Why does stylesheet directive not work with FireFox?

[deko]

Firefox will not take the following "font-weight:bold" directive in my
stylesheet. Works fine in IE.

#rightMenuText h5 {
font-weight:bold;
padding-bottom:0px;
padding-top: 10px;
margin-bottom:0px;
}

If you view http://www.clearpointsystems.com in both FF and IE you can see
difference. I've been trying different things, but can't seem to get the
bold font. Is there something wrong with my code? Or is this another quirk
with FF vs. IE?

Here's the (abbreviated) code:

<div id="rightMenu" >
<div id="rightMenuBo dy">
<div id="rightMenuTe xt">
<p>[image]</p>
<h5>Welcome to CSI</h5>
[text]
<h5>Big News!</h5>
[text]
<h5>Security Matters</h5>
[text]
<h5>[more headings]</h5>
[more text]

[Michael Rozdoba]

deko wrote:

I wrote:

In any case, why are you using a level five heading at that point?
What happened to h1 to h4? I'd expect these to be nested before a
recourse to h5.
I thought I might use those other <h> tags somewhere else, so I
picked one that I thought I would not use. Does it matter what it is
if I redefine it?

Not in terms of how it will appear in a browser following your styles,
however... firstly, some won't; secondly, html is much easier to
interpret if the available elements are used to mark up your content's
structure as appropriately as possible & hence are used to convey as
much information about the document structure as possible.

If when you need an h<x> you arbitrarily choose the <x>, you lose the
chance to use that number to tell the reader something specific /about/
the heading required at that point.

By sticking to having a single h1 per page & thereafter ensuring h2 to
h6 are nested in that order, the h<x> at any point now reflects the
degree of subdivision of a document, iyswim?

eg

h1
h2
h2
h3
h4
h3
h4
h2
I thought it was better to us px. That's news to me if it's bad(tm).
Why?

I see others have commented on this ;)

--
Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

[deko]

> You *will* "stop using px" whenever I need to read your page, no

matter what you put into your stylesheet. The harder you try to do
the wrong thing, the greater the probability that the reader will have
to out-vote you. And on the WWW the reader always gets the last word.

This whole argument hinges on one question: Should users be allowed to
adjust the font size in a web page? As long as you don't make things too
small, I don't think its an issue. Folks with poor eyesight will probably
have a monitor resolution setting that accommodates their needs anyway,
without having to adjust font sizes in web pages.

Still, what you've not so eloquently argued is that, yes, people should be
able to adjust the font size in a web page. But you also seem to be saying
that you *will* override my settings if use px. So what difference does it
make? Is it harder for you to adjust the font size when I use px?

I looked for alternate font sizes recently as I was authoring another page.
The code completion feature in Dreamweaver - when coding a stylesheet -
lists font-sizes in px-denominated values and also "large" and "small". I
didn't see any other options in the drop-down list. Call me lazy, but I
didn't look for alternate sizes beyond that.

I can't say I've found anything persuasive enough on Stephen Poley site, or
in your rant, to change something that's been working so well for so long.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, deko wrote:

This whole argument hinges on one question:
Not at all.
Should users be allowed to adjust the font size in a web page?
In our jurisdictions it's illegal to even /try/ to stop them - even
though the attempt is futile, because, in a WWW context, the user
always has the last word anyway.
As long as you don't make things too small,
The author can have no idea what's "too small" for each reader.
Only the reader knows that. Once you've managed to grasp that idea,
everything else falls into place.
I don't think its an issue.
(oh yes you do, or you wouldn't be arguing on this thread.)
Folks with poor eyesight will probably have a monitor resolution
setting that accommodates their needs anyway,
Eh? When readability is an issue, it's best to set the resolution as
high as the display can naturally accommodate, and zoom the material
to suit.
Still, what you've not so eloquently argued is that, yes, people
should be able to adjust the font size in a web page.
Erm, I've merely pointed out that some people /will/ adjust it if they
need to. That's a fact, not an opinion. My *opinion* is that it's a
good idea to take the facts into account when deciding on one's
authoring style. The flexible style of authoring is the one which
best fits the facts.
But you also seem to be saying
that you *will* override my settings if use px.
My normal browser (Mozilla) configuration (for the 135dpi desktop
settings) - when I'm not being asked to critique a page's design -
sets a minimum font size of 15px, so yes, if you ask for anything less
you won't get it. (On the laptop it's 13px).
So what difference does it make? Is it harder for you to adjust the
font size when I use px?
For me, "no": for the majority of MSIE users, "yes".

I'm just trying to guide you to an understanding that asking for
something that's inappropriate to a proportion of your users - trying
to rely on them overriding it (they aren't all as well-informed about
their browser's capabilities as I am, after all) is quite unnecessary,
when there's a size unit (100% or 1em) that achieves its intended
purpose for all of them.
I can't say I've found anything persuasive enough on Stephen Poley
site, or in your rant, to change something
It's OK: your inflexible approach to this topic has been clear from
the start. My participation here wasn't intended for you, it was for
anyone reading this thread who is willing to consider what they're
really doing.
that's been working so well for so long.

If you say so. Bye.

[Jan Roland Eriksson]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:06:55 GMT, "deko" <de**@hotmail.c om> wrote:

[Alan J. Flavell wrote...]

You *will* "stop using px" whenever I need to read your page, no
matter what you put into your stylesheet. The harder you try to do
the wrong thing, the greater the probability that the reader will have
to out-vote you. And on the WWW the reader always gets the last word.

This whole argument hinges on one question: Should users be allowed to
adjust the font size in a web page?

Yes of course!

If I invite a guest into _my_ house I have the right to expect the guest
to accept and follow my house rules.

If I invite your web pabe into _my_ browser I have the right to expect
your page to accept and follow my browsers house rules.

In either case the soultion is simple;

[an invited guest | your web page] breaks my house rules?
then expect to be kicked out in the cold.

[...]

--
Rex

[deko]

> If I invite a guest into _my_ house I have the right to expect the guest

to accept and follow my house rules.

If I invite your web pabe into _my_ browser I have the right to expect
your page to accept and follow my browsers house rules.

In either case the soultion is simple;

[an invited guest | your web page] breaks my house rules?
then expect to be kicked out in the cold.

[deko]

> >This whole argument hinges on one question: Should users be allowed to

adjust the font size in a web page?

Yes of course!

If I invite a guest into _my_ house I have the right to expect the guest
to accept and follow my house rules.

If I invite your web pabe into _my_ browser I have the right to expect
your page to accept and follow my browsers house rules.

In either case the soultion is simple;

[an invited guest | your web page] breaks my house rules?
then expect to be kicked out in the cold.

I'm not sure that's the best analogy. I don't want my page to be 'invited
into a browser'. I want my audience to be able to read the content and use
the resources available on my page. In this way it's like a book or a
magazine. Not everyone can read regular size print. But most people can.
Of course I want to accommodate as wide an audience as possible, and I think
it's a good idea to have adjustable font sizes, but that's something the
browser should do. From a web programmer's perspective, I want a reliable
standard to code against. I don't want Firefox to render things one way, IE
another, and Opera a third. But that's what we have today and that's why
developers are hanging on to px as a standard. My guess is px will remain a
standard and the folks who make the browsers will learn how to adjust it.
Only time will tell.

[C A Upsdell]

deko wrote:

This whole argument hinges on one question: Should users be allowed to
adjust the font size in a web page? As long as you don't make things too
small, I don't think its an issue. Folks with poor eyesight will probably
have a monitor resolution setting that accommodates their needs anyway,
without having to adjust font sizes in web pages.

I can't say I've found anything persuasive enough on Stephen Poley site, or
in your rant, to change something that's been working so well for so long.

Flavell is not ranting. He is giving you good, solid advice. Listen to
him ... and all the others who offer similar advice. Or don't listen to
him, and let your clients wonder why they are losing visitors.

[C A Upsdell]

deko wrote:

I'm not sure that's the best analogy. I don't want my page to be 'invited
into a browser'. I want my audience to be able to read the content and use
the resources available on my page. In this way it's like a book or a
magazine. Not everyone can read regular size print. But most people can.
A web page is not a page from a book. Pages in books have fixed sizes,
with fonts of fixed sizes. Web pages are far more flexible: you have
opportunities with web pages that you don't have with books, including
the ability to offer each reader their choice of page and font size.

Another point is that you delude yourself if you think that you can
control font sizes. In the first places, some browsers (e.g. Firefox)
let the user easily resize your text, even if you specify sizes in
pixels. In the second place, 12px on one display is not necessarily the
same size as 12px on another, so what may be just right for you may be
too large for some, and too small for others ... and might badly break
your site.

And why do you harp on the issue that most people can read regular-size
print? So what? Most people in the US are white, but does that mean
that it is okay to disregard those who are not? The web is much more
diverse that you appear to realize.
Of course I want to accommodate as wide an audience as possible, and I think
it's a good idea to have adjustable font sizes, but that's something the
browser should do. From a web programmer's perspective, I want a reliable
standard to code against. I don't want Firefox to render things one way, IE
another, and Opera a third.

Who are you building your sites for? You, or your clients' visitors?
If you are building a site just for yourself, then fine, go ahead and
try to get total control over page appearance. But if you are building
your sites for your clients' visitors, then you have to serve their
needs, not your wants.

[Harlan Messinger]

deko wrote:

You *will* "stop using px" whenever I need to read your page, no
matter what you put into your stylesheet. The harder you try to do
the wrong thing, the greater the probability that the reader will have
to out-vote you. And on the WWW the reader always gets the last word.

This whole argument hinges on one question: Should users be allowed to
adjust the font size in a web page?

That's like asking if a person reading a book should be allowed to use a
magnifying glass if the print's too small for him to read it without
one, or if he should be allowed to have someone else read the text to
him without also telling him how the text is arranged on the page or
what kinds of borders are used.

As long as you don't make things too small, I don't think its an issue.

Have you never met people who blow text up to characters a centimeter or
larger in order to be able to read them? Have you seen how large the
print is in large-print books published for the visually impaired?

[Harlan Messinger]

deko wrote:

I don't want my page to be 'invited
into a browser'. I want my audience to be able to read the content and use
the resources available on my page.

They won't if they can't, or if it's more trouble for them than it's
worth. Isn't that obvious?