The Future of C++ ?

[blangela]

If you had asked me 5 years ago about the future of C++, I would have
told you that its future was assured for many years to come. Recently,
I have been starting to wonder.

I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
no longer interested in learning C++. They would rather learn .NET
languages or Java (my colleages who teach these courses seem to be very
busy!). I believe it is because these other languages are easier to
learn and/or are perceived to be more relevant today.

I do believe that C++ is more difficult to learn than many of these
other languages. Despite my best efforts to make them exciting, I see
the eyes of my students start to glaze over when I start explaining
pointers. When I ask them to tokenize an english sentence (using the
strtok() function) and print the token in reverse order (they need to
declare an array of type char * and save the addresses of the tokens in
this array), I experience near panic from many of my students. But
these concepts need to be taught in a responsible C++ course. As was
pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
programmers.

The ironic part is there is still a large demand for C++ developers
here in Vancouver. In fact, the company that I believe employs the
most developers here in Vancouver, employs almost entirely C++
programmers. This company, Electronic Arts (if you have not heard of
them, I guarantee that your kids have -- they create video games) is
only one of several gaming companies here in Vancouver that employ
primarily C++ programmers. Other companies like Kodak, MDSA, Nokia,
MDSI, etc. also employ large numbers of C++ programmers. Not
surprisingly, I have talked to several companies here in Vancouver who
are complaining that they are having difficulty finding C++ developers
and are looking at trying to recruit from abroad (eastern Europe
primarily).

I believe that many of these companies will be forced to migrate away
from C++ in the near future, simply because they will not be able to
find C++ programmers in the future. Soon the baby boomer C++
programmers will begin to retire, then the proverbial @@@@ will really
start to hit the fan!

Please tell me I am wrong, and paint me a view of the future which
includes C++.

[Earl Purple]

Silverclaw wrote:

The real solution would be C++2, a new version of the C++ language
(not an extension of the current language). I should avoid the
numerous traps, pitfalls and wrong defaults of the current language.
C++2 could be compatible with (but not a superset of) current C and
C++ (through a compatibility mode). Of course, that's a futile
proposal. That kind of language evolution happens in Python, Ruby,
PHP, ... but not in C++.

An evolution of C++ is already en-route. Have you seen
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ ?

Yes, there is a big D discussion currently on comp.lang.c++.m oderated.

D does not link with your existing C++ libraries. How it might be
useful is if there is a single D runtime library to make libraries
totally portable. They will need, in my opinion, a large number of
standard libraries relating to computing tools such as GUI, networking,
threads, databases, etc.

[VirtualDev]

blangela wrote:

If you had asked me 5 years ago about the future of C++, I would have
told you that its future was assured for many years to come. Recently,
I have been starting to wonder.

I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
no longer interested in learning C++. They would rather learn .NET
languages or Java (my colleages who teach these courses seem to be very
busy!). I believe it is because these other languages are easier to
learn and/or are perceived to be more relevant today.

I do believe that C++ is more difficult to learn than many of these
other languages. Despite my best efforts to make them exciting, I see
the eyes of my students start to glaze over when I start explaining
pointers. When I ask them to tokenize an english sentence (using the
strtok() function) and print the token in reverse order (they need to
declare an array of type char * and save the addresses of the tokens in
this array), I experience near panic from many of my students. But
these concepts need to be taught in a responsible C++ course. As was
pointed out to me recently, Microsoft still requires applicants to
demonstrate a very good knowledge of string manipulation using C-style
strings (none of these fancy string class objects!) when recruiting C++
programmers.

The ironic part is there is still a large demand for C++ developers
here in Vancouver. In fact, the company that I believe employs the
most developers here in Vancouver, employs almost entirely C++
programmers. This company, Electronic Arts (if you have not heard of
them, I guarantee that your kids have -- they create video games) is
only one of several gaming companies here in Vancouver that employ
primarily C++ programmers. Other companies like Kodak, MDSA, Nokia,
MDSI, etc. also employ large numbers of C++ programmers. Not
surprisingly, I have talked to several companies here in Vancouver who
are complaining that they are having difficulty finding C++ developers
and are looking at trying to recruit from abroad (eastern Europe
primarily).

I believe that many of these companies will be forced to migrate away
from C++ in the near future, simply because they will not be able to
find C++ programmers in the future. Soon the baby boomer C++
programmers will begin to retire, then the proverbial @@@@ will really
start to hit the fan!

Please tell me I am wrong, and paint me a view of the future which
includes C++.

I guess none here talked about the next standard of C++ the C++0x, that
one may be the solutions for all what is said about C++ complexity and
make it easy_to_learn and easy_to_program language.

In other hand, the C++, is the only language that gives the high rate
of flexibility between the high and the low level of programming.

for more about C++0x; http://www.artima.com/cppsource/cpp0x.html

Best Regards,
Adnane

[kwikius]

From: "kwikius" <an**@servocomm .freeserve.co.u k>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++
Subject: Re: The Future of C++ ?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:42:40 -0800
Tony wrote:

"kwikius" <an**@servocomm .freeserve.co.u kwrote in message
news:11******** *************@l 39g2000cwd.goog legroups.com...

Tony wrote:

"kwikius" <an**@servocomm .freeserve.co.u kwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ l39g2000cwd.goo glegroups.com.. .

There is no money behind C++ except from companies and maybe many of
their interests lie elsewhere.

Whatever that means.

Its the lack of good libraies that will kill C++ AFAICS.

Example please. What area is missing "good libraries" and what would,
for you, make it a "good" library? (Perhaps FREE?)

"Standard". GUI, graphics, dlls, IPC, concurrency.

OK, so you just want them to be standard. That assumes that the proprietary
vendors would give up control of those things though. I can't imagine MS
giving up its cash cow by adhering to a standard GUI API.

All I can say is that Microsoft moves in mysterious ways their wonders
to perform.

I am intrigued as to why Microsoft released VC8.0 Express for free
though. I don't know why but speculating and first saying that VC8.0 is
a very capable C++ compiler with a lovely optimiser.

1) They want to introduce C++ coders to .Net.
2) They've given up on C++ and basically chucked VC8.0 like garbage as
their last C++ compiler.
3) gcc is free so they decided to compete on the same playing field.

Who knows... but (if if Microsoft are listening) I do hope there will
be a VC++9.0 though with Concepts:

http://www.generic-programming.org/l...es/conceptcpp/

Beyond the limited horizons of 'implementation defined' C++ though, I
have a funny feeling that the idea of a virtual machine is the way of
the future. Ultimately this is the power of Java and the Microsoft .Net
languages. and its attractive to me and its a standard with cross
platform and cross language libraries... and and.... ;-)
regards
Andy Little

[Steven T. Hatton]

Chris Thomasson wrote:

"Steven T. Hatton" <ch********@ger mania.supwrote in message
news:jf******** *************** *******@speakea sy.net...

>Chris Thomasson wrote:

>>"Steven T. Hatton" <ch********@ger mania.supwrote in message
news:Fu****** *************** *********@speak easy.net...
Chris Thomasson wrote:
"Steven T. Hatton" <ch********@ger mania.supwrote in message
news:Ep**** *************** ***********@spe akeasy.net...
Why is the preprocessor bad?

"Among the facilities, techniques, and ideas C++ inherited from C was the
C
preprocessor , Cpp. I didn't like Cpp at all, and I still don't like it.
The character and file orientation of the preprocessor is fundamentally
at odds with a programming language designed around the notions of
scopes, types, and interfaces." Bjarne Stroustrup

You can use the C preprocessor to generate C++ code:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....382dc9a40439c7

>
I don't see anything wrong with the preprocessor.

I have seen Cpp used to effective ends. That is the nicest thing I can say
about it. For just one example of how it can bite you consider this
scenario: I spend 45 minutes agonizing over the names and signatures of
the member functions I want in the public interface of a class. I then
realize that I want DataModel to be an interface, and not an instantiable
class, so I rename it to DataModel_IF, delete the .cpp "implementation "
file and rename DataModel.h to DataModel_IF.h. Then I create a new header
file for the actual class DataModel and call it DataModel.h, and I also
create the corresponding DataModel.cpp. For some reason, none of my code
will compile even though everything looks correct. The errors aren't
making any sense in terms of the code I'm looking at. What's wrong?

--
NOUN:1. Money or property bequeathed to another by will. 2. Something handed
down from an ancestor or a predecessor or from the past: a legacy of
religious freedom. ETYMOLOGY: MidE legacie, office of a deputy, from OF,
from ML legatia, from L legare, to depute, bequeath. www.bartleby.com/61/

[tetra]

Noah Roberts wrote:

blangela wrote:

If you had asked me 5 years ago about the future of C++, I would have
told you that its future was assured for many years to come. Recently,
I have been starting to wonder.

I have been teaching C++ at a local polytechnical school here in
Vancouver, Canada for approximately 8 years. Six years ago, at the
height (or should I say volume?) of the internet bubble, I had 80+
students per semester in my C++ course. Now I am fortunate to have 15
students per semester. What has changed? I believe that students are
no longer interested in learning C++. They would rather learn .NET
languages or Java (my colleages who teach these courses seem to be very
busy!). I believe it is because these other languages are easier to
learn and/or are perceived to be more relevant today.

Hey, that's great news. Less cheap labor competition makes me a more
expensive commodity. It also makes my life easier when I don't have to
deal with the bozos comming out of college these days. Let them write
horrible crap in C# or Java. I win either way...I can't loose, no way
is C++ going away any time soon, so this can only be good news.

I say make your course tougher. Weed out the idiots for us.

I agree!

[Mirek Fidler]

Chris Thomasson wrote:

Other that that... When I get back from the meeting, we should include c.p.t
in this conversation.

Well, I have tried to follow links, but I am afraid I am missing the
necessary background...

Could you, for starters, give me a hint what means that
boost::shared_p tr does not have "strong guarantee"?

Does it mean that you cannot access (or write) single shared_ptr
instance from 2 threads?

Mirek

[Joe Seigh]

Mirek Fidler wrote:

Chris Thomasson wrote:

>>Other that that... When I get back from the meeting, we should include c.p.t
in this conversation.

Well, I have tried to follow links, but I am afraid I am missing the
necessary background...

Could you, for starters, give me a hint what means that
boost::shared_p tr does not have "strong guarantee"?

Does it mean that you cannot access (or write) single shared_ptr
instance from 2 threads?

Yes, concurrently or atomically, however you'd like to put it.
Similar to Java "pointer" guarantees.
--
Joe Seigh

When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
When you get hardware, you make software.

[Frederick Gotham]

Steven T. Hatton:

"Among the facilities, techniques, and ideas C++ inherited from C was the C
preprocessor, Cpp. I didn't like Cpp at all, and I still don't like it.
The character and file orientation of the preprocessor is fundamentally at
odds with a programming language designed around the notions of scopes,
types, and interfaces." Bjarne Stroustrup

Did you see the macros I wrote recently in another thread:

POST_IN_TERMS_O F
OP_IN_TERMS_OF
NON_CONST_IN_TE RMS_OF

These macros are very handy, and they cut down on programmer time and error.

--

Frederick Gotham

[Frederick Gotham]

Steven T. Hatton:

The one major flaw in C++ is '#'.

Are you five years old? '#' doesn't mean "preprocess or", never has and never
will. It's nothing more than a symbol which has different names in different
languages and dialects -- I myself call it the hash symbol.

From now on, when I say that there's a problem with '~', you can take it to
mean the mid-Atlantic currents.

--

Frederick Gotham

[Mirek Fidler]

Chris Thomasson wrote:

Well, you can't use it as a 100% drop in replacement right now because the
interface is a little different. However, it does provides two smart
pointers:

Well, before going into details....

Have you found a way how to implement lock-free reference counting
usable e.g. for COW string? (with "weak" guarantee for string itself)?

If yes, what is the idea, if you are willing to share?

Mirek