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site review request

http://www.galtsvalley.com

Hi all. I've recently made some major stylistic changes to my site and now
it is essentially a new design with some new CSS plumbing. I am hoping that
a few hardy souls can go check it out and tell me how it renders on their
platform/browser combos. I have tested it under W2K, WXP, and System 9 on a
Power Mac 8600:

W2K: IE5.5 and Opera 7.1 (some small issues in Opera)
WXP: IE6 and NS7.1 (in IE6 a strange jerkiness when clicking on links that
are not inline... bottom margins seem to collapse a bit...)
OS9/Mac: IE5.1 and NS6 (very good)

Reports on Mozilla, Firebird, other NS and IE versions, and later Mac
platforms most appreciated!

Brian
Jul 20 '05
72 4496
"Jonathan Snook" <go************ ***@snook.ca> exclaimed in <Oz************ *******@news02. bloor.is.net.ca ble.rogers.com> :
"Brian" <us*****@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in message
news:cy6fb.4825 36$Oz4.327033@r wcrnsc54...
There is no extra cost to creating a site that works on every
resolution. Why do you keep insisting that there is?
really? so, your site will work great on my PDA? all your images will show
without horizontal scroll?


Would you recommend that a site about photography have all images sized to
work on a PDA? What about a cell phone? Is that practical? I think not. I
would drop your site in a minute on my 1600x1200 screen.


A web browser provides you, the visitor, with a peephole into the
imagination of someone else.

You can compare it to taking photographs of artwork. If a painting is too
wide to fit, you'll have to step back, sacrificing detail to see the
whole picture. This is the nature of the physical world.

A photograph on the web has an intrinsic size. If that size is too large
for the browser, some genius came up with the idea of scrollbars - instead
of having the image cut, or having to rescale it to fit, the user can
move his little peephole about, seeing the entire thing. You do the same
thing with your camera if you focus on another section of the above painting.

That is what scrollbars are there FOR.

Textual content does NOT have an intrinsic width in the same way. That means
it is flexible, and can adapt to the size of your peephole - *unless* the
author has decided to make it hard on you by trying to impose a size on
the content that does not exist *in* the content.
Resolution - and it really isn't worth repeating any more - has nothing
to do with it. The nature of the content has everything to do with it.

Noone - and I mean NOONE - has claimed you should degrade your images to
fit someones window size.

--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies
ti**@greytower. net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905
Jul 20 '05 #41
> There is no extra cost to creating a site that works on every
resolution. Why do you keep insisting that there is?


Jonathan's point reminds us that it's a very complicated client device world
out there. Almost too complicated to merit a rigid philosophical stance on
what might be considered "necessary" elements of good CSS-based website
design. That said, in my case, I think I agree with Brian and Shagnasty. The
only reasons I resisted making my site more accessible was because of (a)
sheer exhaustion and (b) lack of knowledge. But it wasn't an extra mile I
had to go. It was an extra inch. And I did it and it was nothing. It made
economic sense, perhaps.

I have designed for severely resource-constrained devices though, and
Jonathan's remarks stand at the very top of this argument on what it takes
to achieve universal accessibility. In the end, everyone has got to decide
who they're designing for. And the advice given them maybe has to take this
into account. Maybe there is no perfectly general advice.

I hope I haven't stuck my head out too far. Brian may come in for the kick.

(He's always just outside my peripheral vision...)

- the newbier Brian
Jul 20 '05 #42
Tina Holmboe wrote:
"Barry Pearson" <ne**@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> exclaimed in
<0g************ *******@newsfep 2-win.server.ntli .net>: [snip]
Some say "design so that resolution doesn't matter". But that is
hard when images are being provided, whether GIF (or whatever)
diagrams, or JPEG photographs. Hard decisions have to be made - they
are not flexible like text


We've been down this road before. I can only conclude, to my
surprise, that you don't read what we write.


I did read what you wrote. I've been puzzled how a clearly intelligent person
could say something so obviously wrong! But I now think I know why we are
disagreeing over this.

The clue is in the following. Perhaps I should have worked out what you meant
in earlier posts.
If the CONTENT itself is 800 pixels wide, then there is nothing you
can do to make that fit 640. That has nothing what so ever to do
with the RESOLUTION on the client's monitor. [snip] Same thing. If the CONTENT is x number of pixels, then it IS x
number of pixels. There is nothing contradictory about this.

[snip]

Where do you think those 800 pixels came from? Who decided they were 800
pixels, not 500 or 10,000? That material didn't float down from outer space
fixed at that size!

The simple answer is: I decided to make that material 800 pixels wide based on
a prediction of the resolutions of the monitors of my target audience!
(Actually, I tend to use 700 - because much of my target audience still uses
800 x 600 monitors, but hardly any still use 640 x 480, as far as I know).

I believe from statements of yours such as the above that you are discussing
the specific topic of the nature of the HTML and the CSS put onto the web. You
advocate not building into that HTML (and possibly CSS) anything to do with
the expected resolution of the audience's monitors.

But I am discussing the full authoring process from conception up to that
material on the web. There must be a dozen different decisions I have had to
make according to my analysis of the nature of the target audience, and the
technology they use. Many of those decisions later appear within what the
(dumb) HTML thinks is content. Although, of course, the HTML will have tags
within it such as <img src="..." width="..." height="..." alt="...">. Here are
examples of my attempts to understand the nature of my target audiences and
their technologies:

- The first example is actually a case where I know my material is not
suitable for all of the audience I actually want to reach. I write in English.
Some of the my ideal audience doesn't understand it. On-line translators often
don't do a good job on my material. I have largely given up on that issue. I
just use <html lang="en"> so at least it is explicit.

- When deciding what size of charts and graphs to use for one of my web sites,
I found that the best size giving adequate image quality would not fit on a
640 x 480 screen. I decided not to (for example) go for a poorer version, or
for 2 or more sizes, because I judged that few people would be using that size
of screen. I check that pages with charts & graphs on look OK on an 800 x 600
screen, but don't spend a second worrying about smaller screens anymore. Nor
do I worry about people who don't maximise their windows. They can adapt or
whatever they choose.

- I wondered whether I needed to use "web safe" colours in charts and graphs.
How many colours can people distinguish adequately on their screens? At first
I did try to use web safe colours. Now I don't. I believe, from what I've
read, and from the PCs in public libraries, that the need to do so has largely
passed. If not - well that's tough!

- My photographs were designed for monitors with at least 24-bit colour. After
a lot of discussion and checking, it appeared best to use sRGB colour space,
even though many viewers wouldn't be set up for that. At least it passed the
problem of colour balance over to them!

- Photograph sizes were chosen on 2 grounds. Monitor resolution and internet
connection rates. My photography site has 2 sizes for each photograph, one
that fits into a 500 x 500 pixel box and is typically less than 50 KB, the
other that fits into a 700 x 700 box and is typically less than 100 KB. This
appeared to be the best compromise after lots of discussion. with people with
different combinations of technologies.

- But another web site had a bit more text, and a bit less emphasis on the
photographs, so I standardised on a 700 x 500 box. This saves me effort.

- Even the text content is designed with the target audience in mind (of
course). When it accompanies complex graphs, etc, I have tended not to worry
much about fog factors and Flesch scores. But for a wider audience, I check
and try to control those. (What I actually do is put it into Word and use its
checker - but I think it is based on those theories).

- When my content is a document in word-processor format, I used to use RTF
because is was pretty general. Now it appears that the people who will use
such material can handle Word format, so that is what I use.

- When my content is a calculator, I use Excel. But although many of my target
audience do indeed have Excel, it turns out that some of them don't have the
latest version, so I save it as a mixed version to reach the maximum number of
Excel users in my audience. I don't intend to cater for people without Excel,
except to supply my spreadsheets to advice organisations.

- My Word documents sometimes contain colour, for example in charts and
graphs. My investigation showed that, (even if the users could see colours),
they would occasionally print them on a black-and-white printer, but more
often than that would use a black-and-white photo-copier. So I include
assistive text to guide the reader through a B&W version.

- How should I specify email addresses in the material? Some users in public
libraries can't use the "mailto:" link. But others can. So I provide it for
those that can, and leave the others to fend for themselevs.

That is 11 different decisions, and there are plenty more. The full authoring
task, of which developing the final HTML and CSS is just one part, needs a
pretty good understanding of the users and the technologies they will be using
to handle the material. And sometimes the same understanding carries through
to 2 or more different areas. For example, if a page has a 700 pixel
photograph on it, the descriptive text has a width (currently) of 600 set in
the CSS. It doesn't adapt to the screen/window. For stylistic reasons, I want
it to be a little narrower than the photograph.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Jul 20 '05 #43
Tina Holmboe wrote:
"Barry Pearson" <ne**@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> exclaimed in
<YB************ @newsfep1-gui.server.ntli .net>:
been if it had talked about 640 x 480 screens? Is there any
plausible reason for any web site developer to spend an extra minute
thinking about the issues of VGA screens? In many cases, I suggest
not. Which suggests that we are


No, there is no plausible reason for any web site developer to
spend any extra time thinking about any resolution.

[snip]

I have replied to another of your articles, showing where the authoring
process often needs an investigation and analysis of the audience's monitor
resolution.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Jul 20 '05 #44
Jonathan Snook wrote:
"Brian" <us*****@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in
message news:cy6fb.4825 36$Oz4.327033@r wcrnsc54...
There is no extra cost to creating a site that works on every
resolution. Why do you keep insisting that there is?


really? so, your site will work great on my PDA? all your images will
show without horizontal scroll?

Would you recommend that a site about photography have all images
sized to work on a PDA? What about a cell phone? Is that practical? I
think not. I would drop your site in a minute on my 1600x1200 screen.


Precisely!

I think Tina and Brian are looking at the specific issue of how the final HTML
& CSS is written, and not looking at the end-to-end authoring process. That
needs to take such questions as yours into account. (This is a bit of a
puzzle, because Brian has put up a very nice photographic web site for an
excellent photographer!)

In the rather narrow scope of their discussion, they have a point. In the
scope of web authoring in general, things are much more complicated.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Jul 20 '05 #45
Brian wrote:
Barry Pearson wrote:

[snip]
We may never be certain - either way. So we deal with uncertainty
in the various ways that businesses deal with uncertainty daily.


We are stuck with uncertainty about the hardware and software profiles
of a site's would-be visitors. That's the only thing we of which can
be certain. Knowing that, isn't it prudent to not shut any of them
out?


I have replied about all the sorts of decisions that I find need some
understand if the nature of my target audience and the technologies they use.
Some principles of marketing have served us well outside the web.


I've never been too keen on marketing types. They use a lot of
resources for no measurable gain.


Gosh! We will simply have to differ on that.
It is obvious that we don't need to serve everyone in the world. We
need to understand who we DO need to serve, and the trade-offs
between extra cost v. extra customers.


There is no extra cost to creating a site that works on every
resolution. Why do you keep insisting that there is?

[snip]

I've shown in the other article that there is cost involved. It isn't whether
it "works" in the sense that there isn't even anything visible at some
resolutions. It is a matter of whether the content can be shown satisfactorily
on various resolutions. Content often needs to be designed with a resolution,
and even an internet access speed, in mind.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Jul 20 '05 #46
Barry Pearson wrote:
Tina Holmboe wrote:
"Barry Pearson" <ne**@childsupp ortanalysis.co. uk> exclaimed in
<0g********** *********@newsf ep2-win.server.ntli .net>:
Some say "design so that resolution doesn't matter". But that is
hard when images are being provided, whether GIF (or whatever)
diagrams, or JPEG photographs. Hard decisions have to be made - they
are not flexible like text


We've been down this road before. I can only conclude, to my
surprise, that you don't read what we write.


I did read what you wrote.


But you don't acknowledge anything we write. You just keep asserting
that designing for one resolution is a choice one must make, even at
the expense of other resolutions. As we *keep* pointing out to you,
designing for no resolution is also a choice, and the best one at that.
Where do you think those 800 pixels came from?
You made an arbitrary decision to design for that resolution.
The simple answer is: I decided to make that material 800 pixels wide based on
a prediction of the resolutions of the monitors of my target audience!
Voila. (BTW, your prediction is nothing more than a wild guess.)
I believe from statements of yours such as the above that you are discussing
the specific topic of the nature of the HTML and the CSS put onto the web.
Of course we are. What else would we discuss in ciwas? (You do know
what each of those letters stands for, right?)
- The first example is actually a case where I know my material is not
suitable for all of the audience I actually want to reach. I write in English.
Some of the my ideal audience doesn't understand it. On-line translators often
don't do a good job on my material. I have largely given up on that issue. I
just use <html lang="en"> so at least it is explicit.
Still refuse to distinguish between content and presentation, I see.
<sigh> This is pointless.
My photography site has 2 sizes for each photograph, one
that fits into a 500 x 500 pixel box and is typically less than 50 KB, the
other that fits into a 700 x 700 box


This is not ciwa-photoediting. The size of an image is not related to
designing a page for any particular resolution.

[remainder snipped]

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #47
Jonathan Snook wrote:
"Brian" <us*****@mangym utt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote in message
news:cy6fb.4825 36$Oz4.327033@r wcrnsc54...
There is no extra cost to creating a site that works on every
resolution. Why do you keep insisting that there is?
really?


Really.
so, your site will work great on my PDA?
Given the constraints of the content, yes.
all your images will show without horizontal scroll?
Are you confusing screen size with resolution? Why?
Would you recommend that a site about photography have all images sized to
work on a PDA?
images on a photography site = content
With a photography site, where images are the content, one may or may
not be able to provide additional content for different sized display
devices. Just as, with a text site, one may or may not be able to
provide additional translations of the documents. Now, what has this
to do with resolution?
What about a cell phone? Is that practical? I think not.


Before getting huffy, try putting together a coherent argument.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #48

"B McDonald" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:Wj******** *********@newss vr32.news.prodi gy.com...
There is no extra cost to creating a site that works on every
resolution. Why do you keep insisting that there is?


Scratch what I said. Reading later posts I can see that I missed the point
of this screen size/screen res. issue.

Brian
Jul 20 '05 #49
Brian wrote:
Barry Pearson wrote:

[snip]
Where do you think those 800 pixels came from?


You made an arbitrary decision to design for that resolution.

[snip]

No. I made a decision based on the predicted resolution of my target audience.
That followed a lot of discussion, research across the web, studying of what
other people in similar situations were doing, and trial and error.

It is important to do suitable analysis when developing inherently visual
material for publishing the the web. How else would you expect image sizes to
be chosen? How could I, or anyone else, decide whether a photograph size of
700 x 500 or 1024 x 768 is the one to go for? (Or the size of a chart of a
graph). The size has to come from somewhere!

The decision HAS to be made - it can't be ignored. At some point, just about
every photographer publishing on the web has to decide " how many pixels wide
& high should my photographs be?"

The decision HAS to be a good one one, because so much depends on it. It
determines whether it will fit on a screen or have to be scrolled (which is
pretty bad). It determines how much of the sceen it will occupy. It will
determine the download time.

How would YOU decide how big to make your photographs?

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Jul 20 '05 #50

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