28  9083 
Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote: Jukka reports on
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/spaces.html
that Internet Explorer 6 fails on the "zero width space" U+200B
.... in "normal" conditions, yes. By "normal" I mean that the font used
is not Arial Unicode MS or Lucida Sans Unicode (or some special font).
It seems to me that the behavior mostly depends on fonts, which in turn
depend on many things. If an author style sheet suggests
font-family: Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode;
then I would say that the great majority of users would see the
document rendered properly in this respect. But such settings may have
drawbacks.
The problem, as I understand it, is this:
- IE 6 (and even IE 4 and IE 5) knows the basic property of U+200B that
a line break is permitted after it
- however it does not know that it has zero width so that the browser
need not render anything for it
- so it uses whatever the font in use has for the character
- and it fails to scan through the available fonts to pick up one that
contains a glyph for the character.
So my practical conclusion is that U+200B is not ready for prime time,
and if it is important to suggest permissible line breaks in a long
string, the nonstandard <wbr> is still the practical solution.
For some additional notes, see http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/nobr.html#zwsp
where I mention that the HTML 4.01 specification explicitly leaves the
rendering of ZWSP (as one of the white space characters for which
rendering is _not_ defined) explicitly undefined.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 21:23:36 +0000, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Jim Ley wrote:
[...] Is it perhaps font related?
Could well be - I'm afraid my understanding of Windows internals
is quite lacking...
The real basic fact is that there is no one single person that knows how
Windows is supposed to work today, not even within MS themselves.
That come as a result of "outsourcin g" for coding works. Most parts of
MS products are today produced in so called low cost countries, India,
Russia, China and every other country that is willing to sell the souls
of their people just to get the money in.
For quite some time back it's all about the money, and protection of the
"monopoly". Heck, MS is in a "full control" position of just about every
hard disk producing company in the world. Proved by the fact that it is
cheaper to buy a new HD with Win-something pre installed than it is to
get the same drive all blank from the start :-)
- most of what I think I've grasped has been done by experimenting.
So have we all, but the target keeps moving around :-)
Allow me to predict (as based on last days "experimenting" ) that, given
the right tool, every and all Win NT/XP user can find at least a 1000
dead entries in his registry data base.
The "registry database" is just another con played on MS users that made
it possible for MS to hide away all the basic idiocy that is buried in
that OP-system.
From what I have found it looks like a garbage dump for both MS and
other applications that gets installed in the Win environment.
I'm pretty sure that this (ab)usage of the "registry database" was not
an original idea of Dave Cutler.
--
Rex
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: It seems to me that the behavior mostly depends on fonts, which in turn
depend on many things. If an author style sheet suggests
font-family: Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode;
then I would say that the great majority of users would see the
document rendered properly in this respect. But such settings may have
drawbacks.
I believe that Tahoma is likely to rate better than L.S.U in this
regard, whereas we shouldn't assume that most people have A.U.MS.
Whereas, if they have a font that's well tuned to their writing
system, then telling MSIE to use any of the above will be a
disservice to them. It's a difficult choice to have to make.
So my practical conclusion is that U+200B is not ready for prime time,
In general I'd have to agree with you. However, the context was
browsing of the Thai writing system, so one might presume that anyone
interested in that would be willing to equip themselves with an
appropriate font and browser settings. The fact that it'll make a
hopeless mess for the rest of us is neither here nor there, since we
can't read it anyway. IMHO and YMMV...
and if it is important to suggest permissible line breaks in a long
string, the nonstandard <wbr> is still the practical solution.
I don't know why that cited Thai page claims that this non-standard
<wbr> is no longer working (for some practical value of the term
"working" ;-)
Mind you, the marker could just as well be <foobar> or <secam>, for
all that most browsers seem to care. Or <x> if you prefer less typing
;-)
For some additional notes, see
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/nobr.html#zwsp
where I mention that the HTML 4.01 specification explicitly leaves the
rendering of ZWSP (as one of the white space characters for which
rendering is _not_ defined) explicitly undefined.
Possibly; but there are hints elsewhere that browsers are expected to
apply appropriate typography for the writing system in use, and
Thai evidently needs this, so it's still on the agenda for browser
implementers, no matter that HTML doesn't demand it in so many words.
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:55:56 +0100, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy .com> wrote: That come as a result of "outsourcin g" for coding works. Most parts of
MS products are today produced in so called low cost countries, India,
Russia, China and every other country that is willing to sell the souls
of their people just to get the money in.
Good, I'm very, very glad that they're using low cost developers,
almost all the problems I've seen with outsourcing has been because of
poor management by the western countries, not low cost developers. It
certainly makes sense for them.
Heck, MS is in a "full control" position of just about every
hard disk producing company in the world. Proved by the fact that it is
cheaper to buy a new HD with Win-something pre installed than it is to
get the same drive all blank from the start :-)
Could you tell me where I get to buy these hard disks? I've never
even seen a hard disk for sale with an operating system on it.
Allow me to predict (as based on last days "experimenting" ) that, given
the right tool, every and all Win NT/XP user can find at least a 1000
dead entries in his registry data base.
I think there's a good chance that any computer user could find 1000
dead lines of config data.
Jim.
--
comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Henri Sivonen wrote: http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/zwsp.tis
After each letter "z" there is a "zero width space". Do you see
an empty box instead?
I see a box in Firefox (trunk) on OS X.
Firefox (Solaris 9) does not display a box - it shows only the letters
and breaks, if necessary, after "z".
The MacThai character set includes the zero width space: http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPIN...APPLE/THAI.TXT
If you don't mind, you might (temporarily) install Thai language
support and see what happens.
I regard the "zero width space" not as a graphic character, but as
a control character like "newline" or "zero width joiner". There's
nothing to display with these characters. What's the point of including
glyphs for "newline" or "zero width space" in a font? Consider a
program that wouldn't do a newline when the font has no glyph for it!
A bit stupid. There's something wrong with programs when they insist
of displaying certain glyphs for the control characters "newline" or
"zero width space".
The mystery is:
How are existing Thai pages written?
Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote: I regard the "zero width space" not as a graphic character, but as
a control character like "newline" or "zero width joiner".
That's a reasonable idea, but Unicode defines it as "separator, space".
There's nothing to display with these characters.
By definition, zero width space has no width but may get expanded in
formatting.
I'd say it's dual: printable _and _control character, in the same sense
as the Ascii space is.
What's the point of
including glyphs for "newline" or "zero width space" in a font?
Regarding "newline", depends on what you mean. A program that
cannot handle Ascii CR and LF is probably so broken that nothing helps.
But the _preferred_ line separator in Unicode is LINE SEPARATOR U+2028,
and support to it in programs is fairly limited. Similar considerations
apply to ZERO WIDTH SPACE: programs might fail to recognize it in any
particular meaning but just try to render it. For such situations, a
fallback, in the form of a glyph shape, would be useful. For zero width
space, an empty zero-width glyph is appopriate. LS is a different issue
(maybe it _should_ look like a special symbol that someone indicates
line separation).
There's something wrong with programs
when they insist of displaying certain glyphs for the control
characters "newline" or "zero width space".
The don't have adequate Unicode support, but who has?
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:41:24 GMT, ji*@jibbering.c om (Jim Ley) wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:55:56 +0100, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsgu y.com> wrote:
That come as a result of "outsourcin g" for coding works. Most parts of
MS products are today produced in so called low cost countries...
Good, I'm very, very glad that they're using low cost developers,
almost all the problems I've seen with outsourcing has been because of
poor management by the western countries, not low cost developers.
It certainly makes sense for them.
It did not mean to imply that low cost developers are doing a bad job,
on the contrary in most cases.
But it's my experience from some 25 years in industrial automation that
the problems of creating a good final product is proportional to the
square of the distance between the point of management and the point of
production. It's not only "poor management" but lots of other criteria's
that comes into this, cultural differences not to be forgotten.
Heck, MS is in a "full control" position of just about every
hard disk producing company in the world. Proved by the fact that it is
cheaper to buy a new HD with Win-something pre installed than it is to
get the same drive all blank from the start :-)
Could you tell me where I get to buy these hard disks? I've never
even seen a hard disk for sale with an operating system on it.
The computer store in the same block where I live could be a good start.
Their arguments for selling pre installed Win drives is that it's
cheaper and I can always go on to reformat the drive myself if I need it
blank.
Sweden has for numbers of years been regarded as being the most Win
populated per capita country in the world. There are political reasons
for this, e.g. private PC's can be had as tax deductible units through
ones own employer. That may have something to do with status of the HD
market here too.
--
Rex [nuf OT for now]
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla .ac.uk> wrote: On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
It seems to me that the behavior mostly depends on fonts, which in
turn depend on many things. If an author style sheet suggests
font-family: Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode;
then I would say that the great majority of users would see the
document rendered properly in this respect. But such settings may
have drawbacks.
I believe that Tahoma is likely to rate better than L.S.U in this
regard, whereas we shouldn't assume that most people have A.U.MS.
But on my system at least (Win98, with Tahoma probably as shipped with
Windows), Tahoma does not contain U+200B. Instead, a square is
displayed.
Whereas, if they have a font that's well tuned to their writing
system, then telling MSIE to use any of the above will be a
disservice to them. It's a difficult choice to have to make.
Indeed. But at least people using MSIE would see the data (assuming the
author has correctly identified the font(s) he suggests so that each of
them contains all the glyphs needed).
In general I'd have to agree with you. However, the context was
browsing of the Thai writing system, so one might presume that
anyone interested in that would be willing to equip themselves with
an appropriate font and browser settings.
I'm afraid I have missed that part of the discussion. Surely for some
specific purposes, we need to make some fair assumptions about the
potential audience.
I don't know why that cited Thai page claims that this non-standard
<wbr> is no longer working (for some practical value of the term
"working" ;-)
Perhaps because Nescape dropped support in some version(s) - but soon
restored it.
Mind you, the marker could just as well be <foobar> or <secam>, for
all that most browsers seem to care. Or <x> if you prefer less
typing ;-)
Do you think so? In my test, foo<foobar>bar gets treated the same way
as foobar.
But now it's time for a really weird observation.
I used MS Word 2000 and inserted (via Insert/Chararacter) a special
character for line break hints (sorry, I just assume they call it that
way in the English version - that's my back-translation), which turns
out to be U+200C ZERO-WIDTH NON-JOINER at least when I save as HTML,
i.e. I get *. Now that's not ZWSP, though similar. But wait...
The HTML that Word spits out contains
<p class=MsoNormal ><span lang=FI>foo</span><span dir=RTL></span><span
lang=AR-SA dir=RTL>*</span><span lang=FI>bar<spa n style=
'letter-spacing:3.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
and while this monstrous, it "works" in the sense that there is no box
or bar in place of the special character; instead it works as an
invisible character that permits a simple line break - _even if_ the
font used does not contain that character.
Magic? I was able to reduce this to
foo<span dir="rtl">*</span>bar
and the same trick works for as well.
Can we declare this an official hack? :-) And should it be more
"semantic", with bdo instead of span?
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote: But on my system at least (Win98, with Tahoma probably as shipped with
Windows), Tahoma does not contain U+200B. Instead, a square is
displayed.
Thus confirming what I keep saying to others, that the name of a font
is no guarantee of its character repertoire, in general.
Mind you, the marker could just as well be <foobar> or <secam>, for
all that most browsers seem to care. Or <x> if you prefer less
typing ;-)
Do you think so?
Not any longer - sorry! I'm sure I tested this, but it may have been
some years back. My apologies for posting that without checking!!
But now it's time for a really weird observation.
[...] Magic? I was able to reduce this to
foo<span dir="rtl">*</span>bar
and the same trick works for as well.
Can we declare this an official hack? :-)
Bizarre. How many other browsers do we have to try it in before
we can confidently recommend it...?
And should it be more "semantic", with bdo instead of span?
I'll save that question for later, if I may ;-) This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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