border-collapse:collapse and seperates; Can you have it both ways in one table?

[Barbara de Zoete]

Here's what I'm trying to do:

Create a table with generic style property [ border-collapse:seperate; ].
Have a few table cells in the thead that 'have to' melt into eachother, so
needing the style [ border-collapse:collapse; ].

Looking somthing like:

,------------.------------.
| | header |
| other | one | two |
|============|======|=====|
| data data | 1,25 | aA |
|------------|------|-----|
| more data | 2,50 | aB |
`------------'------'-----'

See how 'header' and 'one' and 'two' more or less optically melt into
eachother?

I've setup a test page at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
(styles in the page). In the head of the table on that page the cells that
I optically want to melt into one are 'TV-station' and 'kort' and
'volledig'.

How can I achieve the look I want?

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[Spartanicus]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

Looking somthing like:

,------------.------------.
| | header |
| other | one | two |
|============|======|=====|
| data data | 1,25 | aA |
|------------|------|-----|
| more data | 2,50 | aB |
`------------'------'-----'
Real content please.
See how 'header' and 'one' and 'two' more or less optically melt into
eachother?

I've setup a test page at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
(styles in the page). In the head of the table on that page the cells that
I optically want to melt into one are 'TV-station' and 'kort' and
'volledig'.

I'm probably missing something as I don't see the problem:
http://homepage.ntlworld.ie/spartanicus/temp.htm

--
Spartanicus

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:43:41 +0100, Spartanicus <in*****@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

Looking somthing like:

,------------.------------.
| | header |
| other | one | two |
|============|======|=====|
| data data | 1,25 | aA |
|------------|------|-----|
| more data | 2,50 | aB |
`------------'------'-----'

Real content please.

As I provided with the url, didn't I.

See how 'header' and 'one' and 'two' more or less optically melt into
eachother?

I've setup a test page at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
(styles in the page). In the head of the table on that page the cells
that
I optically want to melt into one are 'TV-station' and 'kort' and
'volledig'.

I'm probably missing something as I don't see the problem:
http://homepage.ntlworld.ie/spartanicus/temp.htm

Well, I do see the problem: the vertical borders of the cell containing
'TV-station' don't connect with the vertical borders of the two cells in
the next row (in both Opera8.5 and FF1.5). There's a 2px gap. The
cellspacing="2" probably does that, as does the border-collapse:separate;
in my example.
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[Spartanicus]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

Real content please.

As I provided with the url, didn't I.

And not in the message text didn't you.

I'm probably missing something as I don't see the problem:
http://homepage.ntlworld.ie/spartanicus/temp.htm

Well, I do see the problem: the vertical borders of the cell containing
'TV-station' don't connect with the vertical borders of the two cells in
the next row (in both Opera8.5 and FF1.5). There's a 2px gap. The
cellspacing="2" probably does that, as does the border-collapse:separate;
in my example.

So you've answered your own question right?
http://homepage.ntlworld.ie/spartanicus/temp.htm (updated)

--
Spartanicus

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 17:05:28 +0100, Spartanicus <in*****@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

Real content please.

As I provided with the url, didn't I.

And not in the message text didn't you.

And the problem with that is?

I'm probably missing something as I don't see the problem:
http://homepage.ntlworld.ie/spartanicus/temp.htm

Well, I do see the problem: the vertical borders of the cell containing
'TV-station' don't connect with the vertical borders of the two cells in
the next row (in both Opera8.5 and FF1.5). There's a 2px gap. The
cellspacing="2" probably does that, as does the
border-collapse:separate;
in my example.

So you've answered your own question right?
http://homepage.ntlworld.ie/spartanicus/temp.htm (updated)

Nice, but now the cellspacing throughout the table is gone. I want the
cellspacing, just not for those three cells. Looks like that cannot be
done. Neither with markup attributes/values or with css. Right?

Bummer...
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[Spartanicus]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

Real content please.

As I provided with the url, didn't I.
And not in the message text didn't you.

And the problem with that is?

That I had to retrieve the remote document where there should have been
no need for me to do so.
I want the cellspacing

It's obvious that you are intent on making it difficult to be helped by
withholding information, as a regular you should know better. I'm not
going to try and drag it out of you by asking why. Good luck.

--
Spartanicus

[Jim Moe]

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

Here's what I'm trying to do:

Create a table with generic style property [ border-collapse:seperate; ].
Have a few table cells in the thead that 'have to' melt into eachother, so
needing the style [ border-collapse:collapse; ].

Like this?:
<http://sohnen-moe.com/test/t.html>

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[Barbara de Zoete]

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:36:36 +0100, Jim Moe
<jm***************@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

Here's what I'm trying to do:
Create a table with generic style property [ border-collapse:seperate;
].
Have a few table cells in the thead that 'have to' melt into eachother,
so
needing the style [ border-collapse:collapse; ].

Like this?:
<http://sohnen-moe.com/test/t.html>

Nice try, but no, that is not it. That solid border is something quite
different from the separate inset borders I'm after. I know the 'ascii-art
thingy' didn't have separate borders, but the example at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
does. And the text explains it too.

Thanks for trying though.

Anyone else wants to have a go at this? It seems so simple a task, and
yet...

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[Barbara de Zoete]

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:19:22 +0100, Spartanicus <in*****@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

> Real content please.

As I provided with the url, didn't I.

And not in the message text didn't you.

And the problem with that is?

That I had to retrieve the remote document where there should have been
no need for me to do so.

That's a rather weird response comming from you. If no URL is provided in
a request for help, the only response people get from especially you is
'Please provide URL'. The complaint in that case being 'I had to copy and
past your content from your post to a text document, save it as html and
then open it in my browser.'
Now a URL *is* provided and you come back with 'I had to retrieve the
remote document'. Please make up your mind to what you prefer.

I want the cellspacing

It's obvious that you are intent on making it difficult to be helped by
withholding information,

See, that's why I provided the URL,

<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>

because in that example it is obvious I want some cellspacing. Helping
myself by helping those who _want_to_help_ by providing a live example is
exactly what one is supposed to do.

Don't be so grumpy Spartanicus. There is absolutely no reason to be like
this. It is a rather tough puzzle and I can't solve it, and by the looks
of it, neither can you. That's okay. It's just a puzzle.
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[Spartanicus]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

>> Real content please.
>
> As I provided with the url, didn't I.

And not in the message text didn't you.

And the problem with that is?
That I had to retrieve the remote document where there should have been
no need for me to do so.

That's a rather weird response comming from you. If no URL is provided in
a request for help, the only response people get from especially you is
'Please provide URL'. The complaint in that case being 'I had to copy and
past your content from your post to a text document, save it as html and
then open it in my browser.'
Now a URL *is* provided and you come back with 'I had to retrieve the
remote document'.

This type of question on presentation does not benefit from uploaded
example code, an in-message ascii drawing or uploaded graphic drawing is
required to know what is wanted. [1]

I didn't see any problem in creating the look you wanted, so I created a
test case to make sure. It provided the look as set out per your
requirements, and then I thought "hold on, is this correct markup?", I
then had to retrieve the example code to see if that contained real
content, and in the process noticed that the ascii drawing was not what
you were actually trying to do.

[1] Accompanied with any further requirements that cannot be expressed
in a drawing, and the reason for same, both you failed to provide.

I want the cellspacing

It's obvious that you are intent on making it difficult to be helped by
withholding information,

See, that's why I provided the URL,

<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>

because in that example it is obvious I want some cellspacing.

It may be to you, it's a mystery to me.
Don't be so grumpy Spartanicus.
Pot, kettle.
It is a rather tough puzzle and I can't solve it, and by the looks
of it, neither can you.

Solving a puzzle requires having all the pieces, you are continuing to
withhold required pieces.

--
Spartanicus

[Stephen Poley]

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 08:11:02 +0100, "Barbara de Zoete"
<tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 21:36:36 +0100, Jim Moe
<jm***************@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

Here's what I'm trying to do:
Create a table with generic style property [ border-collapse:seperate;
].
Have a few table cells in the thead that 'have to' melt into eachother,
so
needing the style [ border-collapse:collapse; ].

Like this?:
<http://sohnen-moe.com/test/t.html>

Nice try, but no, that is not it. That solid border is something quite
different from the separate inset borders I'm after. I know the 'ascii-art
thingy' didn't have separate borders, but the example at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
does. And the text explains it too.

Thanks for trying though.

Anyone else wants to have a go at this? It seems so simple a task, and
yet...

Sorry, I can't make any progress either. On reflection I think it
reasonable that combining the two border-collapse values isn't possible.
What you're trying to do isn't collapsing the borders, but trying to
fill in the space in between with a different colour.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Jim Moe]

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

Nice try, but no, that is not it. That solid border is something quite
different from the separate inset borders I'm after. I know the 'ascii-art
thingy' didn't have separate borders, but the example at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
does. And the text explains it too.

Well, the URL shows your undesirable layout, not what you want. Your
ascii art shows that you do not want a border under "TV-station."
Basically you cannot get what you want, as I understand it. The table's
background color shines through any cell spacing (border-spacing)
regardless of cell border style.
See <http://sohnen-moe.com/test/t.html> (updated). Setting
border-spacing:0 removes the line under TV-station (the table's bg color
is no longer visible), but changes the <td>s border look.

--
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[Barbara de Zoete]

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:12:53 +0100, Stephen Poley
<sb******************@xs4all.nl> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 08:11:02 +0100, "Barbara de Zoete"
<tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>

Anyone else wants to have a go at this? It seems so simple a task, and
yet...

Sorry, I can't make any progress either. On reflection I think it
reasonable that combining the two border-collapse values isn't possible.
What you're trying to do isn't collapsing the borders, but trying to
fill in the space in between with a different colour.

Euhm, no I don't think that is what I want. It would have more or less the
same effect, but it is not the same thing. The gaps should go away. The
border-spacing or cellspacing should go away, hence the border-collapse
thing.

But, hey, if the effect can be done in an other way, I'm happy to addept.
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[Barbara de Zoete]

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:14:48 +0100, Jim Moe
<jm***************@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

Nice try, but no, that is not it. That solid border is something quite
different from the separate inset borders I'm after. I know the
'ascii-art
thingy' didn't have separate borders, but the example at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
does. And the text explains it too.
Basically you cannot get what you want, as I understand it. The table's
background color shines through any cell spacing (border-spacing)
regardless of cell border style.

I've noticed that. That's why the borders on the involved cells were set
to 0, *and* I thought border-collapse:collapse; (combined with
cellspacing="0" or border-spacing:0; if necessary) would take care of
those cells without border then melting into one area. Those
attributes/values or properties/values don't work on anything but the
entire table though.
See <http://sohnen-moe.com/test/t.html> (updated). Setting
border-spacing:0 removes the line under TV-station (the table's bg color
is no longer visible), but changes the <td>s border look.

Yeah, the example shows pretty much the same effect I got so far. And I
know removing the border-spacing will change the look of the entire table,
which (in this casus) is undesirable.

Puzzle still not solved :-)

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[Els]

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:14:48 +0100, Jim Moe
<jm***************@sohnen-moe.com> wrote:

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

Nice try, but no, that is not it. That solid border is something quite
different from the separate inset borders I'm after. I know the
'ascii-art
thingy' didn't have separate borders, but the example at
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>
does. And the text explains it too.

Basically you cannot get what you want, as I understand it. The table's
background color shines through any cell spacing (border-spacing)
regardless of cell border style.

I've noticed that. That's why the borders on the involved cells were set
to 0, *and* I thought border-collapse:collapse; (combined with
cellspacing="0" or border-spacing:0; if necessary) would take care of
those cells without border then melting into one area. Those
attributes/values or properties/values don't work on anything but the
entire table though.

See <http://sohnen-moe.com/test/t.html> (updated). Setting
border-spacing:0 removes the line under TV-station (the table's bg color
is no longer visible), but changes the <td>s border look.

Yeah, the example shows pretty much the same effect I got so far. And I
know removing the border-spacing will change the look of the entire table,
which (in this casus) is undesirable.

Puzzle still not solved :-)

The only thing I can come up with, is using border-style:ridge; on the
cells (and collapsing the borders), and set the border-width wide
enough so that the actual ridge looks like border-spacing. The side
effect though, is that the "shadows" in the cells get just as wide
too, which I don't think you like.

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/

Now playing: Technohead - I Wanna Be A Hippy

[Jim Moe]

Barbara de Zoete wrote:

Basically you cannot get what you want, as I understand it.

[ ... border-spacing, border-collapse ...] Those
attributes/values or properties/values don't work on anything but the
entire table though.

This is true.
Puzzle still not solved :-)

And it will never be. Not without changing your requirements.

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[Stephen Poley]

On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 08:34:18 +0100, "Barbara de Zoete"
<tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:12:53 +0100, Stephen Poley
<sb******************@xs4all.nl> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 08:11:02 +0100, "Barbara de Zoete"
<tr******@pretletters.net> wrote:

<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/testing_data_tables.REKAM_frequenties.html>

Anyone else wants to have a go at this? It seems so simple a task, and
yet...
Sorry, I can't make any progress either. On reflection I think it
reasonable that combining the two border-collapse values isn't possible.
What you're trying to do isn't collapsing the borders, but trying to
fill in the space in between with a different colour.

Euhm, no I don't think that is what I want. It would have more or less the
same effect, but it is not the same thing. The gaps should go away. The
border-spacing or cellspacing should go away, hence the border-collapse
thing.

Right, but (unless I'm getting completely confused) the use of
border-collapse means that the cells (other than the first) are actually
placed in a different position - they get shunted leftwards and upwards.
And that you don't want.
But, hey, if the effect can be done in an other way, I'm happy to addept.

Well ... there's always an image. <dives under the table at great
speed>

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/