Does CSS Suck?

[Bill Norton]

Over at PCMag.com there is a debate going on over the usability of CSS. The
discussion was initiated by an article by John Dvorak called "Why CSS Bugs
Me" (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1987181,00.asp). The discussion
starts here:
http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/1/10...spx#1004331343.

Someone suggested that some of you folks might have a thing or two to say
about the topic, so I'm inviting everyone to drop by and give their
thoughts.

May I suggest that you not spend too much effort or attention on the Dvorak
article per se, since it's one of the more poorly written posts.

The upshot of it all is that there seem to be a lot of people - myself
included - who feel that CSS is seriously flawed, maybe even fatally flawed.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Wes Groleau wrote:

And if you are in the minority that refuses to cater
to IE's bugs, the general public assumes your website
is crap, never knowing it's their browser.

I suspect that the "general public" has no real idea what a browser
is. MesSIE is just there, a component of their OS, and it's what they
use for "exploring the internet". Note that it doesn't call itself
"web explorer", nor could it honestly do so, if only because it
deliberately violates some of the mandatory requirements of the
applicable specifications.

Nevertheless: if one doesn't fool around with over-complex HTML and
CSS, it's usually feasible to design *for* a web-compatible browser,
and not need to change too much to get it displayed acceptably with
IE6, at least.

It wouldn't satisfy the pixel-exact DTP freaks - but they don't
understand designing for the web, anyway.

regards

[Jack]

Matt wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:40:43 -0400, Harlan Messinger wrote:

>Jack wrote:

>>Spartanicus wrote:
Like most discussions on web fora the quality of the discussion
is poor, I gave up after reading a few pages.
It's regrettable that web-forums (sick)

"Sick"?

I think he meant "sic" (TICBW).

From Wikipedia: | Sic is a Latin word meaning "thus", "so", or "just
as that". In writing, | it is italicized and placed within square
brackets — [sic] — to | indicate that an incorrect or unusual
spelling, phrase, or other | preceding quoted material is a verbatim
reproduction of the quoted | original and is not a transcription
error.

The plural of "forum" is either "fora" or "forums", Jack clearly
prefers "fora".

"Forum" is an english word; the plural is "forums". I sense that I am
being teased.

--
Jack.
http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

[Jack]

Harlan Messinger wrote:

Jack wrote:

>Spartanicus wrote:

>>>
Like most discussions on web fora the quality of the discussion is
poor, I gave up after reading a few pages.

It's regrettable that web-forums (sick)

"Sick"?

It was meant to be an ironic reference to "fora".

--
Jack.
http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

[Harlan Messinger]

Jack wrote:

Matt wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:40:43 -0400, Harlan Messinger wrote:

>>Jack wrote:
Spartanicu s wrote:
Like most discussions on web fora the quality of the discussion
is poor, I gave up after reading a few pages.
It's regrettable that web-forums (sick)
"Sick"?

I think he meant "sic" (TICBW).

From Wikipedia: | Sic is a Latin word meaning "thus", "so", or "just
as that". In writing, | it is italicized and placed within square
brackets — [sic] — to | indicate that an incorrect or unusual
spelling, phrase, or other | preceding quoted material is a verbatim
reproduction of the quoted | original and is not a transcription
error.

The plural of "forum" is either "fora" or "forums", Jack clearly
prefers "fora".

"Forum" is an english word; the plural is "forums". I sense that I am
being teased.

"Fora" is also recognized by the on-line Merriam-Webster and American
Heritage dictionaries.

[Toby Inkster]

Jack wrote:

"Forum" is an english word; the plural is "forums". I sense that I am
being teased.

"Fora" and "Forums" are both acceptable plurals for "forum".

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

[Wes Groleau]

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

Nevertheless: if one doesn't fool around with over-complex HTML and
CSS, it's usually feasible to design *for* a web-compatible browser,
and not need to change too much to get it displayed acceptably with
IE6, at least.

Yes, but the majority I was speaking of don't understand HTML or CSS,
so they use "WYSIWYG" tools that DO generate over-complex HTML and
often embed the same CSS commands over and over and over.

It wouldn't satisfy the pixel-exact DTP freaks - but they don't
understand designing for the web, anyway.

Well, the website I'm responsible for wouldn't satisfy
the purists (it uses a table for that part of the formatting
that isn't portable in CSS). But it's simple and maintainable
and looks almost the same on every browser. It's not "designed
for the web" in the way I think you mean, but I didn't design it.

(I RE-designed it to be simple and maintainable--it was
most unpleasant under the hood--while trying to keep the
look they had already approved.)

I have some ideas on ways I might make it better, while still
keeping the owners happy, but time is limited.

--
Wes Groleau
-----------
I've been framed! ...
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html

[Wes Groleau]

>>It's regrettable that web-forums (sick)

"Sick"?

It was meant to be an ironic reference to "fora".

Sick is what you become with overexposure to web-flora.

--
Wes Groleau

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you
what can't be done and why. Then do it.
-- Robert A. Heinlein

[Kurt Kroon]

On 8/1/06 11:03 AM, in article ea************* ******@news.dem on.co.uk,
"Jack" <mr*********@no spam.jackpot.uk .netwrote:

"Forum" is an english word; the plural is "forums". I sense that I am
being teased.

From http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=forum

Forum

1460, "place of assembly in ancient Rome," from L[atin] forum "marketplac e"
apparently akin to foris, foras "out of doors, outside." Sense of "assembly,
place for public discussion" first recorded 1690.

Since this English word comes from a Latin word, the Latin plural -- fora --
is technically correct.

Then again, nobody ever said English (especially the Usenet dialect) was
"technicall y correct" -- if it were, we would say "octopodes" instead of
"octopuses" .

I could go on and on ... but I won't.

Kurtis
------
Your mileage may vary. Please keep hands and feet inside the car at all
times. Not a flotation device.

[Santos L Halper]

pretty dumb thing to say considering 9 out of 10 posts here sound like "it
works in IE but not FF"

people like you use firefox because somewhere along the line you were told
microsoft is bad... theyre taking over the world... bill gates is satan....
everything should be free and open source.

thats ridiculous.

firefox is what happens when you dont have a highly paid QA department. a
browser with more bugs and flaws than IE ever had

"axlq" <ax**@spamcop.n etwrote in message
news:ea******** **@blue.rahul.n et...

In article <yj************ ******@tornado. texas.rr.com>,
Bill Norton <bn*****@austin .rr.comwrote:

>>The upshot of it all is that there seem to be a lot of people - myself
included - who feel that CSS is seriously flawed, maybe even fatally
flawed.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

CSS isn't flawed, and it doesn't suck. What sucks is Microsoft's
implementation of it. That alone is *the* cause of *my* grief
concerning CSS. If nobody ever used IE for browsing again, CSS
would be a beautiful thing to use. But with IE around, it becomes a
mess of ugly hacks.

-A

[Santos L Halper]

another genius

"TomB" <to************ *@gmail.comwrot e in message
news:11******** **************@ i42g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com.. .

>
axlq wrote:

>CSS isn't flawed, and it doesn't suck. What sucks is Microsoft's
implementati on of it. That alone is *the* cause of *my* grief
concerning CSS. If nobody ever used IE for browsing again, CSS
would be a beautiful thing to use. But with IE around, it becomes a
mess of ugly hacks.

Then don't use the hacks. Ignore the fact that IE users can't see your
page properly. If everyone would do that, eventually people will get
sick and tired of that shitty piece of software and use the
alternatives.

What a wonderful world :-)