What are the best css designs?

[Mark Johnson]

Oddly enough, I found it difficult, using Google, to find a list of
best-of sites based on the quality of their css packages.

So I'd ask. Does anyone know of particularly good sites which are in
good measure because of their creative and useful css designs? I'm
aware of Zen Garden and a few others. So don't bother with those. And
I hope I don't get replies from people with a 'tin ear' and no design
sense. Good sites. Good pages. That's what I'm asking about - not
mediocre stuff.

[Darin McGrew]

Mark Johnson <10*******@comp userve.com> wrote:

I was inspired by the Zen Garden stuff, for example. Do they just do
it all wrong, as it were?

One accessibility problem with many of the CSS Zen Garden designs is a
result of the (rather artificial) constraints of the project. Many of the
designs use CSS to hide a specific bit of text, and then display an image
in its place. This breaks accessibility when CSS is supported, but images
are not downloaded. But in production situations, one would use an image
with appropriate ALT text.

And many of the designs don't adapt very gracefully to different sizes of
browser windows, or different default font sizes. But what else is new?
That problem is hardly unique to the CSS Zen Garden.
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanford alumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp. com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance."

[Josh Lee]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:31:29 -0700, Mark Johnson wrote:

Oddly enough, I found it difficult, using Google, to find a list of
best-of sites based on the quality of their css packages.

So I'd ask. Does anyone know of particularly good sites which are in
good measure because of their creative and useful css designs? I'm
aware of Zen Garden and a few others. So don't bother with those. And
I hope I don't get replies from people with a 'tin ear' and no design
sense. Good sites. Good pages. That's what I'm asking about - not
mediocre stuff.

I always take my inspiration from the Strange Banana. It produces simply
beautiful designs.

http://www.strangebanana.com/generator.aspx

[Josh Lee]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:31:29 -0700, Mark Johnson wrote:

Oddly enough, I found it difficult, using Google, to find a list of
best-of sites based on the quality of their css packages.

So I'd ask. Does anyone know of particularly good sites which are in
good measure because of their creative and useful css designs? I'm
aware of Zen Garden and a few others. So don't bother with those. And
I hope I don't get replies from people with a 'tin ear' and no design
sense. Good sites. Good pages. That's what I'm asking about - not
mediocre stuff.

I always take my inspiration from the Strange Banana. It produces simply
beautiful designs.

http://www.strangebanana.com/generator.aspx

[Spartanicus]

Mark Johnson <10*******@comp userve.com> wrote:

designers rarely use html and css properly.

I was inspired by the Zen Garden stuff, for example. Do they just do
it all wrong, as it were?
If you mean designers

I mean the Zen Garden stuff.

css Zen Garden showcases what I consider a css circus trick in an
attempt to captivate designers. Presumably they've done this because
designers typically don't care about the real benefits of correctly
coded sites.

What was it about css Zen Garden that inspired you?
They have the aural styles.
Where? There would be virtually no point since there is only 1 obscure
linux only UA that supports aural stylesheets (emacspeak).
The pages
degrade flawlessly. What problems do you find with:

issues like structure, accessability and usability.

The content is properly marked up, but the very purpose of css Zen
Garden demonstrates my point ("designers rarely use html and css
properly").

Alas the site's default style unnecessarily requires a minimum window
width of approx 1000px, it uses pt font sizing, no generic fall back
font is specified etc. Some other issues like using css background
images where normal images would be required are the result of the
circus trick nature of the site.

Coding is Coding, and Design is Design, and never the twain shall meet
;-)

--
Spartanicus

[Spartanicus]

Mark Johnson <10*******@comp userve.com> wrote:

designers rarely use html and css properly.

I was inspired by the Zen Garden stuff, for example. Do they just do
it all wrong, as it were?
If you mean designers

I mean the Zen Garden stuff.

css Zen Garden showcases what I consider a css circus trick in an
attempt to captivate designers. Presumably they've done this because
designers typically don't care about the real benefits of correctly
coded sites.

What was it about css Zen Garden that inspired you?
They have the aural styles.
Where? There would be virtually no point since there is only 1 obscure
linux only UA that supports aural stylesheets (emacspeak).
The pages
degrade flawlessly. What problems do you find with:

issues like structure, accessability and usability.

The content is properly marked up, but the very purpose of css Zen
Garden demonstrates my point ("designers rarely use html and css
properly").

Alas the site's default style unnecessarily requires a minimum window
width of approx 1000px, it uses pt font sizing, no generic fall back
font is specified etc. Some other issues like using css background
images where normal images would be required are the result of the
circus trick nature of the site.

Coding is Coding, and Design is Design, and never the twain shall meet
;-)

--
Spartanicus

[Mark Johnson]

Spartanicus <[e-mail] > wrote:

Mark Johnson <10*******@comp userve.com> wrote:

I mean the Zen Garden stuff.

Alas the site's default style unnecessarily requires a minimum window
width of approx 1000px
Not the csszengarden page. What's the URL you're talking about? And
what specifically happens?
it uses pt font sizing
Apparently one school demands that "pt" be used for font size, and
another that "px" should be used. Is that what you mean? You're not
being very clear.
no generic fall back font is specified
Such as "sans-serif", or something? I'd be surprized if it wasn't.
Again, what is the URL for this?
Some other issues like using css background
images where normal images would be required
What would be the problem, here, as you see it? I'm not sure I even
understand your complaint.
are the result of the circus trick nature of the site.

It generally has to do with the use of positioning. But this is built
in to style, and plays a large part in the documentation. It's not a
mistake, if that's what you're getting at.

Do you _really_ have any substantive complaints with zen garden? Or is
there someone who told you that you have to object to their efforts,
for some reason or other - but you haven't been able to come up with
your own reasons, as yet? I can only guess, here, unless you want to
be more specific. And I wish you had been, the first time. _I_ always
try to be.

[Mark Johnson]

Spartanicus <[e-mail] > wrote:

Mark Johnson <10*******@comp userve.com> wrote:

I mean the Zen Garden stuff.

Alas the site's default style unnecessarily requires a minimum window
width of approx 1000px
Not the csszengarden page. What's the URL you're talking about? And
what specifically happens?
it uses pt font sizing
Apparently one school demands that "pt" be used for font size, and
another that "px" should be used. Is that what you mean? You're not
being very clear.
no generic fall back font is specified
Such as "sans-serif", or something? I'd be surprized if it wasn't.
Again, what is the URL for this?
Some other issues like using css background
images where normal images would be required
What would be the problem, here, as you see it? I'm not sure I even
understand your complaint.
are the result of the circus trick nature of the site.

It generally has to do with the use of positioning. But this is built
in to style, and plays a large part in the documentation. It's not a
mistake, if that's what you're getting at.

Do you _really_ have any substantive complaints with zen garden? Or is
there someone who told you that you have to object to their efforts,
for some reason or other - but you haven't been able to come up with
your own reasons, as yet? I can only guess, here, unless you want to
be more specific. And I wish you had been, the first time. _I_ always
try to be.

[Mark Johnson]

Brian <us*****@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> wrote:

I would not advocate using fonts for the main text of a document to be
anything other than 100% of the user's chosen or browser default font
size.
That's not a bad idea. Because all you see in the use of style sheets
in the so-called 'professional' sites are fonts that are too small to
read, and which can't be resized. What _I_ did, for an upcoming site,
is break down the style by client width. If it fell below say, 900,
then another sheet is loaded with smaller fonts and whatever else.
Otherwise, you have the 'normal' style. Most people seem to use 1024
or greater. And width, not height, is really the problem area. I also
see some sites using a font size button, that goes right to the
styles. But I supposed there's some javascript ? :
I would never advocate relying on js for anything.
Not even cookies? or cascading menus? That's what javascript is used
for. I like the idea of designing a no-frills version for NN 3,
including all the tag and containers for use with later styles, and
then using the styles to change things around. But if styles fail, or
whatever, then the basic page is displayed as designed. I also filter
the styles by IE and NN. So an Opera user will see the NN 3 version,
and that's it. The NN 7 folks will get a different style sheet. NN 6 -
I would like to punish those who use NN 6 . . but I don't have the
ability.

designer who saw that site were convinced that creativity does not have
to be sacrificed in order to achieve accessibility or flexibility, then
I'd say job well done.

What would be good example of this better design, in your opinion?
What would be some URLs?

[Mark Johnson]

Brian <us*****@juliet remblay.com.inv alid> wrote:

I would not advocate using fonts for the main text of a document to be
anything other than 100% of the user's chosen or browser default font
size.
That's not a bad idea. Because all you see in the use of style sheets
in the so-called 'professional' sites are fonts that are too small to
read, and which can't be resized. What _I_ did, for an upcoming site,
is break down the style by client width. If it fell below say, 900,
then another sheet is loaded with smaller fonts and whatever else.
Otherwise, you have the 'normal' style. Most people seem to use 1024
or greater. And width, not height, is really the problem area. I also
see some sites using a font size button, that goes right to the
styles. But I supposed there's some javascript ? :
I would never advocate relying on js for anything.
Not even cookies? or cascading menus? That's what javascript is used
for. I like the idea of designing a no-frills version for NN 3,
including all the tag and containers for use with later styles, and
then using the styles to change things around. But if styles fail, or
whatever, then the basic page is displayed as designed. I also filter
the styles by IE and NN. So an Opera user will see the NN 3 version,
and that's it. The NN 7 folks will get a different style sheet. NN 6 -
I would like to punish those who use NN 6 . . but I don't have the
ability.

designer who saw that site were convinced that creativity does not have
to be sacrificed in order to achieve accessibility or flexibility, then
I'd say job well done.

What would be good example of this better design, in your opinion?
What would be some URLs?

[Mark Johnson]

Darin McGrew <mc****@stanfor dalumni.org> wrote:

Mark Johnson <10*******@comp userve.com> wrote:

I was inspired by the Zen Garden stuff, for example. Do they just do
it all wrong, as it were?

designs use CSS to hide a specific bit of text, and then display an image
in its place. This breaks accessibility
Because:
when CSS is supported, but images are not downloaded.
Are you saying that the background isn't loaded from the server? and
that if you reload the page, it won't work, or something?

What the example of this?
But in production situations, one would use an image
with appropriate ALT text.
What if it's just intended as part of the background?
And many of the designs don't adapt very gracefully to different sizes of
browser windows
You mean different widths, correct?
or different default font sizes.
Someone else complained that these were fixing the font size. Are you
saying that some don't?
That problem is hardly unique to the CSS Zen Garden.

Problems with the fonts?