How does Microsoft expect developers/designers to make stuff work for everyone?

[Nathan Sokalski]

Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a web
developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to test
for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to multiple
computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would enjoy moving
between them every time they need to test a change in their code. Because my
boss is not currently requiring me to make the site function in all
browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I don't think people
will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to switch at this point. I
feel this way because:

1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
change their code to make it work in IE7

2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their home
computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view more
sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as Windows 98
(because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their OS) are
capable of using

I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes with
Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at the same
time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a page
shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like that for
use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks everyone
is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong. Many
universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people in the
residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other people do
it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist, you're
waiting your turn with me!
--
Nathan Sokalski
nj********@hotm ail.com
http://www.nathansokalski.com/

[Patrice]

Once your OS runs in Virtual PC, you can of course do whatever you do with
an OS such as installing IE7 or any other application you want. Try a
Virtual PC group if you had some kind of problem...

--
Patrice

"Nathan Sokalski" <nj********@hot mail.coma écrit dans le message de news:
O4************* @TK2MSFTNGP06.p hx.gbl...

Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
switch at this point. I feel this way because:

1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
change their code to make it work in IE7

2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their
home computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view
more sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as
Windows 98 (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their
OS) are capable of using

I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes
with Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at
the same time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is
for operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a
page shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like
that for use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks
everyone is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong.
Many universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people
in the residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other
people do it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist,
you're waiting your turn with me!
--
Nathan Sokalski
nj********@hotm ail.com
http://www.nathansokalski.com/

[Mark Rae]

"Nathan Sokalski" <nj********@hot mail.comwrote in message
news:O4******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P06.phx.gbl...

I am a web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it
hard to test for both IE6 and IE7.

That's what VirtualPC is for... :-)

[Aidy]

Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6

and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
switch at this point. I feel this way because:

<snip>

I know what you mean. We need to test IE6/IE7/Firefox 1/ Firefox 2/Mac.
You might want to try this;

http://tredosoft.com/IE7_standalone

I haven't tried it myself so not sure how well it works.

[AJR]

Not a developer so do not know if your statements are valid, However quote:
"...Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
operating systems,..." .
You can have whatever browser your heart desires installed on the Virtual PC
one of the main purpose of the virtual PC is to evaluate OSs and
applications.
"Nathan Sokalski" <nj********@hot mail.comwrote in message
news:O4******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P06.phx.gbl...

Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
switch at this point. I feel this way because:

1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
change their code to make it work in IE7

2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their
home computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view
more sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as
Windows 98 (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their
OS) are capable of using

I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes
with Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at
the same time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is
for operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a
page shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like
that for use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks
everyone is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong.
Many universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people
in the residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other
people do it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist,
you're waiting your turn with me!
--
Nathan Sokalski
nj********@hotm ail.com
http://www.nathansokalski.com/

[Corey B]

I understand why people are suggesting VirtualPC, but I have to whole
heartedly agree with the original poster. Come on Microsoft! This is
2007. It is absolutely ridiculous to not have a (simple) way to run
the two browsers side by side. Netscape Navigator had that ability
from day one!

I think that this is an example of what happens when one company has
complete market dominance. They don't care as much. In the
development cycle for IE7 supporting side by side installation was
probably very, very low on their priority list. When it came time to
cut features that would be one of the first to go.

They will have to see their browser market share really, really slip
before they will start scratching their heads and wondering why
developers are building sites for FireFox instead of IE.

As much as I like MS, this seems to be an example of what happens when
you are able to bundle your browser with the OS. Since the vast, vast
majority of people have Windows, they just end up using IE. And since
MS recommends automatic updating, then the vast, vast majority of
people just start using IE7 when it comes out. And since this
particular problem only impacts a relatively small number of people
they probably decided it wasn't worth the effort.

My two cents.
Corey

AJR wrote:

Not a developer so do not know if your statements are valid, However quote:
"...Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
operating systems,..." .
You can have whatever browser your heart desires installed on the Virtual PC
one of the main purpose of the virtual PC is to evaluate OSs and
applications.
"Nathan Sokalski" <nj********@hot mail.comwrote in message
news:O4******** *****@TK2MSFTNG P06.phx.gbl...

Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a
web developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard
to test for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to
multiple computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would
enjoy moving between them every time they need to test a change in their
code. Because my boss is not currently requiring me to make the site
function in all browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I
don't think people will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to
switch at this point. I feel this way because:

1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
change their code to make it work in IE7

2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their
home computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view
more sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as
Windows 98 (because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their
OS) are capable of using

I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes
with Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at
the same time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is
for operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a
page shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like
that for use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks
everyone is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong.
Many universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people
in the residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other
people do it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist,
you're waiting your turn with me!
--
Nathan Sokalski
nj********@hotm ail.com
http://www.nathansokalski.com/

[C A Upsdell]

Nathan Sokalski wrote:

Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a web
developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to test
for both IE6 and IE7 ...

Others have told you to use Virtual PC. Normally you have to get a
license for any O/S you install using Virtual PC, however, MS offers a
free pre-licensed copy of XP SP2 with IE6 that you can install using
Virtual PC, so you can upgrade to IE7, and install Virtual PC with this
virtual copy of XP SP2 for testing with IE6. I have done this, and it
works fine.

See
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/200...e-machine.aspx

[norm]

Nathan Sokalski wrote:

Ever since I found out that they didn't give us a way to install both IE6
and IE7 on the same machine, I have been more frustrated and annoyed with
Microsoft than I ever have been with any company (and for someone who has
loved Microsoft as much as me, that takes something pretty bad!). I am a web
developer, and only have access to one computer, which makes it hard to test
for both IE6 and IE7. But even for people that have access to multiple
computers (at least one with IE6 and IE7), I doubt they would enjoy moving
between them every time they need to test a change in their code. Because my
boss is not currently requiring me to make the site function in all
browsers, I can survive as far as employment goes, but I don't think people
will want to optimize for IE7 if they are forced to switch at this point. I
feel this way because:

1. Many people (mostly the less technical people that don't want to learn
new software interfaces) won't be using IE7 yet anyway, so smaller
businesses and people creating personal sites will be less inclined to
change their code to make it work in IE7

2. People that develop personal websites and only have access to their home
computer will probably want to keep IE6 so that they can still view more
sites, as well as test on a browser that people as far back as Windows 98
(because believe it or not, some people haven't upgraded their OS) are
capable of using

I don't plan on upgrading to IE7 until I buy a new computer that comes with
Windows Vista or I find a way to have IE6 and IE7 on my machine at the same
time. Some people have told me to use VirtualPC 2004, but that is for
operating systems, and wouldn't help much when I want to see how a page
shows up in different browsers. If they could make something like that for
use with browsers, I would probably be happy. If Microsoft thinks everyone
is going to switch to IE7 because they want to, they are wrong. Many
universities have blocked the upgrade at the server level, so people in the
residence halls won't be getting it, and I don't think many other people do
it by choice anyway. Sorry, IE7, if you don't want to coexist, you're
waiting your turn with me!

If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
http://validator.w3.org/
--
norm

[Corey B]

So it sounds like you are saying that if you code to the standards then
there is no need to test in the different browsers? Is that realistic?
I think we will always want to test in the different browsers. Even
with standards we could have slight variations in how those standards
are implemented - true?

Corey

norm wrote:

If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
http://validator.w3.org/
--
norm

[norm]

Corey B wrote:

So it sounds like you are saying that if you code to the standards then
there is no need to test in the different browsers? Is that realistic?
I think we will always want to test in the different browsers. Even
with standards we could have slight variations in how those standards
are implemented - true?

Corey

norm wrote:

>If you code to w3c recommendations and standards, it should not make any
difference to ie6 and ie7, or most any other browser being used.
http://validator.w3.org/
--
norm

If coding to standards, there probably should not be any "show stoppers"
when viewed with standards compliant browsers. There could be variances,
but nothing that should create an unpleasant viewing experience for the
user. If you are concerned about viewing differences between ie6 and
ie7, what about how things show up in mozilla, firefox, seamonkey,
netscape, opera, konqueror, safari. Are you also testing each of these
against your code? Recommendations and standards compliance offer the
greatest amount of certainty that you are not inadvertently excluding
someone from viewing your work in a satisfying manner.
--
norm