Given that UNIX, including networking, is almost entirely coded in C,
how come so many things are almost impossible in ordinary C? Examples:
Network and internet access, access to UNIX interprocess controls and
communication, locale determination, EBCDIC/ASCII discrimination, etc.
Almost all of these are easy in Perl. Why isn't there a mechanism like
perl modules to allow easy extentions for facilities like these? Isn't
anyone working on this problem? or is it all being left for proprietary
systems?
Sep 2 '08
223  7321 
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 04:48:57 -0700, Pilcrow <pi*****@pp.inf owrote:
>Given that UNIX, including networking, is almost entirely coded in C,
how come so many things are almost impossible in ordinary C? Examples:
Network and internet access, access to UNIX interprocess controls and
communicatio n, locale determination, EBCDIC/ASCII discrimination, etc.
Almost all of these are easy in Perl. Why isn't there a mechanism like
perl modules to allow easy extentions for facilities like these? Isn't
anyone working on this problem? or is it all being left for proprietary
systems?
So many people have accused me of having a hidden agenda that I feel I
should declare my agenda explicitly. I am a man who has had a bit of
programming experience, most recently with Perl, who is now trying to
acquire a working knowledge of C, sufficient to do the kinds of things I
am used to doing with Perl. I ask provocative questions in the attempt
of gaining new knowledge, especially as to the resources available to
the C programmer who is trying not to have to reinvent the wheel, but I
seem to have ruffled some feathers, for which I apologize. Please bear
with me, and be patient.
I already have gotten some answers, such as the existence of the
locale.h header file, which I should have noticed before.
I again apologize to all of you, but C, though faster than Perl, seems
to me very constricting. I am still working my way through K&R2, (and
posting some of my solutions on clc-wiki), so maybe there will be an
epiphany soon. I hope so.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT), ja*********@ver izon.net wrote:
>Pilcrow wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT), ja*********@ver izon.net wrote:
>Pilcrow wrote:
...
>How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
There is no single repository for C libraries which plays the same
role for C that CPAN does for perl, but I would guess that many
why do you have to guess? ...
Because I don't possess enough information to be certain, one way or
the other. Do you? If your question was just rheotorical, as now seems
to be the case, then all you're doing is trolling this newsgroup to
promote perl as a superior alternative to C. I know too much about
perl to fall for that one: perl has a number of advantages over C in
particular contexts, and i use it routinely when those contexts apply,
but it has nowhere near enough advantages to replace C in all
contexts. I wouldn't dream of using it for any of the tasks that I
currently use C for.
>... CPAN is so much integrated with Perl, that
whenever Perl is installed, the access to CPAN (cpan.pm) is
automaticall y included (unless you're installing ActiveState Perl, and a
similar facility is provided there).
I can't figure out what relevance that has to my guesswork. It almost
seems as if you're saying that a C repository cannot count as
"similar" unless access to that repository is automatically installed
when you install your C compiler; but I can't imagine that you're
making such a fatuous suggestion.
>similar repositories do exist for C code. What you're asking about is
mostly a social issue having to do with how CPAN works; it isn't
related to any technical differences between C and perl. Personally,
the repository I have the most familiarity with is sourceforge.net ,
which handles a lot more than just C libraries.
Similar repositories? How do I search them? Do they include
documentatio n? Are they cross-platform compatible?
The only such repository I'm familiar with is sourceforge.net . If you
check out their web site, it's pretty obvious how to search it.
Documentatio n seems to be the norm, not the exception, but I'm sure
that the quality of the documentation is highly variable. I'm sure
that cross-platform compatibility is also highly variable. That's
pretty much unavoidable when source code comes from such a wide
variety of sources.
I apologize. I don't think Perl is superior to C. Every Perl
programmer, however, knows of the existence of CPAN. I was trying to
find how I could find tested solutions in C, similar to the tested
solutions of CPAN, so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel with every
new task. I will try to explore sourceforge more thoroughly, which I
have already used for various utilities.
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:25:09 -0700, Pilcrow posted:
>>The only such repository I'm familiar with is sourceforge.net . If you
check out their web site, it's pretty obvious how to search it.
Documentati on seems to be the norm, not the exception, but I'm sure
that the quality of the documentation is highly variable. I'm sure
that cross-platform compatibility is also highly variable. That's
pretty much unavoidable when source code comes from such a wide
variety of sources.
I apologize. I don't think Perl is superior to C. Every Perl
programmer, however, knows of the existence of CPAN. I was trying to
find how I could find tested solutions in C, similar to the tested
solutions of CPAN, so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel with every
new task. I will try to explore sourceforge more thoroughly, which I
have already used for various utilities.
You're not going to find CPAN here with the unterlanguage. It requires an
ecumenism that doesn't exist for C. Not sure why.
Every time time you "reinvent the wheel," you have to have a caller and a
target. I find that crossing syntax avoids weaknesses in given syntaxes.
Now that I think about it, the first reason for the lack of ecumenism is
history and the second is that there are dozens of competing
implementations of C while perl competes more convincingly for a
narrowslice, like sysadmins.
--
What men value in this world is not rights but privileges. 7
H. L. Mencken
On 3 Sep, 07:47, Ron Ford <r...@example.i nvalidwrote:
On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:25:09 -0700, Pilcrow posted:
>The only such repository I'm familiar with is sourceforge.net . If you
check out their web site, it's pretty obvious how to search it.
Documentatio n seems to be the norm, not the exception, but I'm sure
that the quality of the documentation is highly variable. I'm sure
that cross-platform compatibility is also highly variable. That's
pretty much unavoidable when source code comes from such a wide
variety of sources.
I apologize. *I don't think Perl is superior to C. *Every Perl
programmer, however, knows of the existence of CPAN. *I was trying to
find how I could find tested solutions in C, similar to the tested
solutions of CPAN,
C has no equivalent to CPAN. But then CPAN is pretty unique
to perl. You could say it was one of perl's selling points.
so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel with every
new task. *I will try to explore sourceforge more thoroughly, which I
have already used for various utilities.
You're not going to find CPAN here with the unterlanguage. *It requiresan
ecumenism that doesn't exist for C. *Not sure why.
Every time time you "reinvent the wheel," you have to have a caller and a
target. *
>I find that crossing syntax avoids weaknesses in given syntaxes.
what does that mean? Is it even english?
Now that I think about it, the first reason for the lack of ecumenism is
history and the second is that there are dozens of competing
implementations of C while perl competes more convincingly for a
narrowslice, like sysadmins.
effectivly there is only one perl implementation
--
Nick Keighley
I have found that all ugly things are made by those who strive to make
something beautiful and that all beautiful things are made by those
who
strive to make something useful.
-- Oscar Wilde
Pilcrow wrote, On 03/09/08 05:25:
<snip>
I apologize. I don't think Perl is superior to C. Every Perl
programmer, however, knows of the existence of CPAN. I was trying to
find how I could find tested solutions in C, similar to the tested
solutions of CPAN, so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel with every
new task. I will try to explore sourceforge more thoroughly, which I
have already used for various utilities.
Every Linux distribution comes with shed loads of libraries that are
accessible through C. Every OS provides a number of system specific
libraries for doing certain things (such as networking & graphics if the
system supports them natively, as modern personal computers generally
do). There are commercially available libraries for a number of tasks if
you can pay the money and live with the licensing terms. There are
things like Sourceforge. A number of posters here have their own
libraries they make available. However, there are things which are
fundamentally easier in Perl even if you have C libraries to do the
donkey work for you.
Oh, and modules in CPAN don't always work on all systems to which Perl
has been ported (I had some problems with modules on SCO a few years
back), so C libraries for specific tasks not always being portable to
everywhere is no different.
--
Flash Gordon
Pilcrow <pi*****@pp.inf owrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT), ja*********@ver izon.net wrote:
There is no single repository for C libraries which plays the same
role for C that CPAN does for perl, but I would guess that many
why do you have to guess? CPAN is so much integrated with Perl, that
whenever Perl is installed, the access to CPAN (cpan.pm) is
automatically included
That's a neat trick, given that I've installed PERL on machines without
internet access.
Richard
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 00:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Nick Keighley posted:
On 3 Sep, 07:47, Ron Ford <r...@example.i nvalidwrote:
>On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:25:09 -0700, Pilcrow posted:
>>>>The only such repository I'm familiar with is sourceforge.net . If you
check out their web site, it's pretty obvious how to search it.
Documentati on seems to be the norm, not the exception, but I'm sure
that the quality of the documentation is highly variable. I'm sure
that cross-platform compatibility is also highly variable. That's
pretty much unavoidable when source code comes from such a wide
variety of sources.
>>I apologize. *I don't think Perl is superior to C. *Every Perl
programmer, however, knows of the existence of CPAN. *I was trying to
find how I could find tested solutions in C, similar to the tested
solutions of CPAN,
C has no equivalent to CPAN. But then CPAN is pretty unique
to perl. You could say it was one of perl's selling points.
Absolutely. The rest of us, eg, c, c++, c sharp, c flat, fortran, fortran
flat and karaoke, best note the strength of perl's syntax.
>
>>so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel with every
new task. *I will try to explore sourceforge more thoroughly, which I
have already used for various utilities.
You're not going to find CPAN here with the unterlanguage. *It requires an
ecumenism that doesn't exist for C. *Not sure why.
Every time time you "reinvent the wheel," you have to have a caller and a
target. *
>>I find that crossing syntax avoids weaknesses in given syntaxes.
what does that mean? Is it even english?
Since texans have monopolized vapidity, I'm afraid the answer is yes. I
can't make the point without posting a syntax which is not c, but that just
reminds me of texans, the not-constitution oil retards.
>
>Now that I think about it, the first reason for the lack of ecumenism is
history and the second is that there are dozens of competing
implementation s of C while perl competes more convincingly for a
narrowslice, like sysadmins.
effectivly there is only one perl implementation
Right.
--
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to
the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his
children smart. 5
H. L. Mencken
On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:27:34 GMT, Richard Bos posted:
Pilcrow <pi*****@pp.inf owrote:
>On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT), ja*********@ver izon.net wrote:
>>>There is no single repository for C libraries which plays the same
role for C that CPAN does for perl, but I would guess that many
why do you have to guess? CPAN is so much integrated with Perl, that
whenever Perl is installed, the access to CPAN (cpan.pm) is
automaticall y included
That's a neat trick, given that I've installed PERL on machines without
internet access.
Richard
..pm brings you farther with perl and a net connection than your installs.
--
Unquestionably, there is progress. The average American now pays out twice
as much in taxes as he formerly got in wages. 1
H. L. Mencken
Pilcrow wrote:
....
am used to doing with Perl. I ask provocative questions in the attempt
of gaining new knowledge, ...
Asking provocative questions tends, by definition, to provoke negative
reactions. I'd recommend asking interesting questions, rather than
provocative ones.
....
I already have gotten some answers, such as the existence of the
locale.h header file, which I should have noticed before.
I didn't realize that you were that unfamiliar with C, and therefore
misunderstood your comments as a dismissal of <locale.has being
insufficiently powerful. It might be insufficiently powerful; C++'s
support for locales, for instance, is much more sophisticated - so much
so that I can't quite figure out how to take advantage of it's powerful
capabilities - so there's certainly room for improvement (in both
languages).
James Kuyper <ja*********@ve rizon.netwrites :
Pilcrow wrote:
...
>am used to doing with Perl. I ask provocative questions in the attempt
of gaining new knowledge, ...
Asking provocative questions tends, by definition, to provoke negative
reactions. I'd recommend asking interesting questions, rather than
provocative ones.
"Provocativ e" means interesting. It does not mean it needs an aggressive
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