There's a new beta of the W3C Markup Validation Service now live at
<URL:http://validator.w3.or g:8001/>
Probably the most important change is verbose output, including attempts
to explain the validator errors. Other changes include improved
display of error messages, and a choice of parse modes.
Currently - but probably not for long - it includes an
"interestin g" default setting!
Some of the changes have been the subject of much debate. We need
to widen that to include users: please tell us what you like or
dislike in the new service! Quick feedback may catch Terje while
he's still hacking this release:-)
As always, problem and bug reports are welcome, but please check
first whether they're already known.
--
Nick Kew
In urgent need of paying work - see http://www.webthing.com/~nick/cv.html 24  3141 
Jim Ley wrote: On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:11:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote:
ni**@fenris.w ebthing.com (Nick Kew) wrote:
First of all - well done and thanks for the efforts all of you have put into
this.
This beta release has been defaulted to an extended mode as an
oversight, that's clearly wrong, do you feel a fussy mode should not
exist?
There's certainly benefit in a fussy mode. Whether that should still fall
under the naming of "validator" is a different question. I certainly don't
feel qualified to answer that question.
An SGML validator certainly, is the CSS validator also useless? If
you don't like the non-technical use of validator, what do you propose
such a QA tool be called?
Quality Assist. QA Assist. Its tools about improving the Quality of the
markup, so why not focus on the Quality aspect. Businesses tend to like
words like Quality.
Yes the beta is wrong to claim valid document invalid, yes the beta is
wrong to default to fussy mode - I think everyone has acknowledged
that. Do you see anything else wrong in the beta you could report?
Nothing wrong, but confused me a bit:
<http://validator.w3.or g:8001/check?uri=http% 3A%2F%2Fwww.iso lani.co.uk%2Fbl og%2F&verbose=1 &fussy=1>
(Validating my blog page)
I'm a little surprised that the "unescaped" & in the main text went
unnoticed by validation - but I'm glad the new fussy checker picked it up
(Multiple occurrances of Marks & Spencer within the text). It is probably
more my lack of understanding of what a validator checks rather than the
tool itself - but its good enough to convince me of the benefits of a fussy
checker.
Good work!
--
Iso.
FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/ ji*@jibbering.c om (Jim Ley) wrote: Yes the beta is wrong to claim valid document invalid, yes the beta is
wrong to default to fussy mode - I think everyone has acknowledged
that.
So why hasn't it been fixed? And how _did_ they manage to make such
elementary errors? If you ask me, it was just the culmination of the
approach that created "fussy mode" in the first place.
Do you see anything else wrong in the beta you could report?
Should I report something else than the fact that all the announced new
features are nonsense?
We would have needed a good tag soup checker years ago. Turning a
validator to a very one-sided tag soup checker helps nobody.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:12:49 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote: ji*@jibbering. com (Jim Ley) wrote:
Yes the beta is wrong to claim valid document invalid, yes the beta is
wrong to default to fussy mode - I think everyone has acknowledged
that.
So why hasn't it been fixed?
Hmm, QA processes suggest to me that fixes should be tested first,
before being rolled out onto production machines, the beta validator
does run on the same machine as the real validator, so hack and patch
as you go probably isn't particularly wise is it?
And how _did_ they manage to make such
elementary errors?
Elementary errors as what, defaulting to a wrong mode, that's pretty
simple to do surely? The text of the message saying valid - well one
word can easily be overlooked, it is mostly aesthetic when you know
what you actually mean, I can at least understand both bugs creeping
in with my authoring processes, which is why we have betas etc.
Do you see anything else wrong in the beta you could report?
Should I report something else than the fact that all the announced new
features are nonsense?
Of course not, you very right to report the problems here. I was
asking if you had seen any other issues.
We would have needed a good tag soup checker years ago. Turning a
validator to a very one-sided tag soup checker helps nobody.
What do you mean by "one sided" ?
Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/ ji*@jibbering.c om (Jim Ley) wrote: We would have needed a good tag soup checker years ago. Turning a
validator to a very one-sided tag soup checker helps nobody.
What do you mean by "one sided" ?
It apparently applies a collection of simple syntactic rules, generally
aimed at tag verbosity in XHTML style, trying to force them upon HTML,
and generating cascades of "error messages". There's surely much else
that could and should be checked in HTML markup.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:30:12 +0200, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@mail.c ern.ch> wrote: I think the problem here is that - as long as there have been people
who took the W3C's assertion "HTML is an application of SGML" in any
way seriously - the term "validator" has had a specific technical
meaning, namely the meaning which it inherits from SGML.
Yes, and within that scope it's fine, but I don't fully agree that the
W3 has been within that scope for some time, nor is it particularly
useful for it to be, no-one has been taking the application of SGML
seriously because there's too many holes in that.
So, within the scope of its
implementati on limitations, it gives an unambiguous answer, and all
validators must give the same answer, even if they express it in
different words.
Certainly, which is all a default v.w3.org should do, having more
useful QA options is a good thing, I feel and think Jukka is being
much too negative in his criticism, by suggesting to me that the
entire process is flawed. I'd love to see some alternative QA
approach that didn't use Jukka's "one-sided" approach, I believe
linting of attributes is pencilled in for a 0.7.0 release of v.w3.org.
These sort of things are useful, if you want a validator you've got
one, web authors though need QA tools, not pointless pedantry on HTML
origins.
Criticise the defaults, criticise the claim that it's invalid, they're
horrible bugs *, but I'd like to see the idea of web-QA taken
seriously, SGML validation doesn't do that.
but I *would* like to see the distinction made more clearly, that's
all I'm saying.
I agree, much of the supporting commentary isn't there yet.
Jim.
* I'm beginning to wonder if the fussy default wasn't a bug but an
intentional way to get the beta talked about and looked at, but I
don't actually think Terje is quite that mad.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/
Andreas Prilop schrieb:
Isofarro <sp*******@spam detector.co.uk> wrote:
There's certainly benefit in a fussy mode.
What exactly is a "fussy mode"?
It's explained in the announcement:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2003Aug/0105.html>
Matthias
In article <ms***********@ sidious.isolani .co.uk>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of Isofarro <sp*******@spam detector.co.uk> wrote: Nick Kew wrote:
There's a new beta of the W3C Markup Validation Service now live at
<URL:http://validator.w3.or g:8001/>
This URL doesn't display any of the form elements in Konqueror 3.0.0 on Suse
8.0:
http://www.isofarro.freeserve.co.uk/temp/w3val.png
Not sure why - possibly the fieldset and legend need to be inside the form
elements?
I've seen Konq 3 on deadrat 7.3 do that with fieldset. I'd say that's a
serious bug (Konq 2.2 is better). If only I had the time and kit to hack
browsers ....
--
Nick Kew
In urgent need of paying work - see http://www.webthing.com/~nick/cv.html
Nick Kew wrote: In article <ms***********@ sidious.isolani .co.uk>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of Isofarro <sp*******@spam detector.co.uk> wrote: This URL doesn't display any of the form elements in Konqueror 3.0.0 on
Suse 8.0:
http://www.isofarro.freeserve.co.uk/temp/w3val.png
Not sure why - possibly the fieldset and legend need to be inside the
form elements?
I've seen Konq 3 on deadrat 7.3 do that with fieldset. I'd say that's a
serious bug (Konq 2.2 is better). If only I had the time and kit to hack
browsers ....
FWIW, the same browser on the same OS used to crash on
<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/> which did not impress me in the least. 3.1.3
has been much better except for one rather annoying bug (always-present
horizontal scrollbar).
--
Shawn K. Quinn This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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