Given that UNIX, including networking, is almost entirely coded in C,
how come so many things are almost impossible in ordinary C? Examples:
Network and internet access, access to UNIX interprocess controls and
communication, locale determination, EBCDIC/ASCII discrimination, etc.
Almost all of these are easy in Perl. Why isn't there a mechanism like
perl modules to allow easy extentions for facilities like these? Isn't
anyone working on this problem? or is it all being left for proprietary
systems?
Sep 2 '08
223  7359 
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.comwrites:
Richard Heathfield wrote:
>Ian Collins said:
<snip>
>>C has lost the
mindshare in hosted applications programming and there's little point in
trying to win it back.
Am I the only one who isn't particularly bothered about this? Let people
write applications in whatever language /they/ want, as long as they leave
me to write them in whatever language /I/ want. I choose C (often - not
always). If they want to use C# or F# or Eb or D minor, that's up to them
- who cares?
No me. I just use the most appropriate tool for the job.
The difference being that Heathfield often uses C when it might not be
the most appropriate tool for the job.
One must always think of maintainability and the workforce required to
perform that maintenance. The likes of RH will not always be in ones
employ.
Willem <wi****@stack.n lwrites:
jacob navia wrote:
) Richard Heathfield wrote:
)
) [snip]
)
) I asked you a question Heathfield, a question that you conveniently
) snipped away.
)
) I repeat it:
) How would *you* solve the above problem?
You're begging the question.
Richard never claimed (in this thread at least) that your
solution was bad in any way.
And here's the question *you* never answered.
The question that *is* relevant:
Why do you argue about changing C *here*, in this newsgroup ?
Because its called comp.lang.c and experienced "standard" C programmers
with an opinion reside here? Simple really. I am astonished you could
not draw that conclusion yourself. ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
jacob navia wrote:
>Willem wrote:
...
Why do you argue about changing C *here*, in this newsgroup ?
Because this group discusses the C language obviously.
I presented my ideas to the comp.std.c group, many times.
I discuss them there too.
While such a suggestion is on-topic in that group, it is still not the
right place to make your proposal. Only a small number of committee
members participate in that group. If you really want anything to
change, you have to present your proposal to the committee, or at
least convince one of the committee members that your ideas have
sufficient merit to for that committee member to present them for you.
The committee members ore the ONLY ones who can actually make it
happen - nothing you say to anyone else will have much effect.
All may be true. But to discuss it here is easily the best thing to do
since real programmers can dissect ideas "in the real world".
In article <g9**********@r egistered.motza rella.org>,
Richard <rg****@gmail.c omwrote in response to some chump:
....
>Why do you argue about changing C *here*, in this newsgroup ?
Because its called comp.lang.c and experienced "standard" C programmers
with an opinion reside here? Simple really. I am astonished you could
not draw that conclusion yourself.
It really is amazing. The problem is that this newsgroup is totally,
100%, hung-up on the idea of what C "is". As has been pointed out many
times, it is a dogmatic position not found in any other subspecies of
the computing profession. It is, of course, much more at home in a
religious context.
I know of no other comp.* newsgroup where this sort of obsession (*) exists.
(*) Obsession with things as they are and absolute paranoia about
discussing how things might be (i.e., what they could evolve into).
Richard wrote:
Willem <wi****@stack.n lwrites:
....
And here's the question *you* never answered.
The question that *is* relevant:
Why do you argue about changing C *here*, in this newsgroup ?
Because its called comp.lang.c and experienced "standard" C programmers
with an opinion reside here? Simple really. I am astonished you could
not draw that conclusion yourself.
If his arguments were intended to promote a discussion in which he
would hear differing opinions about his proposed changes to the
standard and take them into consideration when putting together his
presentation for the committee, that would make a certain amount of
sense. But we're talking about jacob navia; he's apparently incapable
of tolerating (or even reading clearly and correctly) opinions that
differ from his own. He also seems, based upon the examples we've
seen, to be incapable of putting together a proposal that's
sufficiently complete and detailed to be taken seriously by the
committee; and unwilling to take the steps needed to actually place
his proposal before them.
In any event, the original question was posed by Richard Heathfield:
... I'm just curious as to why you propose it here, since nobody here has any authority to change the language
definition (except Larry, perhaps, since he's actually a voting member of the ISO C Committee). It seems
rather pointless.
In reference to jacob's comment:
That is why I have been insisting that we adopt the operator overloading feature that would allow using the '['
and ']' notation for general containers.
The point of the matter is, "insisting" on it here won't do any good.
"insisting" on it in a discussion with committee members actually has
a chance of success, however slim that chance might be. The chances
would be better if he'd replace the word "insist" with something like
"suggest", which more accurately reflects his position in the scheme
of things. No one (except possibly the ISO secretariat) has the
authority to "insist" that the committee do anything other than what
the committee itself thinks is the best thing for it to do.
Richard wrote:
ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
jacob navia wrote:
Willem wrote:
...
Why do you argue about changing C *here*, in this newsgroup ?
Because this group discusses the C language obviously.
I presented my ideas to the comp.std.c group, many times.
I discuss them there too.
While such a suggestion is on-topic in that group, it is still not the
right place to make your proposal. Only a small number of committee
members participate in that group. If you really want anything to
change, you have to present your proposal to the committee, or at
least convince one of the committee members that your ideas have
sufficient merit to for that committee member to present them for you.
The committee members ore the ONLY ones who can actually make it
happen - nothing you say to anyone else will have much effect.
All may be true. But to discuss it here is easily the best thing to do
since real programmers can dissect ideas "in the real world".
But he doesn't want his ideas dissected - the only thing he's open to
is unthinking uncritical acceptance of the "fact" that his ideas are
both sufficiently good that they should be approved without
modification, and sufficiently important that they should be approved
immediately. Present him with any disagreement, no matter how trivial,
and all you'll receive in response is a stream of vituperation.
Granted, he won't get uncritical acceptance from the Committee,
either. However, at least from the committee he has some vanishingly
small chance of getting his ideas approved; something that this
newsgroup has no authority to do (and neither does comp.std.c). ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
Richard wrote:
>ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
jacob navia wrote:
Willem wrote:
...
Why do you argue about changing C *here*, in this newsgroup ?
Because this group discusses the C language obviously.
I presented my ideas to the comp.std.c group, many times.
I discuss them there too.
While such a suggestion is on-topic in that group, it is still not the
right place to make your proposal. Only a small number of committee
members participate in that group. If you really want anything to
change, you have to present your proposal to the committee, or at
least convince one of the committee members that your ideas have
sufficient merit to for that committee member to present them for you.
The committee members ore the ONLY ones who can actually make it
happen - nothing you say to anyone else will have much effect.
All may be true. But to discuss it here is easily the best thing to do
since real programmers can dissect ideas "in the real world".
But he doesn't want his ideas dissected - the only thing he's open to
is unthinking uncritical acceptance of the "fact" that his ideas are
both sufficiently good that they should be approved without
modification, and sufficiently important that they should be approved
immediately. Present him with any disagreement, no matter how trivial,
and all you'll receive in response is a stream of vituperation.
Total and utter nonsense.
He rises to Heathfield's arrogant posturing now and again but more often
than not Jacob is willing to discuss.
Richard<rg****@ gmail.comwrites : ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
>Richard wrote:
>>ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
<snip>
>While such a suggestion is on-topic in that group, it is still not the
right place to make your proposal.
<snip>
>>All may be true. But to discuss it here is easily the best thing to do
since real programmers can dissect ideas "in the real world".
But he doesn't want his ideas dissected - the only thing he's open to
is unthinking uncritical acceptance of the "fact" that his ideas are
both sufficiently good that they should be approved without
modification , and sufficiently important that they should be approved
immediately. Present him with any disagreement, no matter how trivial,
and all you'll receive in response is a stream of vituperation.
Total and utter nonsense.
He rises to Heathfield's arrogant posturing now and again but more often
than not Jacob is willing to discuss.
Odd, then, that your contribution to this mature debate was:
| I would sooner boil my nuts in a vat of sun flower oil than agree
| that operator overloading in C is a good idea.
to which Jacob simply suggested supplying an alternative oil. Why did
you not think Jacob would be receptive to a more technical critique at
the time?
--
Ben.
Ben Bacarisse <be********@bsb .me.ukwrites:
Richard<rg****@ gmail.comwrites :
>ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
>>Richard wrote:
ja*********@ver izon.net writes:
<snip>
>>While such a suggestion is on-topic in that group, it is still not the
right place to make your proposal.
<snip>
>>>All may be true. But to discuss it here is easily the best thing to do
since real programmers can dissect ideas "in the real world".
But he doesn't want his ideas dissected - the only thing he's open to
is unthinking uncritical acceptance of the "fact" that his ideas are
both sufficiently good that they should be approved without
modificatio n, and sufficiently important that they should be approved
immediately . Present him with any disagreement, no matter how trivial,
and all you'll receive in response is a stream of vituperation.
Total and utter nonsense.
He rises to Heathfield's arrogant posturing now and again but more often
than not Jacob is willing to discuss.
Odd, then, that your contribution to this mature debate was:
| I would sooner boil my nuts in a vat of sun flower oil than agree
| that operator overloading in C is a good idea.
to which Jacob simply suggested supplying an alternative oil. Why did
you not think Jacob would be receptive to a more technical critique at
the time?
Its called a joke. We had discussed it before and I explained my
"practical" objections to operator overloading in any language. i
realise I am in a minority. I remember when I thought they were
"kewl". Then I had to maintain and extend poorly written code which
absolutely thrashed the use of them. It was horrific.
--
Ben Bacarisse said:
<snip>
Why did
you not think Jacob would be receptive to a more technical critique at
the time?
What makes you think Richard Riley is capable of a more technical critique?
From what I can recall of those articles of his that I read before
plonking him, he rarely posted anything even remotely to do with C, and on
the few occasions when he did he was typically wrong. He sticks to
bitching because bitching is all he knows how to do, and (unless he has
improved remarkably in recent times) he doesn't do that terribly well
either, poor chap. Perhaps we should organise a whip-round or something.
No, if you want a critique of operator overloading in C, you'll have to
look elsewhere. And unfortunately there's no point looking in my direction
for such a critique, because I kind of like the idea!
--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk >
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999 This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
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