Problem with arial and curly quotes

[Haines Brown]

I tried changing font-family from helvetica to arial and discovered
that I loose typographic quotes, etc. (for example, if I have “
in a page, the double opening quotation mark is not curly).

The reason for trying arial was that I understood it was easier
reading, although I still find helvetica easier (what is the
consensus, if any, on this issue?).

I suspect that arial uses Microsoft's 1252 code page and so does not
make “ typographic, but straight.

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM

[Andreas Prilop]

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006, Haines Brown wrote:

I tried changing font-family from helvetica to arial and discovered
that I loose typographic quotes, etc. (for example, if I have “
in a page, the double opening quotation mark is not curly).

It only *seems* so when the font size is too small.
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nht...mp/quotes.html

[Bergamot]

Haines Brown wrote:

>
The reason for trying arial was that I understood it was easier
reading,

That's highly subjective. Easier than what?

--
Berg

[VK]

Haines Brown wrote:

I tried changing font-family from helvetica to arial and discovered
that I loose typographic quotes, etc. (for example, if I have “
in a page, the double opening quotation mark is not curly).

"curly quotes" historically have a number of numeric representations ,
see for instance
<http://en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/Quotation_mark# Quotation_marks _in_English>.

This way never use "numeric entities" for them but only HTML entities
&lsquo; and &rsquo; (single) and &ldquo; &rdquo; (double)

In XSLT templates define them in internal DTD subset by their Unicode
values

The reason for trying arial was that I understood it was easier
reading, although I still find helvetica easier (what is the
consensus, if any, on this issue?).

You must be confusing something. Helvetica is a traditional fall-back
font for non-Windows platforms:
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
or (to be politically correct :-)
font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;

On Windows platforms Helvetica is not presented unless additionally
installed.

[Andreas Prilop]

On 2 Nov 2006, VK wrote:

Helvetica is a traditional fall-back
font for non-Windows platforms:
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
or (to be politically correct :-)
font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;

This has nothing to do with "political correctness". Since Arial
is installed on almost every computer (comes even with Solaris 9),
it is pointless to put Arial in the first place.

[VK]

Since Arial

is installed on almost every computer (comes even with Solaris 9),
it is pointless to put Arial in the first place.

IMHO that is a reverse logic: the point of providing a list of fonts is
to keep the page uniform across the maximum of environments. Exactly
because Arial is the most expected, it should go first. On older Mac's
w/o IE installed and older Ux'es we'll try to use something we know to
be visually close to Arial. If still no luck then the system default
whatever it will be.

[Andreas Prilop]

On 2 Nov 2006, VK wrote:

IMHO that is a reverse logic: the point of providing a list of fonts is
to keep the page uniform across the maximum of environments.

No, why? If you write a novel, how could you assure that every
reader has the same imaginations? You cannot. That's the difference
between a novel and a movie.

If you need something "uniform across the maximum of environments",
then use PDF.

Exactly because Arial is the most expected, it should go first.

If you put Arial first, then you don't need any other typeface
thereafter.

[Felix Miata]

On 2006/11/02 14:16 (GMT) Haines Brown apparently typed:

I tried changing font-family from helvetica to arial ...
The reason for trying arial was that I understood it was easier
reading, although I still find helvetica easier...

Helvetica is traditionally a bitmap font on Linux, and thus makes a poor
first choice if any of your visitors use any but the newest Linux
distros, which generally alias Helvetica to a scalable font. If you're
running a recent Linux, odds are you're not seeing Helvetica when you
think you should be.
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/Font/f...ca.html#bitmap
--
"Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven."
Matthew 5:12 NIV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/

[VK]

No, why? If you write a novel, how could you assure that every

reader has the same imaginations? You cannot. That's the difference
between a novel and a movie.

You have lost me here... Are you trying to say that a web-page layout
is a novel for one reader (aka author)? Like
font-family: "The Only Font Matching The Concept Of This Site", "I
don't care If Anyone Else Has It", sans-serif;
?

As runtime font installation is still supported by IE only, there is no
much sense to search for some very particular font on your own machine.
You have to think what font or at least what typeface would be the most
expected web-wise. "Most expected" - not "guaranteed to be presented".

If you need something "uniform across the maximum of environments",
then use PDF.

A .png image map would be more reliable IMHO (no Adove Viewer
required). Sometimes I feel like jump on the idea.
:-)

Exactly because Arial is the most expected, it should go first.

If you put Arial first, then you don't need any other typeface
thereafter.

Did you inspect all machines in my target auditory? Arial is a
commercial font, not a public domain one, however widely used it is.
Unless you have any of Microsoft products installed or some of printer
packages (purchased with the printer), or unless you separately paid
for this font and installed it: unless that how and where did you get
it?

[Haines Brown]

Felix Miata <Ug************ ********@dev.nu lwrites:

On 2006/11/02 14:16 (GMT) Haines Brown apparently typed:

>I tried changing font-family from helvetica to arial ...
The reason for trying arial was that I understood it was easier
reading, although I still find helvetica easier...

Helvetica is traditionally a bitmap font on Linux, and thus makes a poor
first choice if any of your visitors use any but the newest Linux
distros, which generally alias Helvetica to a scalable font. If you're
running a recent Linux, odds are you're not seeing Helvetica when you
think you should be.
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/Font/f...ca.html#bitmap

Your citation was very interesting. So when I say I find helvetica
easy reading, what I'm really seeing is Nimbus on my Linux system.

Someone suggested that the typographic quotes only look straight, and
indeed that is so. Arial on my system rather compresses things so that
the curly quote looks close to a simple vertical line.

I had heard that arial was easier for reading from the monitor compared
to, say, helvetica and sans-serif. I became concerned because when I
changed some text from serif (Times?) to sans-serif (Arial), I found
it difficult to read, but when I choose helvetica (nimbus), it seemed
much easier.

--

Haines Brown, KB1GRM