
own code (or should be), they would do their employers and their customers a
huge favour by improving their own programming skills instead of complaining
about MSFT.

[Kevin Spencer]

You're overlooking something here, jim. Microsoft is not charging any money
to do this, although it will cost them money to do it. In other words, it's
a freebie, a gift. I think I hear you complaining that the gift is not what
you want it to be, which is a pretty crappy way to receive a gift.

The idea that Microsoft "owes" anybody anything (beyond what people pay for)
is ridiculous. They are a business, and are in business to make money. They
are not a charity, and are under no moral obligation to give anything away
for free. When you purchase software from the company, they enter into a
contract (as specified in the license) which stipulates what you may expect
from them in return for your money. Beyond what you pay for, anything else
is a free gift.

When I read stuff like this, I can't help but wonder if the author has a
job, how much they freely give to their employers in addition to what they
are expected to do for the salary that they are paid, and how much they
would do for their employers if they were not paid anything at all.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP

DSI PrintManager, Miradyne Component Libraries:
http://www.miradyne.net

"jim" <ji*@home.netwr ote in message
news:ZW******** **********@bign ews8.bellsouth. net...

Microsoft announced that it will be releasing its source code for the .Net
libraries. But, don't get too excited at Microsoft's new SHARED source
initiative.

According to CNET (at http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9790863-7.html),
"The source code will be released under Microsoft's Reference License.
This means that you can only use the source as a reference for debugging,
maintaining or enhancing your applications. You cannot modify or
distribute the code for any purpose. This happens to be the most
restricted shared-source license that Microsoft has. This announcement
confirms that .Net is going to be shared source, not to be confused with
open source."

So, it seems that Microsoft is trying to *look* like an open company while
keeping the shackles firmly around the ankles of its users.

It's quite ingenious actually. There have been a large number of issues
with .Net (www.kbalertz.com is a good place to start your search if you
want to see just how many Microsoft has reported). And, what better way
to fix those than to basically recruit everyone else to debug your
framework.

It's like open source....only without the open part. Microsoft calles it
"shared source". Which I think is deceptive. If I told you that I was
going to "share" my ice cream with you, would you think that I was going
to give some of my ice cream for you to eat (or do with as you please) or
would you think that I was merely going to allow you to look at my ice
cream while I ate my fill?

"Shared source" indeed.

jim

[Peter Duniho]

Kevin Spencer wrote:

You're overlooking something here, jim. Microsoft is not charging any money
to do this, although it will cost them money to do it. In other words, it's
a freebie, a gift. I think I hear you complaining that the gift is not what
you want it to be, which is a pretty crappy way to receive a gift.

No kidding.

Jon already said it: it's unlikely that anything Microsoft does,
including things like releasing their own source code voluntarily, will
ever be met with anything but derision and criticism from people like
the fanatical open source community. (And note: not all of the open
source community is fanatical...but I'm talking about that very vocal
subset that is, who treat open source practically like a religion).

It didn't take even a day for some of those fanatics to decide that
Microsoft isn't actually trying to be helpful, but rather is simply
putting out bait to snare unsuspecting developers:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2191754,00.asp

These people are never going to be satisfied. They will always find a
way to turn something positive into something negative. And there's no
point in discussing it with them, because they _start_ with the
conclusion that Microsoft is evil, and then proceed from there. Any
information that might contradict their world view is summarily ignored,
and so it is useless to try to provide that information.

I think the uproar over this particular issue is even more amusing,
given how much Microsoft stands to _gain_ if Mono takes hold. Mono
isn't a threat to Microsoft at all...if it can succeed, it would simply
entrench Microsoft's hold on the platform market even further. Novell
et al can no more wrest Microsoft's control of the .NET away from them
than Microsoft was able to do the same for Sun's Java (and they
certainly did try). So all they can hope to accomplish is to make .NET
an even more attractive development platform than it already is.

Microsoft may have the legal stance that no one, including Mono, may use
the .NET source code to reimplement .NET on other platforms. However,
it seems to me that it's unlikely they would invest a lot of effort in
preventing that, since the outcome for something like that would be
positive for them.

Pete

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Jon,

Likewise, if I can see exactly what the bug is, I may well be able to
work round it in a much better fashion than if I'm guessing at what's
going on.

I don't like customers who do that, it opens only discussions while mostly I
can solve it much easier without that customer who tells how I have to solve
it.

:-)

Cor

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=]

Peter Duniho wrote:

Jon already said it: it's unlikely that anything Microsoft does,
including things like releasing their own source code voluntarily, will
ever be met with anything but derision and criticism from people like
the fanatical open source community. (And note: not all of the open
source community is fanatical...but I'm talking about that very vocal
subset that is, who treat open source practically like a religion).

It didn't take even a day for some of those fanatics to decide that
Microsoft isn't actually trying to be helpful, but rather is simply
putting out bait to snare unsuspecting developers:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2191754,00.asp

These people are never going to be satisfied. They will always find a
way to turn something positive into something negative. And there's no
point in discussing it with them, because they _start_ with the
conclusion that Microsoft is evil, and then proceed from there. Any
information that might contradict their world view is summarily ignored,
and so it is useless to try to provide that information.

There are certainly a lot of open source fanatics that live by the
mantra "MS is bad =whatever MS does is bad".

(as a side note: am I the only one who has noted that the one which
involvement with open source is the ability to install Ubuntu on a PC
in general seems to be more aggressive than those actually contributing
to open source probjects ??)

But I would not put Novell and Mono in that category.

Arne