Given that UNIX, including networking, is almost entirely coded in C,
how come so many things are almost impossible in ordinary C? Examples:
Network and internet access, access to UNIX interprocess controls and
communication, locale determination, EBCDIC/ASCII discrimination, etc.
Almost all of these are easy in Perl. Why isn't there a mechanism like
perl modules to allow easy extentions for facilities like these? Isn't
anyone working on this problem? or is it all being left for proprietary
systems?
Sep 2 '08
223  7318 
In article <ln************ @nuthaus.mib.or g>,
Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.orgm eant to say:
....
>Don't confuse the scope of this newsgroup (as defined by a small, but
very vocal subset, of the participants) with the scope of C programming.
Typos fixed. No thanks are necessary. HTH. HAND.
Pilcrow wrote:
[...] But perhaps
an example of what I mean is appropriate. Last year I had a list of
several hundred addresses in the USA for which I wanted the 5+4 postal
zip codes. Using a standard module, 'WWW::Mechanize ', from CPAN
<http://en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/CPAN>, I was able, in about an hour, to
write a program (or a 'script'), in perl, that would access
<http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp>, programmaticall y enter each
address, parse the response, extract the zip codes I needed, and update
my list.
Good: Problem solved, need satisfied, it's Miller Time.
How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
One first wonders why you feel a need to re-solve a problem
already solved, just for the sheer joy of doing it in C. Will
you then go on to solve it in Ada, Fortran, Lisp, Jovial, ...?
Or to put it another way: If you feel impelled to throw out your
working Perl solution and write a fresh one in C, what is it
about Perl that you find unsatisfactory?
I'm not familiar with the libraries you mention, but there
are plenty of C libraries out there, perhaps including a few that
perform the kinds of tasks you're interested in.
I am sure that it is possible, since Perl itself is written in standard
C, or at least GCC.
I suspect you'll find that it's written in a C dialect --
maybe strictly-conforming C, maybe something looser -- and that
it also makes use of libraries of various kinds that are in turn
written in Lordknowswhat. Perhaps all you're really looking for
is the packaging of a bunch of libraries into a single convenient
framework so you don't have to hunt them up and integrate them?
That's a perfectly reasonable thing to want, but ... as part of
the definition of a general-purpose language?
In your kitchen, I imagine you have an assortment of various
knives. You've probably got a few general-purpose knives, and a
few that are more specialized: heavy broad-bladed knives for chopping,
skinny flexible-bladed knives for filleting, knives with serrated
edges for slicing bread, knives with finer serrations for cutting
tomatoes ... Why do you have so many knives, instead of doing all
your cutting, slicing, and chopping with just one? Is it, perhaps,
because a knife that could handle *all* cutting tasks might have
usability problems?
Stretching the analogy right up to the breaking point, here
are two competing views of what C should be: http://www.victorinox.com/index.cfm?...age=158&lang=D http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/8b97/zoom/
You'll notice that they differ mostly in degree.
-- Er*********@sun .com
Eric Sosman wrote:
Pilcrow wrote:
[...] But perhaps
an example of what I mean is appropriate. Last year I had a list of
several hundred addresses in the USA for which I wanted the 5+4 postal
zip codes. Using a standard module, 'WWW::Mechanize ', from CPAN
<http://en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/CPAN>, I was able, in about an hour, to
write a program (or a 'script'), in perl, that would access
<http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp>, programmaticall y enter each
address, parse the response, extract the zip codes I needed, and update
my list.
Good: Problem solved, need satisfied, it's Miller Time.
How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
One first wonders why you feel a need to re-solve a problem
already solved, just for the sheer joy of doing it in C. Will
This isn't about a particular problem and it's solution, it's about
the availability of problem-solving tools. He's asking how he could
have used a similar approach to solving the problem in the first
place, if he had chosen C rather than perl.
Pilcrow wrote:
....
I am certainly glad to hear that these things are possible. But perhaps
an example of what I mean is appropriate. Last year I had a list of
several hundred addresses in the USA for which I wanted the 5+4 postal
zip codes. Using a standard module, 'WWW::Mechanize ', from CPAN
<http://en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/CPAN>, I was able, in about an hour, to
write a program (or a 'script'), in perl, that would access
<http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp>, programmaticall y enter each
address, parse the response, extract the zip codes I needed, and update
my list.
The program I wrote is generalized enough to be able to do the same with
any other similar list. This saved me the chore of manually entering
each address into the form on that web page and copying and pasting the
zip code to my list. That chore would have taken several days, since I
am a clumsy typist, and the list, as I have said, has several hundred
entries.
How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
There is no single repository for C libraries which plays the same
role for C that CPAN does for perl, but I would guess that many
similar repositories do exist for C code. What you're asking about is
mostly a social issue having to do with how CPAN works; it isn't
related to any technical differences between C and perl. Personally,
the repository I have the most familiarity with is sourceforge.net ,
which handles a lot more than just C libraries.
Pilcrow wrote:
Given that UNIX, including networking, is almost entirely coded in C,
how come so many things are almost impossible in ordinary C? Examples:
Network and internet access, access to UNIX interprocess controls and
communication, locale determination, EBCDIC/ASCII discrimination, etc.
Almost all of these are easy in Perl. Why isn't there a mechanism like
perl modules to allow easy extentions for facilities like these? Isn't
anyone working on this problem? or is it all being left for proprietary
systems?
Where the facilities exist, the C libraries are provided. What do you
think Perl modules use?
--
Ian Collins.
In article <db************ *************** *******@73g2000 hsx.googlegroup s.com>,
<ja*********@ve rizon.netwrote:
....
(ditzy Eric scribbled)
> One first wonders why you feel a need to re-solve a problem
already solved, just for the sheer joy of doing it in C. Will
This isn't about a particular problem and it's solution, it's about
the availability of problem-solving tools. He's asking how he could
have used a similar approach to solving the problem in the first
place, if he had chosen C rather than perl.
Yes. Anyone with a couple of brain cells to rub together can see that.
But it doesn't fit in with the CLC regs approach.
Go back and re-read Eric's text. It is chock full of nasty sarcasm
aimed at belittling the OP, while clearly feigning ignorance of what
this thread is really about.
Eric Sosman <Er*********@su n.comwrites:
Pilcrow wrote:
>[...] But perhaps
an example of what I mean is appropriate. Last year I had a list of
several hundred addresses in the USA for which I wanted the 5+4 postal
zip codes. Using a standard module, 'WWW::Mechanize ', from CPAN
<http://en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/CPAN>, I was able, in about an hour, to
write a program (or a 'script'), in perl, that would access
<http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp>, programmaticall y enter each
address, parse the response, extract the zip codes I needed, and update
my list.
Good: Problem solved, need satisfied, it's Miller Time.
>How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
One first wonders why you feel a need to re-solve a problem
already solved, just for the sheer joy of doing it in C. Will
Yes. I mean, who on earth EVER prototypes something in a high level
language and then moves to something like C for, oh, I dont know,
speed, memory usage etc. Are you always so ready to belittle people?
you then go on to solve it in Ada, Fortran, Lisp, Jovial, ...?
Or to put it another way: If you feel impelled to throw out your
working Perl solution and write a fresh one in C, what is it
about Perl that you find unsatisfactory?
I'm not familiar with the libraries you mention, but there
are plenty of C libraries out there, perhaps including a few that
perform the kinds of tasks you're interested in.
So you do not know. Just throw in a bit of sarcasm because you are
bored?
>
>I am sure that it is possible, since Perl itself is written in standard
C, or at least GCC.
I suspect you'll find that it's written in a C dialect --
maybe strictly-conforming C, maybe something looser -- and that
it also makes use of libraries of various kinds that are in turn
written in Lordknowswhat. Perhaps all you're really looking for
is the packaging of a bunch of libraries into a single convenient
framework so you don't have to hunt them up and integrate them?
That's a perfectly reasonable thing to want, but ... as part of
the definition of a general-purpose language?
In your kitchen, I imagine you have an assortment of various
knives. You've probably got a few general-purpose knives, and a
few that are more specialized: heavy broad-bladed knives for chopping,
skinny flexible-bladed knives for filleting, knives with serrated
edges for slicing bread, knives with finer serrations for cutting
tomatoes ... Why do you have so many knives, instead of doing all
your cutting, slicing, and chopping with just one? Is it, perhaps,
because a knife that could handle *all* cutting tasks might have
usability problems?
Who the hell do you think you are second guessing the OP? He came here
for C help - not you strutting around and telling him what he wants.
>
Stretching the analogy right up to the breaking point, here
are two competing views of what C should be:
http://www.victorinox.com/index.cfm?...age=158&lang=D
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/8b97/zoom/
You'll notice that they differ mostly in degree.
The only thing I noticed is that you made a right fool out of
yourself. Congratulations and another clc stripe.
In article <g9**********@r egistered.motza rella.org>,
Richard <rg****@gmail.c omwrote:
....
> Good: Problem solved, need satisfied, it's Miller Time.
>>How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
One first wonders why you feel a need to re-solve a problem
already solved, just for the sheer joy of doing it in C. Will
Yes. I mean, who on earth EVER prototypes something in a high level
language and then moves to something like C for, oh, I dont know,
speed, memory usage etc. Are you always so ready to belittle people?
Answering for Eric: Yes. In a word. Yes. It is my biggest thrill in
life.
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT), ja*********@ver izon.net wrote:
>Pilcrow wrote:
...
>I am certainly glad to hear that these things are possible. But perhaps
an example of what I mean is appropriate. Last year I had a list of
several hundred addresses in the USA for which I wanted the 5+4 postal
zip codes. Using a standard module, 'WWW::Mechanize ', from CPAN
<http://en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/CPAN>, I was able, in about an hour, to
write a program (or a 'script'), in perl, that would access
<http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/welcome.jsp>, programmaticall y enter each
address, parse the response, extract the zip codes I needed, and update
my list.
The program I wrote is generalized enough to be able to do the same with
any other similar list. This saved me the chore of manually entering
each address into the form on that web page and copying and pasting the
zip code to my list. That chore would have taken several days, since I
am a clumsy typist, and the list, as I have said, has several hundred
entries.
How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
There is no single repository for C libraries which plays the same
role for C that CPAN does for perl, but I would guess that many
why do you have to guess? CPAN is so much integrated with Perl, that
whenever Perl is installed, the access to CPAN (cpan.pm) is
automatically included (unless you're installing ActiveState Perl, and a
similar facility is provided there).
>similar repositories do exist for C code. What you're asking about is
mostly a social issue having to do with how CPAN works; it isn't
related to any technical differences between C and perl. Personally,
the repository I have the most familiarity with is sourceforge.net ,
which handles a lot more than just C libraries.
Similar repositories? How do I search them? Do they include
documentation? Are they cross-platform compatible? (I did my trick on a
MS platform, using a distribution of Perl know as 'Strawberry' perl, but
it would have worked also in a UNIX or Linux environment, using Perl
compiled for those). I have made use of Google's code search facility,
but it has its limitations.
Perhaps the reason for this contrast between C and Perl is the
cooperative spirit behind the Open Source movement. Also the evolving
nature of Perl, which, though it dates to 1987, has been frequently
improved and expanded. Facilities for OO programming, multi-threading,
forking, and others, though not in Perl a few years ago, are now
standard. And backward compatability has always been a consideration.
The documentation for Perl is also exemplary. There is little need to go
beyond the documentation available at the command line. All the
documentation needed is included with the installation. Little need to
buy other texts. I admit that more documentation is needed than with C,
but perl is a more complex language.
Pilcrow wrote:
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT), ja*********@ver izon.net wrote:
Pilcrow wrote:
....
How could I do the same sort of thing using C? Is there a repository of
libraries for C, similar to CPAN for Perl? If not, is anyone working on
it?
There is no single repository for C libraries which plays the same
role for C that CPAN does for perl, but I would guess that many
why do you have to guess? ...
Because I don't possess enough information to be certain, one way or
the other. Do you? If your question was just rheotorical, as now seems
to be the case, then all you're doing is trolling this newsgroup to
promote perl as a superior alternative to C. I know too much about
perl to fall for that one: perl has a number of advantages over C in
particular contexts, and i use it routinely when those contexts apply,
but it has nowhere near enough advantages to replace C in all
contexts. I wouldn't dream of using it for any of the tasks that I
currently use C for.
... CPAN is so much integrated with Perl, that
whenever Perl is installed, the access to CPAN (cpan.pm) is
automatically included (unless you're installing ActiveState Perl, and a
similar facility is provided there).
I can't figure out what relevance that has to my guesswork. It almost
seems as if you're saying that a C repository cannot count as
"similar" unless access to that repository is automatically installed
when you install your C compiler; but I can't imagine that you're
making such a fatuous suggestion.
similar repositories do exist for C code. What you're asking about is
mostly a social issue having to do with how CPAN works; it isn't
related to any technical differences between C and perl. Personally,
the repository I have the most familiarity with is sourceforge.net ,
which handles a lot more than just C libraries.
Similar repositories? How do I search them? Do they include
documentation? Are they cross-platform compatible?
The only such repository I'm familiar with is sourceforge.net . If you
check out their web site, it's pretty obvious how to search it.
Documentation seems to be the norm, not the exception, but I'm sure
that the quality of the documentation is highly variable. I'm sure
that cross-platform compatibility is also highly variable. That's
pretty much unavoidable when source code comes from such a wide
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