Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a web
developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to test
for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to multiple
computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would enjoy moving
between them every time they need to test a change in their code. Because my
boss is not currently requiring me to make the site function in all
browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I don't think people
will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to switch at this point. I
feel this way because:
1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
change their code to make it work in IE7
2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their home
computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view more
sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as Windows 98
(because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their OS) are
capable of using
I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes with
Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at the same
time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a page
shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like that for
use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks everyone
is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong. Many
universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people in the
residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other people do
it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist, you're
waiting your turn with me!
--
Nathan Sokalski nj********@hotm ail.com http://www.nathansokalski.com/
Jan 17 '07
48  3337 
Yes, in fact, FireFox accounts for all Mozilla type browsers, and IE7 is
almost exactly as conformant as FireFox, but I would test in both, or at
least understand the differences. IE6 is problematic, especially with
regards to CSS and some JavaScript. Of the current popular browsers, it is
the least standards-compliant, but really doesn't run into problems most of
the time. Safari is, of course, hte major Apple browser, and is almost
entirely standards-compliant.
So, using those 4 browsers, and not worrying too much about IE6 (IE7 is
freely available now), you should not need to test in any other browsers.
And you can probably safely skip Safari if you don't have a Mac, as long as
you stay inside the standards.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Bit Player http://unclechutney.blogspot.com
In case of Minimalism, break Philip Glass.
"Mark Rae" <ma**@markNOSPA Mrae.comwrote in message
news:Oe******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP02.phx.gbl...
"Corey B" <co***********@ gmail.comwrote in message
news:11******** **************@ q2g2000cwa.goog legroups.com...
>So for most situations you will need to test IE5, IE6, IE7, mozilla,
firefox, safari, netscape and probably opera.
IE5 is all but gone now...
IE7, IE6, FireFox and Safari account for over 95% of worldwide usage.
WinXP, 2000 & 98 account for 92% of worldwide usage - Mac 4%
http://www.thecounter.com/stats/
Leythos wrote:
With the above in mind, you need to test your app with the following:
Windows 2000 / IE6
Windows 2000 / IE7
Windows 2000 / AOL
Windows 2000 / FireFox 2
Windows XP / IE6
Windows XP / IE7
Windows XP / AOL
Windows XP / FireFox 2
Why do you feel it is necessary to test the identical browser on
multiple O/S's, e.g. IE6 on Win 2000 and Win XP, and Firefox 2 on Win
2000 and Win XP?
Why do you feel it is necessary to test AOL, given that it just uses IE?
"C A Upsdell" <""cupsdell\"@n o****@upsdell.c om"wrote in message
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP02.phx.gbl. ..
Why do you feel it is necessary to test the identical browser on multiple
O/S's, e.g. IE6 on Win 2000 and Win XP, and Firefox 2 on Win 2000 and Win
XP?
I was wondering that...
Why do you feel it is necessary to test AOL, given that it just uses IE?
I was wondering that too... :-)
My concern is not what customers will pay for, I am just a recently
graduated student who works from home and my boss doesn't care whether I
test it in anything other than IE6. But I want to become familiar with IE7
for personal reasons as well as experience for the future. And as I said in
previous postings, it's not that I don't have a way to test on both if I set
it up (I could use Virtual PC), but I want a way to have an IE6 and IE7
window open next to each other. I don't want to use Virtual PC for testing
because Visual Studio .NET 2005, which I use for developing, takes enough
RAM as it is, so having a second copy of the operating system running would
be a lot, along with the fact that I don't think that we should have to
install a second copy of the OS just to test a browser.
--
Nathan Sokalski nj********@hotm ail.com http://www.nathansokalski.com/
"Leythos" <vo**@nowhere.l anwrote in message
news:MP******** *************** *@adfree.usenet .com...
In article <11************ **********@q2g2 000cwa.googlegr oups.com>,
co***********@g mail.com says...
>So it sounds like you are saying that if you code to the standards then
there is no need to test in the different browsers? Is that realistic?
I think we will always want to test in the different browsers. Even
with standards we could have slight variations in how those standards
are implemented - true?
In general there are two targets - the IE group and the Everyone else
group. There is no cost effective means to make all web apps work with
all browsers, customers just wont pay for that.
With the above in mind, you need to test your app with the following:
Windows 2000 / IE6
Windows 2000 / IE7
Windows 2000 / AOL
Windows 2000 / FireFox 2
Windows XP / IE6
Windows XP / IE7
Windows XP / AOL
Windows XP / FireFox 2
MAC OS/x (if you care)
Nix OS / FireFox (Fedora, Mandrake, Ubuntu...)
If you do the above, you will cover 99% of the people that visit a
public website.
If your customer base is smaller, then reduce the list.
We have dedicated machines setup to test our web apps against the above,
just so that we can be sure they work. Each machine has a ghost image
that is restored before each test so that we can be sure that noone has
installed any controls that we don't expect users to not have.
--
sp*********@rro hio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
I'm just graduated less than a month ago, when I win the lottery I will! But
even so, we shouldn't have to install a second OS just to test a browser...
--
Nathan Sokalski nj********@hotm ail.com http://www.nathansokalski.com/
"Mark Rae" <ma**@markNOSPA Mrae.comwrote in message
news:uu******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP03.phx.gbl...
"Nathan Sokalski" <nj********@hot mail.comwrote in message
news:ud******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP02.phx.gbl...
>Yes, I know how to install a second copy of Windows XP SP2 using Virtual
PC,
Good, because that's the solution here...
>but if someone's going to have software like Visual Studio .NET open, do
you really want to use up all the extra RAM required to run a second copy
of the OS?
So get some more RAM, then...!
"Nathan Sokalski" <nj********@hot mail.comwrote in message
news:OI******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP02.phx.gbl...
My concern is not what customers will pay for, I am just a recently
graduated student who works from home and my boss doesn't care whether I
test it in anything other than IE6. But I want to become familiar with IE7
for personal reasons as well as experience for the future. And as I said
in previous postings, it's not that I don't have a way to test on both if
I set it up (I could use Virtual PC), but I want a way to have an IE6 and
IE7 window open next to each other. I don't want to use Virtual PC for
testing because Visual Studio .NET 2005, which I use for developing, takes
enough RAM as it is, so having a second copy of the operating system
running would be a lot, along with the fact that I don't think that we
should have to install a second copy of the OS just to test a browser.
You can't have your cake and eat it, as the saying goes...
E.g. if all you can afford is a cheap Ford, there's really very little point
in whinging about the fact that you can't afford a Ferrari, and you can
hardly blame the people who make the roads for the fact that others get
there quicker than you do...
I appreciate the fact that you aren't a millionaire, but a computer capable
of running the apps that you want really isn't *that* expensive these days,
especially in the States... You could find the money if you *really* wanted
to...
The fact that *you* don't think that you should have to install a second
copy of the OS just to test a browser is completely irrelevant - that fact
is, in this particular case, you do...
"Nathan Sokalski" <nj********@hot mail.comwrote in message
news:ed******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P04.phx.gbl...
But even so, we shouldn't have to install a second OS just to test a
browser...
Tough - you do...
Put up or shut up...
Mark Rae wrote:
You can't have your cake and eat it, as the saying goes...
E.g. if all you can afford is a cheap Ford, there's really very little point
in whinging about the fact that you can't afford a Ferrari, and you can
hardly blame the people who make the roads for the fact that others get
there quicker than you do...
I appreciate the fact that you aren't a millionaire, but a computer capable
of running the apps that you want really isn't *that* expensive these days,
especially in the States... You could find the money if you *really* wanted
to...
The fact that *you* don't think that you should have to install a second
copy of the OS just to test a browser is completely irrelevant - that fact
is, in this particular case, you do...
Wow. To me, that reply is a perfect example of "Microsoft
brainwashing". I don't want to be a MS basher because I really like a
lot of the stuff they put out. However, we all seem to be way too
willing to swallow whatever MS says. If they say we have to install a
second copy of the OS just to test a browser - are we just supposed to
say "oh well, guess I have to". No. We complain about it and maybe
they will fix it. Or if not, we move to a different browser. Just
because they can produce a workaround doesn't mean we have to accept
it.
To use the car analogy - what if Ford made a car and the only way you
could work on the engine was to completely remove it and install it in
a second car? The general public could care less - but the mechanics
would be up in arms. And what if the answer from Ford was "tough
bananas - we provided you a workaround"? They would never get away
with that. The reason that MS does is because they have a stranglehold
on the browser market because of their desktop OS dominance.
The difficulty in this situation is that we as developers can not
ignore IE. We can encourage users to move to a different browser but
it would take quite an effort to actually supplant IE as the dominant
browser.
Corey
"Corey B" <co***********@ gmail.comwrote in message
news:11******** *************@m 58g2000cwm.goog legroups.com...
Wow. To me, that reply is a perfect example of "Microsoft
brainwashing". I don't want to be a MS basher because I really like a
lot of the stuff they put out. However, we all seem to be way too
willing to swallow whatever MS says. If they say we have to install a
second copy of the OS just to test a browser - are we just supposed to
say "oh well, guess I have to". No. We complain about it and maybe
they will fix it. Or if not, we move to a different browser. Just
because they can produce a workaround doesn't mean we have to accept
it.
LOL! I really think you're in the wrong business or, at least, haven't had
much exposure to business software.
Not being able to run different versions of the same application on the same
operating system really is nothing new, especially if that operating system
is Windows.
Your "solution" of moving to a different browser won't get you very far
either - it's pretty much the same situation for FireFox 1.5.x and 2.0.x. Of
course, people have found ways of almost getting round this: http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourc...0+side+by+side
but they amount to little more than deinstalling one version and
reinstalling the other.
Going back to the car analogy, would you have your car repaired by someone
who couldn't afford a decent set of tools to do the job properly...?
I would like to point out that this is NOT pretty much the same situation as
FireFox 1.5 and 2.0. The difference is that when FireFox moved from 1.5 to
2.0, it made fixes and improvements. When Internet Explorer moved from 6.0
to 7.0, it made major changes, not just small changes such as security fixes
and minor bugs. IE7 completely changed the way it renders pages, because it
now follows the W3C standards so much more closely. As happy as I am that
they are now following more standards, it doesn't change the fact that
people will still be using IE6 for a while, so we have to test in both. With
version changes such as when IE went from 5.5 to 6.0, or when FireFox went
from 1.5 to 2.0, if the rendering changed at all it was probably adding
support for something (such as CSS) or correcting a bug. When adding support
for something, it won't cause existing pages to look different. When
correcting a bug, it probably means your page didn't work correctly
beforehand anyway. If the "bug" is referring to making a feature follow the
standards correctly, they have never changed this many at the same time, and
if I remember correctly, we were able to run IE 5.5 and 6.0 side by side
anyway.
I would also like to comment on the following:
Going back to the car analogy, would you have your car repaired by someone
who couldn't afford a decent set of tools to do the job properly...?
No, I wouldn't. However, Microsoft is supposed to want people to learn and
like their software. Regardless of what universities and schools try to say,
most learning is done through experience. I don't think anyone's employer is
going to let them spend the weekend in the office practicing coding, and the
people who really need to learn this stuff are the college students and
recent graduates majoring in it. I am a graduate from Fall 2006, and work
from home. If they want this generation of developers and designers to be
good with IE7, they better give us a way to practice without forcing us to
get rid of IE6! If I could use IE7 without needing to worry about how sites
I visit for personal reasons would look, I would have gotten it the day it
was released, but they decided to put us in this situation instead.
--
Nathan Sokalski nj********@hotm ail.com http://www.nathansokalski.com/
"Mark Rae" <ma**@markNOSPA Mrae.comwrote in message
news:OL******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
"Corey B" <co***********@ gmail.comwrote in message
news:11******** *************@m 58g2000cwm.goog legroups.com...
>Wow. To me, that reply is a perfect example of "Microsoft
brainwashing ". I don't want to be a MS basher because I really like a
lot of the stuff they put out. However, we all seem to be way too
willing to swallow whatever MS says. If they say we have to install a
second copy of the OS just to test a browser - are we just supposed to
say "oh well, guess I have to". No. We complain about it and maybe
they will fix it. Or if not, we move to a different browser. Just
because they can produce a workaround doesn't mean we have to accept
it.
LOL! I really think you're in the wrong business or, at least, haven't had
much exposure to business software.
Not being able to run different versions of the same application on the
same operating system really is nothing new, especially if that operating
system is Windows.
Your "solution" of moving to a different browser won't get you very far
either - it's pretty much the same situation for FireFox 1.5.x and 2.0.x.
Of course, people have found ways of almost getting round this:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourc...0+side+by+side
but they amount to little more than deinstalling one version and
reinstalling the other.
Going back to the car analogy, would you have your car repaired by someone
who couldn't afford a decent set of tools to do the job properly...?
This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics | |
by: Anoop |
last post by:
Hi,
I am new to this newsgroup and need help in the following questions.
1. I am workin' on a GUI application. Does C# provides Layout Managers the
way Java does to design GUI? I know that it can be done using the designer
but I intentionally don't want to use that. The one reason is that you
cannot change the code generated by the designer. The other could be that
you have more free hand and control to design your GUI.
2....
|
by: webEater |
last post by:
I have a problem, it's not browser specific, and I don't get a
solution. I have an (X)HTML document, I show you a part of it:
....
<!--<div class="pad">-->
<div id="eventImages"><img src="" id="eventImage0"
class="eventImage"><img src="" id="eventImage1"
class="eventImage"></div>
|
by: Sh4wn |
last post by:
Hi,
first, python is one of my fav languages, and i'll definitely keep
developing with it. But, there's 1 one thing what I -really- miss:
data hiding. I know member vars are private when you prefix them with
2 underscores, but I hate prefixing my vars, I'd rather add a keyword
before it.
Python advertises himself as a full OOP language, but why does it miss
one of the basic principles of OOP? Will it ever be added to python?
|
by: marktang |
last post by:
ONU (Optical Network Unit) is one of the key components for providing high-speed Internet services. Its primary function is to act as an endpoint device located at the user's premises. However, people are often confused as to whether an ONU can Work As a Router. In this blog post, we’ll explore What is ONU, What Is Router, ONU & Router’s main usage, and What is the difference between ONU and Router. Let’s take a closer look !
Part I. Meaning of...
|
by: Hystou |
last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can effortlessly switch the default language on Windows 10 without reinstalling. I'll walk you through it.
First, let's disable language synchronization. With a Microsoft account, language settings sync across devices. To prevent any complications,...
| | |
by: Oralloy |
last post by:
Hello folks,
I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>".
The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed.
This is as boiled down as I can make it.
Here is my compilation command:
g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp
Here is the code in...
|
by: Hystou |
last post by:
Overview:
Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
|
by: tracyyun |
last post by:
Dear forum friends,
With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
|
by: conductexam |
last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one.
At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image.
Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
|
by: TSSRALBI |
last post by:
Hello
I'm a network technician in training and I need your help.
I am currently learning how to create and manage the different types of VPNs and I have a question about LAN-to-LAN VPNs.
The last exercise I practiced was to create a LAN-to-LAN VPN between two Pfsense firewalls, by using IPSEC protocols.
I succeeded, with both firewalls in the same network. But I'm wondering if it's possible to do the same thing, with 2 Pfsense firewalls...
|
by: 6302768590 |
last post by:
Hai team
i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system
| | |
by: bsmnconsultancy |
last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...
| |
