Comparison of DB2 and Oracle?

[Rhino]

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

"Larry E" <la***@nospam.n et> wrote in message
news:Wt******** ************@ne ws4.srv.hcvlny. cv.net...

Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiators that are brought forth here (and their significance).
Excellent point. I was expecting to help him a bit with that part of his
search.
Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.
That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.
This
stuff is almost religious to some people.
That's why I mentioned that I was not trying to start a flame war. Still, I
was quite prepared to ignore obvious zealotry on behalf of one product or
the other.
The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms
There you go; you've just answered Question 2 in my original post. I'm
familiar with Gartner and can probably find a website for them but I'm not
familiar with Mega or Giga at all. Can you suggest some URLs or at least
tell me the full names of these companies so that I can start searching? A
Google search on "Mega" is going to give me a gazillion hits ;-)
- search the tech media for any reviews of each product
Who would you consider the most reputable of the tech media with respect to
this sort of question, database comparisons?
- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table
Absolutely; I had every intention of suggesting that to him but only AFTER
he had done his research FIRST.
By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"

Yeah, I know, that's how it always seems to go with these things. No matter
how dilligently you look at the options, there is always a load of bias and
hype to weed through before you get to something that appears to be
objective truth.

Rhino
Rhino wrote:

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41******** ****@comcast.ne t...

Rhino wrote:
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott justwant some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at whichjobs.
Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer rather than in flames?

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.database s.oracle.server

Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I didn't know that comp.databases. oracle was defunct. It had a few recent on-topic posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I tried that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it is.
Rhino

[Rhino]

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZYQcd.2626 40$MQ5.163157@a ttbi_s52...

Rhino wrote:

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer rather than in flames?
You can't - the exercise as you have it is a little facile. As a
suggestion, why not recommend a process to your friend, rather than just
an outcome. For instance

1) Work out what criteria are most important for you, for the given
situation (for instance, how you evaluate software depends on what you
want to use the software for, and databases can be used for many things
- from simple data management, to high end OLTP, to very, very large
Data Warehouse environments, and even more lately, to Content
Management). Other options such as price, support, market support,
platforms availability etc may also be relevant.

2) Evaluate the different offerings against this criteria. This may
require that you research the product's web site, read the doc, perhaps
even download and try. Definitely talk to each vendors sales
representatives - typically try to get to the more technical sales
consultants. As you go, use the newsgroup to validate your understanding
of what each offering does and does not do, and what you may have been

told.
3) When you come up with a potential best candidate, validate your
decision. Seek references that best match your criteria. Talk to the
technical people in each reference account. Also ask to talk to the
users in each reference account (the two are often at odds as to what is
actually happening).

4) Then choose Oracle :-)

Thank you! Those are all excellent suggestions. (I'm ignoring your 4th
suggestion due to the obvious bias ;-)

Rhino

[Hans Forbrich]

Mark Townsend wrote:

Rhino wrote:

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

I agree Mark. This discussion, in a public forum such as these lists, will
attract the strong supporters and will invariably devolve to a religious
discussion.

First step should be to develop a set of business requirements. Then ask
experts to explain how each product under consideration will satisfy the
requirements.

Then decide based on who you trust! Ultimately both products, as well as
some open source (or soon to be open source - sic), will satisfy many
business requirements.
<Now my religious rant ...>

Don't let anyone tell you that Oracle is the most expensive - that myth
comes from people who buy before they think (or have someone else think for
them) and then avoid or are ignorant of what they have bought. And is
encouraged by each and every competitor.

If used properly, and if you don't re-invent the wheel by using built-in
features and capabilities, the difference in long term cost (between
Oracle, DB2, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQL Server, etc.) is very, very
small.

I happen to prefer Oracle because it provides a lot of functionality in the
database at no additional price - functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

These capabilities may exist in other database managers, but if not (or if
the developer doesn't know/understand how to use them in Oracle) these
capabilities will be duplicated. That moves the money from "product price"
to "developmen t cost" in creating the application and the cost of
supporting the application into the hands of the developer instead of the
'vendor'. (You pay for it somehow <g>)

Aside from that, there _are_ a few technical differences ... I'll leave
those to others.

<end rant>
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases. oracle.server

Copied to comp.databases. oracle.server. Requesting all other threads and
potential replies to this one PLEASE remove cdo and only use cdo.server

Thanks
/Hans

[Larry E]

Rhino wrote:

"Larry E" <la***@nospam.n et> wrote in message
news:Wt******** ************@ne ws4.srv.hcvlny. cv.net...

Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiato rs that are brought forth here (and their significance).

Excellent point. I was expecting to help him a bit with that part of his
search.

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.

That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

This
stuff is almost religious to some people.

That's why I mentioned that I was not trying to start a flame war. Still, I
was quite prepared to ignore obvious zealotry on behalf of one product or
the other.

The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms

There you go; you've just answered Question 2 in my original post. I'm
familiar with Gartner and can probably find a website for them but I'm not
familiar with Mega or Giga at all. Can you suggest some URLs or at least
tell me the full names of these companies so that I can start searching? A
Google search on "Mega" is going to give me a gazillion hits ;-)

Sorry ... it's "Meta Group" not "Mega". My fault.

- search the tech media for any reviews of each product

Who would you consider the most reputable of the tech media with respect to
this sort of question, database comparisons?

Perhaps CMP Media. Info Week, EWeek, Computerworld ...

- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table

Absolutely; I had every intention of suggesting that to him but only AFTER
he had done his research FIRST.

By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"

Yeah, I know, that's how it always seems to go with these things. No matter
how dilligently you look at the options, there is always a load of bias and
hype to weed through before you get to something that appears to be
objective truth.

That's why you're just not gonna get what you're looking for here.

Rhino

Rhino wrote:

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41***** *******@comcast .net...
Rhino wrote:

>This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at
which
jobs.
>

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.
So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful
answer
rather than in flames?

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databa ses.oracle.serv er
Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I
didn't
know that comp.databases. oracle was defunct. It had a few recent
on-topic
posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I
tried
that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it
is.
Rhino

[Serge Rielau]

Hans,

Shame on you! You caved. Even Daniel didn't.
Let's pretend it didn't happen.

Cheers
Serge

[Richard D. Latham]

DA Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> writes:

Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.
Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.
Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information
produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:
1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and
Oracle?
2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to
help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please take your pathetic attempts to some other group. Perhaps
alt.bored.troll .

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

--
#include <disclaimer.std > /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't believe me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham la*****@us.ibm. com

[Hans Forbrich]

Richard D. Latham wrote:

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

Especially the part about not having access to news, but able to monitor
google. I'd have concerns about any consultant who doesn't know how to get
free email such as gmail.google.co m, or use groups.google.c om

I s'pose the might be a legit reason, but ...

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.

That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?

Or do you think you or your imaginary friend are in any position to
evaluate the values of shared-everything vs shared-nothing? How about
the value of procedure code compilation options? Bulk collection?
Multi-version read consistency? Do you really think there is any value
there based on your set-up?

I don't!
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Richard D. Latham wrote:

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

I have an associate that always knows exactly which product to
recommend. The one where he makes the greatest commission. Oh but
then he sells life insurance. ;-)

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Hans Forbrich wrote:

Richard D. Latham wrote:

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

Especially the part about not having access to news, but able to monitor
google. I'd have concerns about any consultant who doesn't know how to get
free email such as gmail.google.co m, or use groups.google.c om

I s'pose the might be a legit reason, but ...

.... like all bait fish ... it smells.

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)