learning Modern C++

[arnuld]

hai all,

i am standing on a "crossroad to C++". I am here in front of you as i
have a problem. i will be brief. Please do not think: "arnuld is sick",
i am really struggling & doing hard-work to become a Modern C++
Programmer & i am feeling as if i am standing on a crossroad. i am
asking because every time i made a decision on my own, in my past, i
always ran into huge wastage of time, money & effort. that is why i am
posting it here:

--Problem-- as you folks know that i want to learn Modern C++ & in my
country "C++ Primer" 4/e & "Accelerate d C++" are not available & being
a jobless person i dont have money to order anything from abroad. i
have these books on my shelf:

1.) "Thinking in C++" 2/e
2.) "C++ Primer" 3/e
3.) "The C++ Programming Language" by Bjarne Stroustrup
4.) An illegal version of "C++ Primer" 4/e as a .chm file on my
Desktop.

i have these 5 options:

1.) read "C++ Primer 4/e" online: cant be done. with online copies
productivity goes down to 20%. reading "physically " really makes the
difference in understanding & learning the language.

2.) i took print-outs of 2-3-4 chapters of C++ Primer 4/e & read them &
found them excellent, though i took a while to understand. it has 800
pages, for me, it means 1000 pages of print outs from my EPSON
dot-matrix in 8 separate folders. it will be very difficult to learn
this way & what if i want to search for some phrase/ideas in C++, i am
"gone" in this case. i speak from experience, i tried this with
"Practical Common Lisp" & trust me, it was huge time wastage with much
less productivity & output (well, that is why Stroustrup created C++
:-)

3.) read "Bruce Eckel": tried that, he makes heavy-use of C. i dont
know C, i dont want to, i want C++.

4.) read "C++ Primer" 3/e: utterly incomprehensibl e to me.

4.) Learn C first -OOA & D book -C++. an excellent way to confuse
myself as i have found that learning "vectors, strings, new-delete"
1st, makes learning "C character arrays & free-malloc" much easier.
(while the opposite is not true, i tried it 2 months ago)

5.) Go directly with Stroustrup: +ve point is i will learn "Pure C++",
-ve point is i dont have any real-life coding experience, hence i found
it *too* dense & 50% of the times i did not understand what exactly he
was talink about. (but i do know what are variables, functions &
classes + strings, vectors, new delete from C++)

from all of this, i concluded Stroustrup is the only way to go. i just
need to dwell into it. what do you suggest?

thanks for your time

- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogapot.com

[mlimber]

glen wrote:

For learning the language I pass another book on my shelf, by O'Reilly.
It's loaned out right now, but I think it was title just 'Learning C++'.

The problem is that the OP has limited book availability. As for
_Learning C++_, see the review at:

http://accu.org/index.php/book_revie...review=l003746

If any book were a possiblity, I'd still go with _Accelerated C++_ (see
the review at
http://accu.org/index.php/book_revie...eview=a002212).

Cheers! --M

[arnuld]

tragomaskhalos wrote:

1/ Books are great, but you will only make real progress by writing code.
So, whichever book you decide to use, get yourself a free compiler - in
fact preferably several - and get coding.

i use "Debian Sarge", hence running "GCC - 3.3.5". i know its quite old
but i will be able to to get Fedora Core 6 after 3rd-5th November, then
i will use Fedora.

And whilst small snippets are OK, a meaty project is the best way to
really get to grips with the language.

i know, trouble is, one can only work on a C++ based project if he know
& understands C++ syntax. i spent 2 years of my life as a "salesman" &
that taught me about the realities. "work" is, to put it short,
way...way...dif ferent from academics. i am desperately waiting for the
day when i will finish C++ & start "real-life coding" at
http://savannah.gnu.org/ :-)

2/ C++ is a big language, but it can be tackled one bit at a time -
don't try and learn the whole lot at once, instead learn the core
concepts and practice them, then move on to the next level.

yes & C++ Primer 4/e was really perfect for this way. anyway, i am
trying both "Stroustrup " & "Eckel" & within 1-2 days i will switch to
one book.

3/ If there is an economic imperative at work here - eg you can't
afford books - whilst I applaud your dedication to C++ I question it
from a commercial perspective. .NET and/or Java are a far shorter route
to paying the bills. I say this as someone who processes a good deal of
CVs from your part of the world.

yeah, you are right. 60% of jobs belong to the "Java + .NET/VB" world &
40% to all other languages & 25-30% of ground is captured by C++, i am
trying to compete on this 25% ground. why?...read on. i have my
juniors (from college) earning 10, 000 INRs per month using .NET & i am
penny-less :-( , (BTW they carry Engineering degrees, i do not & ask
them something about C++ & they say "Oh, i dont use OOD, so i dont need
C++" & ask them about "Common Lisp" they say "What is that? i have
heard about Lisp, what is this Common Lisp?" when they knew i learnt
Lisp, one of them said "Ok, now i got it, you programme robots". when
they asked why i learn Lisp, my answer was "to Hack" & then i heard
"you want to become a criminal?" & then i cam to know i was dealing
with "fucking IDIOTS" earning 10,000 INR/month. all of them use either
..NET or VB or Java.

but the bottom line is "they are earning 10,000 INR/month. i am trying
much hard to keep a balance between my desire of becoming a *Hacker* &
the *need* of start doing some earning.

regarding Java & .NET. i hate Java. my college tried to teach us
"fundamenta ls of Java" in our final year of graduation & next i left
Computer Programming & went into "selling" as Programming was "most 3rd
class thing i ever saw". (at that time i knew only what they taught me
i.e. DOS, BASIC, Windows, .NET, VB, C & Java & my teacher advised
students to get "1500 pages" book of DOS to the students who were
"serious" about their careers & i wrote 22 marks of C programmes
without even knowing what "String.h" is. i have not heard the word
"Linux", it only happened in 2005 with "Hackers" at HBO the day i
Goggled for "computer careers" & i found "Python", "UNIX", "OpenBSD",
"Fedora" & "GNU" & "Hacker how to" i never stopped since then. 6 months
ago i threw away all the Windows & Windows based softwares CDs, 35 in
total :-)

i used Windows for 4 years & trust me it gave me nothing in
productivity. after 4 years you still stand where you were 4 years ago.
I advice everyone to use UNIX, i am using it from last 1 year & i
possess "common-sense" now. Windows degrades your senses, Windows users
carry diseases like paralysis, blindness & mirage-syndrome. remember
that there are exceptions in both directions & i am talking of 90% of
community.

Good luck anyway ...

thanks :-)

[BobR]

Phlip wrote in message ...

>>POVrookie

what does that mean?

Maybe www.povray.org

That's it.
I actually got into C++ because of POVray. I used to work (hobby) in
Assembler(x86 real-mode). I kept seeing people say that the POVray scripting
was very 'C' like. Then in 2000 I saw that 'C' and 'C++' had been
'standardised' (in '98), so, I decided it was time for a change.
I have to admit that now I can have a GUI program up-n-running in a day,
where it used to take at least a week in Assembler[1].
Funny, back in the '80s, I used to refer to 'C' as "a glorified librarian"
(due to it's lack of i/o without the use of libraries).

Anyway, on the raytrace NG I used to sign 'POVrookie', and just kept it over
the years.
[ with all they've added to the POVray script language (SDL), I'm still a
rookie! ]
It's more-or-less my trademark now.

[1] - I did my own graphics directly to my graphics card, and later used the
Vesa interface. Was using OOP (I called it 'modular') years before I found
out what it was. <G>
--
Bob R
POVrookie

[Bo Persson]

Greg Comeau wrote:

In article <11************ *********@b28g2 000cwb.googlegr oups.com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail. comwrote:

>arnuld wrote:

>>Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

We are right now buying and customizing a large package that will
require maintenance for the next 10-20 years. Knowing COBOL might mean
a secure job for a decade or two!
Bo Persson

[mlimber]

Bo Persson wrote:

Greg Comeau wrote:

In article <11************ *********@b28g2 000cwb.googlegr oups.com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail. comwrote:

arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but the
OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in most
others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning it.[/OT]

Cheers! --M

[Bo Persson]

mlimber wrote:

Bo Persson wrote:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

>>In article <11************ *********@b28g2 000cwb.googlegr oups.com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail. comwrote:
arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
>I definitely think you should learn C as well though.
>
learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns
COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a
small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but
the OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in
most others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning
it.[/OT]

Cheers! --M

There is actually another (merged) part of the company that is heavily
into PL/I. :-)

The question you (the OP) might ask your/himself is, do you want to go
mainstream and compete with everyone, or do you want to specialize and
get a nice niche position? Who knows?

Just look at me, posting here in favor of C++ and having a day job
writing mainframe COBOL. :-)
Bo Persson

[BobR]

arnuld wrote in message

>
i use "Debian Sarge", hence running "GCC - 3.3.5". i know its quite old
but i will be able to to get Fedora Core 6 after 3rd-5th November, then
i will use Fedora.

<snip>

>
I advice everyone to use UNIX, i am using it from last 1 year &...

A conflict in terms.
'Debian' and 'Fedora'(AFAIK) are GNU, and the 'NU' in GNU stands for "Not
Unix"! <G>

Most people say 'Linux', but, the OS is GNU and most use the 'Linux kernel'.
So, you see 'Debian' refer to it as 'GNU/Linux'. Read-up on the history of
'Linux' in your Debian docs.

Newbies (FYI):
Debian is free, as in "freedom". And you can download it for free, as in
"free beer".
[ if you have a slow connection to the net, I suggest you buy a set of
CDs/DVDs. (the software is free, you are paying for the
download-time+media+ship ping) ]
See www.debian.org and www.gnu.org for more.
And, you can have windows and GNU on the same computer.
--
Bob R
POVrookie
"Sarge is great, so good to finally be out of SID!"

[Phlip]

BobR wrote:

I actually got into C++ because of POVray. I used to work (hobby) in
Assembler(x86 real-mode). I kept seeing people say that the POVray
scripting
was very 'C' like.

I ought to line up and smack everyone who ever said that some language was
"C-like" when the only point in common was excessive {} delimiters.

Including those who say it about Java and C#.

POVray, while an awesome language in its own right, has as much in common
with C as a pogo stick has with a tank.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Greg Comeau]

In article <4q************ @individual.net >, Bo Persson <bo*@gmb.dkwrot e:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

>In article <11************ *********@b28g2 000cwb.googlegr oups.com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail. comwrote:

>>arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

We are right now buying and customizing a large package that will
require maintenance for the next 10-20 years. Knowing COBOL might mean
a secure job for a decade or two!

I understand those concerns well. Part of my roots are in
mainframe COBOL and mainframe PL/I. I will probably never use
them again, but I have no regrets from having done so.
My horizons are expanded and it has become an aspect of what
has shaped me. My only regrets is that there is only 24 hours
a day for learning even more. That said, saying this is far
away from the OPs original question as I recall it.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[Greg Comeau]

In article <11************ ********@h48g20 00cwc.googlegro ups.com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail. comwrote:

>Bo Persson wrote:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

In article <11************ *********@b28g2 000cwb.googlegr oups.com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail. comwrote:
arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but the
OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in most
others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning it.[/OT]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?