28  9082 
Thai is unusual in that it uses spaces between sentences, but no spaces
within sentences.
Breaking between words is done by some combination of a dictionary and
an algorithm that can recognise where a word ends (don't ask me for
details, I am not a programmer). This requires support from the
operating system. Pre-Unicode, there was a special Thai edition of
Windows. With Unicode, Thai support is built in to Windows (though not
necessarily installed by default).
Applications need to use the OS' support for Thai in order to break
between words. This works in recent browsers and in Word for Windows.
It does not work in Word 2004 because Microsoft have not yet made use
of the Thai support in Mac OS X 10.3.
--
Alan Wood http://www.alanwood.net (Unicode, special characters, pesticide names)
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: But on my system at least (Win98, with Tahoma probably as shipped with
Windows), Tahoma does not contain U+200B. Instead, a square is
displayed.
That's why fonts have a version number, too :-) The character set of
Tahoma has been enlarged with every Windows version. The version that
comes with Windows XP/2003 covers all extended Arabic characters and
is therefore well suited for all languages that use the Arabic script.
However, the context was browsing of the Thai writing system,
I'm afraid I have missed that part of the discussion.
Yes, it was hidden in personal e-mail between Alan and me :-)
Magic? I was able to reduce this to
foo<span dir="rtl">*</span>bar
and the same trick works for as well.
^^^^
Did you mean ZWSP or ZWJ * ?
What about
foo<span dir="rtl"></span>bar
foo*bar
?
--
Mars, unlike Earth, has no atmosphere.
The Chicago manual of style, 15th ed., p. 362
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Andreas Prilop wrote: Jukka: I'm afraid I have missed that part of the discussion.
Yes, it was hidden in personal e-mail between Alan and me :-)
Not entirely: there had been mentions of iso-8859-11 and Thai on
this thread too, although I'm not blaming Jukka for missing it.
Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote: Magic? I was able to reduce this to
foo<span dir="rtl">*</span>bar and the same trick works for
as well. ^^^^
Did you mean ZWSP or ZWJ * ?
I meant ZWSP as I wrote. As far as I understand, ZWJ is a way to
_prevent_ line breaks.
What about
foo<span dir="rtl"></span>bar
Interesting idea (maybe the magic _is_ just in the dir attribute), but
IE seems to completely ignore the span element (as it should) and treat
the above as just
foobar
foo*bar
?
That was among the alternatives I tested, and there * doesn't
work as it should; instead I see roughly
foo|bar
i.e. a bar-like symbol in place of the special character. Adding <span>
markup without dir attribute does not change this. So it seems that the
magic is in the interaction between that attribute and the special
character.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: Magic? I was able to reduce this to
foo<span dir="rtl">*</span>bar and the same trick works for
as well. ^^^^
Did you mean ZWSP or ZWJ * ?
I meant ZWSP as I wrote.
But didn't you write earlier that is displayed as an
empty box?
As far as I understand, ZWJ is a way to _prevent_ line breaks.
No, no! ZWJ and ZWNJ have nothing to do with line breaks.
At least, they shall not; they control the shape of Arabic glyphs.
A preliminary document is here: http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/zwnj.html
--
Mars, unlike Earth, has no atmosphere.
The Chicago manual of style, 15th ed., p. 362
Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote: But didn't you write earlier that is displayed as an
empty box?
Yes, and using <span dir="rtl"></span> prevents that.
As far as I understand, ZWJ is a way to _prevent_ line breaks.
No, no! ZWJ and ZWNJ have nothing to do with line breaks.
(My point above was that I didn't consider ZWJ since it prevents line
breaks instead of permitting them.)
Well, ZWJ _does_ prevent line breaks and ZWNJ allows line breaks where
they wouldn't otherwise be allowed, don't they? They have line breaking
behavior, even if the reason for their existence might be something
different.
MS Word (even Word 2003) seems to generate ZWNJ when I select a line
breaking hint from the Insert/Character/Special characters menu.
This might reflect some older idea of using ZWNJ for such purposes.
And a casual Web author might get the same idea, e.g. because HTML has
‌ (and ‍) but not &zwsp;.
At least, they shall not; they control the shape of Arabic glyphs.
Or joining behavior in general, don't they?
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: No, no! ZWJ and ZWNJ have nothing to do with line breaks.
Well, ZWJ _does_ prevent line breaks and ZWNJ allows line breaks where
they wouldn't otherwise be allowed, don't they?
No! I did refer you already to
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/zwnj.html
which shows (among other things) that ‌ may be part of a
Persian word. Breaking after or before ‌ is not acceptable!
They have line breaking
behavior, even if the reason for their existence might be something
different.
I don't know what you mean by "line breaking behavior". Perhaps you
just mean IE's (broken) behaviour. Please refer to
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr14/#Table1
http://www.unicode.org/Public/4.0-Up...reak-4.0.0.txt
Line breaking before and after U+200C, U+200D is prohibited.
MS Word (even Word 2003) seems to generate ZWNJ when I select a line
breaking hint from the Insert/Character/Special characters menu.
You just demonstrate (again) that Microsoft's programs are broken
as designed.
Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote: I don't know what you mean by "line breaking behavior".
Sorry for my confusion.
Perhaps you
just mean IE's (broken) behaviour.
Well, I guess I mainly confused ZWJ and ZWNJ with zero-width spaces.
Please refer to
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr14/#Table1
http://www.unicode.org/Public/4.0-Up...reak-4.0.0.txt
I stand corrected, but...
Line breaking before and after U+200C, U+200D is prohibited.
....as far as I can see, they are in line breaking class CM, which means
that a line break before the character is prohibited, whereas a line
break after it may or may not be allowed, depending on the next
character. MS Word (even Word 2003) seems to generate ZWNJ when I select a
line breaking hint from the Insert/Character/Special characters
menu.
You just demonstrate (again) that Microsoft's programs are broken
as designed.
Well, it surely looks _very_ odd now, and might explain some of my
difficulties as a book author (when I had tried to help the layout
process with such hints - which might cause serious trouble when
porting data from MS Word to a publishing program).
Luckily IE does not treat ‌ that way. But if you use "Save As Web
page" in MS Word, it actually generates * (= ‌) from a line
breaking hint, as I mentioned, so Microsoft programs aren't quite
compatible even with other Microsoft programs. (This is really not such
a buig surprise.)
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: Line breaking before and after U+200C, U+200D is prohibited.
...as far as I can see, they are in line breaking class CM, which means
that a line break before the character is prohibited, whereas a line
break after it may or may not be allowed, depending on the next
character.
Yes - I tacitly assumed that there are ordinary letters (class AL)
before and after U+200C, U+200D as in my examples. This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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