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Where are the Access Developers?

P: n/a
TC
I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the
past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.

I think there's great demand right now, and that's keeping the good
developers busy, but that's not enough to explain the situation.
Whenever I post an Access job, I get lots of responses from .NET
developers, back-end database people, and web developers. They all have
the attitude that "I don't really do Access application development,
but Access is easy, so I can handle your job." (No!) The message I'm
getting is that people are choosing to build their skills in .NET, in
back-end database work, and in web development, even though the market
is well-served in those fields, but they aren't building their skills
in Access fast enough to keep up with the demand.

If that is indeed what is happening, I can't find a good explanation
why. Sure, Access has a lightweight reputation, and people don't see it
as a career-maker -- but that has always been the case, yet somehow
there have always been plenty of Access developers in the past. What
has changed now? I can't help but wonder if Access's star has faded to
the point where job seekers eschew it as old technology. That would be
a shame, because I think it will be a very long time before Access
loses its market niche.

Anyway, those are my comments. I wonder if other Access professionals
have made similar (or conflicting) observations.
-TC

Jan 19 '06 #1
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57 Replies


P: n/a
Throughout my courses in computer information systems my instructors
seemed to have a fairly low opinion of Access. We were taught just
enough VBA to do some extremely basic things. Instead of learning more
about Access, we were taught in-depth .NET concepts and did a lot of
..NET coding. Access classes had a heavy emphasis on relational design.
Before going to college I'd messed with Access before, making small,
uncomplicated databases for myself and others, so I went through those
courses without a hitch. However, there was very little offered for
learning.

Regardless of that, though, I was hired as an Access developer. Even
with the minimal VBA skills taught at the college I was able to jump
right in to Access programming because of the program design taught
through the .NET classes. It seems to me that fewer people are calling
themselves Access developers although they have the skills necessary to
accomplish the tasks you may give them. Some skills are the same no
matter what product or language you work with, and Access makes it easy
to capitalize on those skills. VBA is so easy to learn that even if I
hadn't worked with VB6 prior to working as an Access developer, I would
have still picked it up within a couple weeks.

Therefore, it is my opinion that some of the .NET people you have
turned down may in fact be completely qualified for working on your
Access databases, and that they simply call themselves something
different than "Access developer".

Jan 19 '06 #2

P: n/a

"TC" <go*********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the
past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.

I think there's great demand right now, and that's keeping the good
developers busy, but that's not enough to explain the situation.
Whenever I post an Access job, I get lots of responses from .NET
developers, back-end database people, and web developers. They all have
the attitude that "I don't really do Access application development,
but Access is easy, so I can handle your job." (No!) The message I'm
getting is that people are choosing to build their skills in .NET, in
back-end database work, and in web development, even though the market
is well-served in those fields, but they aren't building their skills
in Access fast enough to keep up with the demand.

If that is indeed what is happening, I can't find a good explanation
why. Sure, Access has a lightweight reputation, and people don't see it
as a career-maker -- but that has always been the case, yet somehow
there have always been plenty of Access developers in the past. What
has changed now? I can't help but wonder if Access's star has faded to
the point where job seekers eschew it as old technology. That would be
a shame, because I think it will be a very long time before Access
loses its market niche.

Anyway, those are my comments. I wonder if other Access professionals
have made similar (or conflicting) observations.
-TC


TC,

I don't have a base of HR knowledge or experience upon which to draw to
answer your questions. I can't help wondering, nonetheless, if the change
that you are describing might not be more indicative of an increase in your
demand for skilled people than any sort of reduction in the supply. My
impression, from perusing job postings, is that there is indeed a lot more
demand for "glamour" skills such as .NET. I don't see a lot of companies
looking for Access coders.

--
Randy Harris
tech at promail dot com
I'm pretty sure I know everything that I can remember.

Jan 19 '06 #3

P: n/a
Ted
I've been using Access since the first week verion 1.0 was released for
$89.00. For years I only dabled in it, making applications for work as
needed, but I was involved and even led an Access Developer's Special
Interest Group (SIG) in the greater Seattle area for several years. In
the past couple of years I have really taken it up seriously and I have
even created applications that read emails from the Outlook Inbox and
import those emails and respond to the data found in the emails as well
as automation data transfer between Access, Excel and Word. I'm really
proud of my latest accomplishment which is creating an application that
retrieves data from an accounting program's data files and communicates
with that program's COM application to export sales order information
from the Access application and imports that data into the accounting
program thus eliminating the dual entry that client had to do before.

I read in this discussion thread that other professionals consider
Access to be a lighweight application. I've taken a look at the VB .NET
that came with my Visual Studio Tools for the Microsoft Office System
(I got so I can create run-time distributions of my Access
applications) and it seem to have a lot more limitations on its
abilities than Access does. The only thing I can see that VB .NET has
going for it is that it can create .exe files. But my mde files from
Access along with the runtime version of Access does just fine.
I see a long future yet for Access. Remember back when the rumour mill
said that Access and FoxPro would eventually merge? I see a Visual Fox
Pro out there, in fact my Access application connects to VFP tables
using ODBC, but I don't see the two merging.

Being a casual member of an Access SIG these days I don't make it to a
lot of meetings, but I still see plenty of Access developers out there.
Perhaps they are shy?
I'm contually learning new things with Access and I'm continually
amazed at its abilities such as creating XML files using the Write #
statement.
Ted
Access Developer and proud of it.

Jan 19 '06 #4

P: n/a
IMO, MS has enhanced its promotion of Access as a route through which
non-professionals can develop professional-like applications and, again
IMO, it seems that more and more non-professionals are taking this
route.
In Comp.Databases.Ms-Access the great majority of their (the
non-professionals) questions betray poor manners, incompetence,
laziness, stupidity and lack of education. Many are quite unwilling to
be clear, to explain, or to listen.
What capable and self-respecting person would want to join such a
group?

I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were many
bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there was pride
in new ideas. I think the number of such persons is, perhaps, less than
twenty per cent of its peak, and the pride is almost non-existent. Many
of those remaining have little to contribute except the same tired
ideas they have repeated over and over again, since they learned them
from someone else who has moved on, and some persons here with the
strongest reputations have never contributed an original idea to the
Access community.
What capable and self-respecting person would want to join such a
group?

I consider myself an Access Developer. But the last Access application
I sold was delivered more than three years ago and I wouldn't consider
seeking Access work today. Today I am working with Classic ASP, HTA,
MS-SQL, ADO, JavaScript and Dynamic HTML. Perhaps, my days with Access
are numbered, or already over.

Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary,
George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? Was their collective brilliance
ever replaced?

Jan 19 '06 #5

P: n/a
"Steve" <th*********@gmail.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
Therefore, it is my opinion that some of the .NET people you have
turned down may in fact be completely qualified for working on
your Access databases, and that they simply call themselves
something different than "Access developer".


I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an understanding of
using Access the way it is intended, with bound data.

They are likely to be looking for complicated data grids, and want
to do things mostly unbound and avoiding Jet because they have
prejudices built up from working in a different environment.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 19 '06 #6

P: n/a

"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
IMO, MS has enhanced its promotion of Access as a route through which
non-professionals can develop professional-like applications and, again
IMO, it seems that more and more non-professionals are taking this
route.
In Comp.Databases.Ms-Access the great majority of their (the
non-professionals) questions betray poor manners, incompetence,
laziness, stupidity and lack of education. Many are quite unwilling to
be clear, to explain, or to listen.
What capable and self-respecting person would want to join such a
group?

I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were many
bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there was pride
in new ideas. I think the number of such persons is, perhaps, less than
twenty per cent of its peak, and the pride is almost non-existent. Many
of those remaining have little to contribute except the same tired
ideas they have repeated over and over again, since they learned them
from someone else who has moved on, and some persons here with the
strongest reputations have never contributed an original idea to the
Access community.
What capable and self-respecting person would want to join such a
group?

I consider myself an Access Developer. But the last Access application
I sold was delivered more than three years ago and I wouldn't consider
seeking Access work today. Today I am working with Classic ASP, HTA,
MS-SQL, ADO, JavaScript and Dynamic HTML. Perhaps, my days with Access
are numbered, or already over.

Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary,
George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? Was their collective brilliance
ever replaced?

Lyle,
Many of your postings are cryptic or weird and your sense of humour and
political leanings are hard to understand. Sometimes, I guess, you post
after a drink or two and don't find your own postings so funny in the
morning. However, part of what you say here rings sad but true.
Jan 20 '06 #7

P: n/a
Per TC:
I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the
past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.


I've been doing 100% MS Access development for about 12 years now.

10 years with Vanguard, the mutual fund.

Couple years for various hospitals in the New Jersey/Pennsylvania area.

Currently, a little over a year with another financial outfit called SEI.

My clients ran out of money late last November. They *say* they'll have a few
projects for me soon - but nothing's happening.

What kind of jobs are you looking to fill?
--
PeteCresswell
Jan 20 '06 #8

P: n/a
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
[snip]
Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary,
George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go?

[snip]

Perhaps they got new ideas that didn't involve Access.
--
I don't check the Email account attached
to this message. Send instead to...
RBrandt at Hunter dot com

Jan 20 '06 #9

P: n/a
Access is such a great tool, that many small/medium size business (or bigger
ones too) develop their own application. They depend upon that
application. Their business would be lost without it. It may not work all
that well because they didn't think of everything that someone with more
overall knowledge of the subject could have helped them with.

At some point, they want to improve on the database they are using, but they
are reluctant to move entirely to something else. After all, even if it
could work better, what they have is sort of functional. These are the
people who eventually start looking for some consultant to improve the
Access database or develop a new one. A more high tech, sophisticated user
might have selected a different tool to start off with.

Don't get me wrong. I love Access. It's what I do. I stumbled into it
though. I was a really good Access user who could manipulate macros, and
then a need arose to learn some VBA code. Once the employer found out I
could to this a little, more demands were put on me in that area. I
eventually worked my way into a small business that I operate from my home.
I got experience by doing, but I didn't set out to become an Access
programmer. People who set out to become programmers usually study things
which are know to be "real" programming languages.

So that's why I think you're having trouble finding 'em.

Linda

"TC" <go*********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the
past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.

I think there's great demand right now, and that's keeping the good
developers busy, but that's not enough to explain the situation.
Whenever I post an Access job, I get lots of responses from .NET
developers, back-end database people, and web developers. They all have
the attitude that "I don't really do Access application development,
but Access is easy, so I can handle your job." (No!) The message I'm
getting is that people are choosing to build their skills in .NET, in
back-end database work, and in web development, even though the market
is well-served in those fields, but they aren't building their skills
in Access fast enough to keep up with the demand.

If that is indeed what is happening, I can't find a good explanation
why. Sure, Access has a lightweight reputation, and people don't see it
as a career-maker -- but that has always been the case, yet somehow
there have always been plenty of Access developers in the past. What
has changed now? I can't help but wonder if Access's star has faded to
the point where job seekers eschew it as old technology. That would be
a shame, because I think it will be a very long time before Access
loses its market niche.

Anyway, those are my comments. I wonder if other Access professionals
have made similar (or conflicting) observations.
-TC

Jan 20 '06 #10

P: n/a
rkc
Jack Withenshaw wrote:
Lyle,
Many of your postings are cryptic or weird and your sense of humour and
political leanings are hard to understand. Sometimes, I guess, you post
after a drink or two and don't find your own postings so funny in the
morning. However, part of what you say here rings sad but true.


Which part?
Jan 20 '06 #11

P: n/a
rkc
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary,
George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go?


They've all moved to Greece and are living with the gods on Mt. Olympus.
Their brilliance was blinding ordinary people.

Jan 20 '06 #12

P: n/a
Despite the malice you might have recently read in the newsgroups about me,
I am a very good Access developer. Over the last few years, I have
extensively provided help and support in the newsgroups. On a professional
level, I have taught numerous courses in Access, Excel and Word. Currently,
I am in business to provide customers a resource for help with Access, Excel
and Word. I strive to see that my customers are well satisfied and my fees
are very reasonable. I have provided help to business clients and also over
1100 Access users who came to me from seeing my name in the newsgroups. You
can read some of the comments I have gotten from business clients and Access
users below my signature line.
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1100 users have come from the newsgroups requesting help.
re******@pcdatasheet.com

Here are some comments made by customers I Helped ---

"Steve demonstrated creativity, efficiency and professionalism of the
highest standard. His database programming expertise was invaluable
to us. Steve was a pleasure to work with and displayed a
team-oriented approach to work."
Geordie -- Director of Information Services.

"Wow. This is nice. Very nice. This should help us immensely! Thank you
so much for your help."
Kathy -- Educational Manager at a large Medical Center

"I'm having a real hard time simplifying this stuff for myself and I'm
pleading with my boss to take a loan or whatever we have to do
to get you more hours to handle this properly. I love working with
your guidance. It's almost as if I need you on the phone for every little
thing that pops into my
mind."
John --- IT Manager

".....From that point, Steve, with my input, laid out the overall design and
the steps towards the implementation of the final product which I
delivered to my client just last week. Now, my client wants me to write
additional database systems for them, thanks to Steve who made me
a hero!!"
Jim --- Developer

"Steve is an unique find."
Confidential Customer
And here are some comments made by people from the newsgroups that came to
me and paid me to help them ---

I like it a lot. It does exactly what I want, very good job. Thankyou and I
repeat GOOD JOB

OK, Perfect, well done. See you when I need something more.

Your very helpful email speaks volumes about your level of professionalism.
I will definitely keep your contact information for anyone who needs these
types of services - we very frequently get local businesses
contacting us looking for exactly the type of service you provide.

One word: Wow. I had no clue it could be such an "aesthetically pleasing"
interface. I figured it'd just be a big chart. That's amazing. You've really
helped me cause out a lot, and you've done a tremendous job with this demo.
With this, I can more easily explain how a database could help us out.

Thanks for looking ahead. That is the reason I really feel safe working with
you. couple of the programmers who do work for me, need to be checked to
told to do every step of the way. With you, I just need to tell you what I
need to be done, and you will think ahead of all the problems that might
occur in the process.


"TC" <go*********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the
past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.

I think there's great demand right now, and that's keeping the good
developers busy, but that's not enough to explain the situation.
Whenever I post an Access job, I get lots of responses from .NET
developers, back-end database people, and web developers. They all have
the attitude that "I don't really do Access application development,
but Access is easy, so I can handle your job." (No!) The message I'm
getting is that people are choosing to build their skills in .NET, in
back-end database work, and in web development, even though the market
is well-served in those fields, but they aren't building their skills
in Access fast enough to keep up with the demand.

If that is indeed what is happening, I can't find a good explanation
why. Sure, Access has a lightweight reputation, and people don't see it
as a career-maker -- but that has always been the case, yet somehow
there have always been plenty of Access developers in the past. What
has changed now? I can't help but wonder if Access's star has faded to
the point where job seekers eschew it as old technology. That would be
a shame, because I think it will be a very long time before Access
loses its market niche.

Anyway, those are my comments. I wonder if other Access professionals
have made similar (or conflicting) observations.
-TC

Jan 20 '06 #13

P: n/a

Jack Withenshaw wrote:
Lyle,
... Sometimes, I guess, you post after a drink or two ....


Are you the guy up on the hill with the binoculars?

Jan 20 '06 #14

P: n/a
BB
Like PeteCresswell above, I'm an Access developer who wouldn't mind
helping you out. I'm a freelancer working from my home and have been
working with Access from version 1.0. I also do VB, SQL Server, MySQL,
PHP, etc. and never went to .NET because my clients didn't see the
benefit (and frankly, neither did I).

Anyway, are you looking for full-timers or can I help you from the
comfort of my kitchen table and slippers?

Jan 20 '06 #15

P: n/a
Ha ... you need to learn the art of working full time in your slippers and a
comfy pair of sweats like me.

Linda

"BB" <bb***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Like PeteCresswell above, I'm an Access developer who wouldn't mind
helping you out. I'm a freelancer working from my home and have been
working with Access from version 1.0. I also do VB, SQL Server, MySQL,
PHP, etc. and never went to .NET because my clients didn't see the
benefit (and frankly, neither did I).

Anyway, are you looking for full-timers or can I help you from the
comfort of my kitchen table and slippers?

Jan 20 '06 #16

P: n/a
On 19 Jan 2006 11:30:46 -0800, "TC" <go*********@yahoo.com> wrote:

Our company is in constant hiring mode. Access development is 25-50%
of our Custom Software division. We can still find them, but they are
indeed less available than a few years back. My screener easily goes
through a hundred resumes only to forward 5 to me. 1 of those makes it
to an interview.
I think many developers don't want to miss out on the .Net wave and
become dinosaurs.
As noted by others we clean up a lot of applications started by
good-willing amateurs.

-Tom.

I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the
past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.

I think there's great demand right now, and that's keeping the good
developers busy, but that's not enough to explain the situation.
Whenever I post an Access job, I get lots of responses from .NET
developers, back-end database people, and web developers. They all have
the attitude that "I don't really do Access application development,
but Access is easy, so I can handle your job." (No!) The message I'm
getting is that people are choosing to build their skills in .NET, in
back-end database work, and in web development, even though the market
is well-served in those fields, but they aren't building their skills
in Access fast enough to keep up with the demand.

If that is indeed what is happening, I can't find a good explanation
why. Sure, Access has a lightweight reputation, and people don't see it
as a career-maker -- but that has always been the case, yet somehow
there have always been plenty of Access developers in the past. What
has changed now? I can't help but wonder if Access's star has faded to
the point where job seekers eschew it as old technology. That would be
a shame, because I think it will be a very long time before Access
loses its market niche.

Anyway, those are my comments. I wonder if other Access professionals
have made similar (or conflicting) observations.
-TC


Jan 20 '06 #17

P: n/a
TC
I'm pleased to see so many thoughtful responses to my post. I must say,
however, that you guys haven't given me much reason for optimism.

Tom, I think I need to adopt a screening process like yours. Do you use
an employment agency?
-TC

Jan 20 '06 #18

P: n/a

"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> schreef in bericht news:Iz*******************@newsread1.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1100 users have come from the newsgroups requesting help.
re******@pcdatasheet.com

<snipped resume>
Before you believe all the nonsense that he wrote here look at:
http://home.tiscali.nl/arracom/whoissteve.html (updated)

Arno R
Jan 20 '06 #19

P: n/a
"TC" <go*********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
I'd like to open a discussion about the state of the industry. For the
past year, I've been unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.


I have the opposite problem. There isn't much in the way of freelance in my
neck of the woods (NW England), if it wasn't for my salaried job I'd starve
:o)

I have done the occasional freelance job but it's always been done remotely
via the web.

Keith.
www.keithwilby.com
Jan 20 '06 #20

P: n/a
For all who read this, gp back in this thread and read Lyle Fairfield's
response. He asks,
"Where did Dev, Keri, Pete, Rebecca, Dimitri, Clive, John, Radu, Gary,
George, Chris, Paul, Vanderghast go? Was their collective brilliance
ever replaced?"

A person whose name you see associated with many of the examples in
MVPS.Org/Access wrote to me not long ago and said "I rarely contribute to
the newsgroup anymore. I just got tired dancing with the pigs".

A frequent contributor to the newsgroup wrote not long ago to Arno R,
"If you have anything to contribute to the group, contribute. Your war
with Datasheet is simply pissing and moaning in the wind for the sake of
nothing. Grow up and get a life."

Later he referred to Arno R and some others as "losers" who contributes
little or nothing to the newsgroup.

The answer to Lyle's question is that Arno R, Keith Wilby, John Marshall,
Randy Harris, Rob Oldfield and a few others have driven the collective
brillance away from the newsgroup.
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1100 users have come from the newsgroups requesting help.
re******@pcdatasheet.com
"StopThisAdvertising" <StopThisAdvertising@DataShit> wrote in message
news:43***********************@text.nova.planet.nl ...

"PC Datasheet" <no****@nospam.spam> schreef in bericht
news:Iz*******************@newsread1.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
--
PC Datasheet
Your Resource For Help With Access, Excel And Word Applications
Over 1100 users have come from the newsgroups requesting help.
re******@pcdatasheet.com

<snipped resume>
Before you believe all the nonsense that he wrote here look at:
http://home.tiscali.nl/arracom/whoissteve.html (updated)

Arno R
Jan 20 '06 #21

P: n/a
Since the 1970s I have regularly used (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName))
+ 1) as the chief factor in determining who gets an interview.

Jan 20 '06 #22

P: n/a
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were
many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there
was pride in new ideas. I think the number of such persons is,
perhaps, less than twenty per cent of its peak, and the pride is
almost non-existent. Many of those remaining have little to
contribute except the same tired ideas they have repeated over and
over again, since they learned them from someone else who has
moved on, and some persons here with the strongest reputations
have never contributed an original idea to the Access community.


This is so much bullshit unless you name names, Lyle.

I completely disagree with it.

Solutions to a set of problems are unlikely to change over time if
the underlying application they are hosted in has not changed
significantly. Since A97, there have been no truly major changes in
the basic functionality of Access as a Jet client. Thus, solutions
that worked great way back when still work just great.

Now, Access has added many other features, but about the only one
that has any value is the use of ADO with SQL Server. Most all the
other new Access features (notably, ADPs) have been abandoned as
unusable even by those, like you, were their ardent defenders when
they first came out.

This means that a major core of Access development is still Access
with Jet back ends, and this has been the case for about 10 years.
It should not be surprising, then, that a lot of solutions that
worked in 1996 still work in 2006. Why would someone try to come up
with some creative different way to solve a problem just because the
known solution has been around for a long time?

Is this a part of your rusty code argument again?

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 20 '06 #23

P: n/a
On 19 Jan 2006 22:05:34 -0800, "TC" <go*********@yahoo.com> wrote:

We vary our methods. We're about to try a different agency - this one
is a service that places online ads and screens them for our criteria.
Most of the time the screener is our receptionist. She will also do an
initial email follow-up (salary range, a few pages of source code).

-Tom.
I'm pleased to see so many thoughtful responses to my post. I must say,
however, that you guys haven't given me much reason for optimism.

Tom, I think I need to adopt a screening process like yours. Do you use
an employment agency?
-TC


Jan 20 '06 #24

P: n/a
On 20 Jan 2006 04:51:43 -0800, "Lyle Fairfield"
<ly***********@aim.com> wrote:

I agree it's a black art, and I have made spectacular mistakes. We
often discuss our methodology, and seem to always come back to a more
rational approach. We probably look as much for attitude as for
knowledge.

-Tom.

Since the 1970s I have regularly used (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName))
+ 1) as the chief factor in determining who gets an interview.


Jan 20 '06 #25

P: n/a
I think (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName)) + 1) is quite rational.
I found that many of the A's who were (still) looking for work, had
been considered by my organization and others, but nor hired.
When there are a thousand applicants, we often start at the top as we
consider which we might interview. And the order is often alphabetical.
I found that many Z's had never had an interview or reply to their job
applications. Some seemed very surprised when contacted. And among them
were many stars.

When someone asks my advice about finding employment my first
suggestion is, "Change your last name to Aardvark."

Jan 20 '06 #26

P: n/a
On 20 Jan 2006 04:51:43 -0800, "Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote:
Since the 1970s I have regularly used (Asc("Z") - Asc(UCase(LastName))
+ 1) as the chief factor in determining who gets an interview.


Lyle

Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.
Sometimes I know exactly what you are talking about.

I don't know which worries me more :-)
Wayne Gillespie
Gosford NSW Australia
Jan 20 '06 #27

P: n/a
rkc
David W. Fenton wrote:
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were
many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there
was pride in new ideas. I think the number of such persons is,
perhaps, less than twenty per cent of its peak, and the pride is
almost non-existent. Many of those remaining have little to
contribute except the same tired ideas they have repeated over and
over again, since they learned them from someone else who has
moved on, and some persons here with the strongest reputations
have never contributed an original idea to the Access community.

This is so much bullshit unless you name names, Lyle.

I completely disagree with it.


This is a example of code that was thought to be so brilliant
by the pioneers of Access that it needed to be copyrighted.

'***************** Code Start *******************
'This code was originally written by Dev Ashish
'It is not to be altered or distributed,
'except as part of an application.
'You are free to use it in any application,
'provided the copyright notice is left unchanged.
'
'Code Courtesy of
'Dev Ashish
'
Function fIsFileDIR(stPath As String, _
Optional lngType As Long) _
As Integer
'Fully qualify stPath
'To check for a file
' ?fIsFileDIR("c:\winnt\win.ini")
'To check for a Dir
' ?fIsFileDir("c:\msoffice",vbdirectory)
'
On Error Resume Next
fIsFileDIR = Len(Dir(stPath, lngType)) > 0
End Function
'***************** Code End *********************

Jan 20 '06 #28

P: n/a
rkc
PC Datasheet wrote:
The answer to Lyle's question is that Arno R, Keith Wilby, John Marshall,
Randy Harris, Rob Oldfield and a few others have driven the collective
brillance away from the newsgroup.


The "collective brilliance" were not opposed to ripping new comers
and dipshits like you a new one from time to time. There's nothing new
about that.

Jan 20 '06 #29

P: n/a
rkc <rk*@rochester.yabba.dabba.do.rr.bomb> wrote in
news:YO*********************@twister.nyroc.rr.com:
David W. Fenton wrote:
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there
were many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when
there was pride in new ideas. I think the number of such persons
is, perhaps, less than twenty per cent of its peak, and the pride
is almost non-existent. Many of those remaining have little to
contribute except the same tired ideas they have repeated over
and over again, since they learned them from someone else who has
moved on, and some persons here with the strongest reputations
have never contributed an original idea to the Access community.


This is so much bullshit unless you name names, Lyle.

I completely disagree with it.


This is a example of code that was thought to be so brilliant
by the pioneers of Access that it needed to be copyrighted.

'***************** Code Start *******************
'This code was originally written by Dev Ashish

[snip]

But Dev is one of Lyle's Great Ones Who Once Walked the Earth here
among us mere mortals! How could this be!!!!!

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 20 '06 #30

P: n/a
I think it is not fair that Dev should be held up to ridicule beause of
an opinion I ventured.

****
A function which can be used to check the existence of either a file or
a directory is quite useful, in my opinion.
****
It seems there is some agreement among those who write about Access on
the web.

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 115 for fIsFileDIR. (0.02 seconds)
Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 48 for fIsFileDIR. (0.11 seconds)

****
But perhaps the copyright was forgotten.

Web Results 1 - 9 of about 17 for fIsFileDIR Dev Ashish. (0.04 seconds)

Searched all groups Results 1 - 10 of 10 for fIsFileDIR Dev Ashish
(0.08 seconds)
****
In any case I shall be waiting and watching for the superior function.

Jan 21 '06 #31

P: n/a
David W. Fenton wrote:
But Dev is one of Lyle's Great Ones Who Once Walked the Earth here
among us mere mortals!


Yes, he is.

Jan 21 '06 #32

P: n/a
"David W. Fenton" wrote
I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an
understanding of using Access the way it is intended,
with bound data.
That's been the case for Access' whole life... if the people came from what
was considered a "normal developer" background, they were "babes in the
woods" with regard to databases. They didn't understand Queries or SQL with
Joins, so did a lot of unnecessary work. Add to that the problem that the VB
and C/C++ interface to Jet didn't work well with bound controls...

Actually, .NETters may be a little more enlightened, as Microsoft has
included SQL Server in the ".NET" and "developer" categories. The DBAs and
SQL Server developers have helped the VB.NET and C# crowd to understand
"database" to some degree. On the other hand, I am not sure that the
decision to enhance SQL Server by including the .NET languages along with
T-SQL wasn't a holdover from the "Duh, whutz a database?" days.
They are likely to be looking for complicated data
grids, and want to do things mostly unbound and
avoiding Jet because they have prejudices built up
from working in a different environment.


Yep, I occasionally attend some meetings where .NET is discussed and it
amazes me that some presumably-knowlegeable business developers act as if
"glitz and glitter" and non-standard ways of presenting data to the user
actually are useful in solving business problems.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
Jan 21 '06 #33

P: n/a
rkc
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
A function which can be used to check the existence of either a file or
a directory is quite useful, in my opinion.
****
Lyle, it's the thinest of thin wrappers around the Dir() function.

A name change.
In any case I shall be waiting and watching for the superior function.


I'll try to think up a better name.



Jan 21 '06 #34

P: n/a
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in
news:fffAf.86$Me5.55@trnddc05:
"David W. Fenton" wrote
I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an
understanding of using Access the way it is intended,
with bound data.


That's been the case for Access' whole life... if the people came
from what was considered a "normal developer" background, they
were "babes in the woods" with regard to databases. They didn't
understand Queries or SQL with Joins, so did a lot of unnecessary
work. Add to that the problem that the VB and C/C++ interface to
Jet didn't work well with bound controls...

Actually, .NETters may be a little more enlightened, as Microsoft
has included SQL Server in the ".NET" and "developer" categories.
The DBAs and SQL Server developers have helped the VB.NET and C#
crowd to understand "database" to some degree. On the other hand,
I am not sure that the decision to enhance SQL Server by including
the .NET languages along with T-SQL wasn't a holdover from the
"Duh, whutz a database?" days.


I agree with all of that.

But none of it has anything to do with *data-bound* controls, which
until recently, were hardly found at all in any MS products other
than Access. Well, that's not entirely true -- there have been
data-bound controls for VB, but my understanding was that they wree
substantially harder to use than Access's bound forms/controls, and
that many non-Access developers just didn't have the right kind of
thinking for bound data.

This is where the WE MUST USE UNBOUND FORMS!!!! hysteria comes from,
I think, as well as the idiotic resistance to Jet.
They are likely to be looking for complicated data
grids, and want to do things mostly unbound and
avoiding Jet because they have prejudices built up
from working in a different environment.


Yep, I occasionally attend some meetings where .NET is discussed
and it amazes me that some presumably-knowlegeable business
developers act as if "glitz and glitter" and non-standard ways of
presenting data to the user actually are useful in solving
business problems.


I'm just going on what I read of the technologies and the kinds of
issues that people coming to this newsgroup seem to bring.

Acess is different.

And in a good way.

But many of them can't abandon habits of that that they've acquired
in the other development environments. In those other environments,
I have not doubt that their habits are superb and crucial to getting
things done efficiently. With Access, they have to change they way
they think, or they will always end up fighting against the basic
architecture of the whole development platform.

Thus, I don't really think that the community of .NET developers is
going to be a fertile ground for finding potential Access
developers, except insofar that some portion of them will be quite
smart and adaptable and have a strong understand of database
interaction that will carry over nicely into Access.

But I don't know that there will be any higher numbers of those
types of people than there always have been in any non-Access
development environment.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 21 '06 #35

P: n/a
rkc wrote:
Lyle, it's the thinest of thin wrappers around the Dir() function.


True. But, if it were not for that entry on the Access web a number of
years ago (98 or 99, I believe), I would not have been able to do some
of the things I did then.

So I'm grateful it was there for me when I needed it. Now of course, it
takes more effort for me to sneeze than it does to use the dir()
function. But not back then.

And I think the comments on it you're sort of disparaging were just
standard bolierplate (a ha! Thanks to Terry for explaining that term to
me a few months ago!) 8)

--
Tim http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal/
^o<
/#) "Burp-beep, burp-beep, burp-beep?" - Quaker Jake
/^^ "Whatcha doin?" - Ditto "TIM-MAY!!" - Me
Jan 21 '06 #36

P: n/a
rkc
Lyle Fairfield wrote:
I think it is not fair that Dev should be held up to ridicule beause of
an opinion I ventured.


My ridicule was triggered by the copyright notice in that trivial piece
of code. I see now, after browsing the site at mvps for a bit, that the
copyright notices are probably something that was decided should be put
in all the code posted there.
Jan 21 '06 #37

P: n/a
You just don't get it do you. There are a handful of us who have published a
lot of code over the years. If we do not include a copyright notice then
several things are guaranteed to happen.

1) Our code will be reposted on someone else's site as their own.

2) Our code will be packaged and sold on an Access Utilities CD.

Does a notice of copyright stop every individual seeking to gain something
from our work? Definately not, but it does stop some of them. Further it
gives us some basis to go after the most blatant misuse of said code.

Does the intellectual property of Dev's source code you posted warrant a
notice of copyright? By itself, certainly not. As part of Dev's larger body
of work...yes. As part of a routine to ensure each published
function/project is copyrighted to try to protect against the two issues
outlined above...yes.

I would point out how this could happen to all of the source code you have
posted over the years, but that's right, you haven't posted any.

--

Stephen Lebans
http://www.lebans.com
Access Code, Tips and Tricks
Please respond only to the newsgroups so everyone can benefit.
"rkc" <rk*@rochester.yabba.dabba.do.rr.bomb> wrote in message
news:YO*********************@twister.nyroc.rr.com. ..
David W. Fenton wrote:
"Lyle Fairfield" <ly***********@aim.com> wrote in
news:11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
I became a member of the group (Access Developers) when there were
many bright, capable and proud Access Developers, and when there
was pride in new ideas. I think the number of such persons is,
perhaps, less than twenty per cent of its peak, and the pride is
almost non-existent. Many of those remaining have little to
contribute except the same tired ideas they have repeated over and
over again, since they learned them from someone else who has
moved on, and some persons here with the strongest reputations
have never contributed an original idea to the Access community.

This is so much bullshit unless you name names, Lyle.

I completely disagree with it.


This is a example of code that was thought to be so brilliant
by the pioneers of Access that it needed to be copyrighted.

'***************** Code Start *******************
'This code was originally written by Dev Ashish
'It is not to be altered or distributed,
'except as part of an application.
'You are free to use it in any application,
'provided the copyright notice is left unchanged.
'
'Code Courtesy of
'Dev Ashish
'
Function fIsFileDIR(stPath As String, _
Optional lngType As Long) _
As Integer
'Fully qualify stPath
'To check for a file
' ?fIsFileDIR("c:\winnt\win.ini")
'To check for a Dir
' ?fIsFileDir("c:\msoffice",vbdirectory)
'
On Error Resume Next
fIsFileDIR = Len(Dir(stPath, lngType)) > 0
End Function
'***************** Code End *********************

Jan 21 '06 #38

P: n/a
rkc
Stephen Lebans wrote:
I would point out how this could happen to all of the source code you have
posted over the years, but that's right, you haven't posted any.


Nothing brilliant.
Jan 21 '06 #39

P: n/a
"David W. Fenton" wrote
. . . there have been data-bound controls for VB,
but my understanding was that they were
substantially harder to use than Access's bound
forms/controls, and that many non-Access devel-
opers just didn't have the right kind of
thinking for bound data.


Both of these are _under_statements, I think. The VB data bound controls not
only were harder to use, they didn't work all that well... and that
difficulty was compounded by the "non-bound-data" thinking of most VB
developers.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
Jan 21 '06 #40

P: n/a


Here I am! I only want to do Access programming, I found plenty of
people in my area that needed help fixing, improving and creating
Access databases. Now a year ago we moved to a new area, due to my
husband's job...I'm hard pressed to find ads for admin or clerical work
that involves Access, let alone real Access work. I've talked to the
employement outfits and they almost never get a call for Access...the
one tech employment agency won't touch me because their clients always
want more then Access. I just do Access and I've made a living of
it...I hope to continue learning and working with Access. Any
suggestions for finding Access work would be appreciated.

A Continuing THANK YOU for the talented people of this group that are
so giving of help and information.
Debbie

Jan 21 '06 #41

P: n/a
"TC" wrote
I'd like to open a discussion about the state
of the industry. For the past year, I've been
unable to find competent Access developers
available for hire. I'm worried about that.


I think it is a combination of problems.

A few years ago, though not at the same time in all US locations, the
business climate "cooled" rather drastically. In the Dallas - Fort Worth
area, where I live, the pullback became more obvious around 2000. Along with
that retrenchment, the need (and funding) for new projects or enhancements
dwindled, so there were not as many jobs or contracts. I know competent
Access developers who reported to me that they were working for half the
rate they had gotten a year previously, and felt lucky to get any work.

Microsoft launched their DotNet initiative, with massive hype, about that
same time. I am sure it was devastating to some people in Microsoft to find
that developers using their product were no longer recognized by the
"powers-that-be" as being "real developers" but some sort of hobbyists...
even though they were doing development all day long, every day. That
advertising, attitude, etc. had a significant effect over time.

Over time, the business climate has improved and the need for developers has
increased. But, quite a few Access developers moved on to other careers, or
to IT platform jobs, or to DotNet or Java, and have not found sufficient
incentive to move back. Those of us who "rode it out" in one way or another
are finding more work now than in the past few years.

Without a good, steady supply of Access developers, there is less incentive
for businesses to choose Access; without projects in Access, there is less
incentive for developers to work in Access. (Unlike the heyday of classic
VB, when, in my area, a good Access developer was likely to make more than a
good VB developer, DotNet jobs tend to pay more because they tend to be
concentrated in the "enterprise" market.)

If you read the trade magazines, you'll find the emphasis, even when it is
on extreme programming, pair programming, etc. to be at a level of coding
detail that Access programmers just don't have to deal with. I doubt those
object-oriented programmers are going to have the kind of database "smarts"
that will let them move into an Access Rapid Application Development
environment without a good deal of attitude adjustment.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP

Jan 21 '06 #42

P: n/a
sigh!

Jan 22 '06 #43

P: n/a
If you are having problems getting the right staff I would suggest you
reconsider the database designers especially if they are good
RELATIONAL database designers.

They will get Access and should be able to be productive very quickly.

Nearly 15 years ago it took me a long weekend to realise that I could
give up DB2 and the corporate world and support the small business
sector using Access/Jet.

Any good relational database designer (especially with a smattering of
VB) should be useful within a month.

Slainte
Craig Alexander Morrison

Jan 22 '06 #44

P: n/a
"I have the opposite problem. There isn't much in the way of freelance
in my
neck of the woods (NW England)"

I'll bear that out, I am now based in Dumfriesshire and if it wasn't
for my clients dating back to when I was based in London and The South
East I would not be able to make a living on the local economy of the
Border counties.

Indeed I am now more into property development rather than database
development.

Slainte
Craig Alexander Morrison

Jan 22 '06 #45

P: n/a

You have no idea what you are talking about, which is hardly surprising as
you were not around at the time.

You will notice that there is a similar notice attached to virtually every
piece of code on the Access Web. This was something Dev did after the work
of the people who contributed to the site and the work put in by Dev to
build and maintain the site was ripped off by certain people. There was a
discussion about the issue between the contributors at the time and it was
decided that adding the notice you cite may act as a deterrent to further
rip-off merchants.

My personal opinion was and always has been if I post it then you can use
it, but please try to remember to attribute, some people are a bit more
protective of their code though.

If you had any intention of presenting a balanced view of Dev's
contributions you could have referenced the INetlib or any one of the other
major pieces of code he has posted here or on his web site but of course
your only intention was to try to appear smart, unfortunately you just come
over as smart-arse.
--

Terry Kreft
"rkc" <rk*@rochester.yabba.dabba.do.rr.bomb> wrote in message
news:YO*********************@twister.nyroc.rr.com. ..
<SNIP>

This is a example of code that was thought to be so brilliant
by the pioneers of Access that it needed to be copyrighted.

'***************** Code Start *******************
'This code was originally written by Dev Ashish
'It is not to be altered or distributed,
'except as part of an application.
'You are free to use it in any application,
'provided the copyright notice is left unchanged.
'
'Code Courtesy of
'Dev Ashish
'
Function fIsFileDIR(stPath As String, _
Optional lngType As Long) _
As Integer
'Fully qualify stPath
'To check for a file
' ?fIsFileDIR("c:\winnt\win.ini")
'To check for a Dir
' ?fIsFileDir("c:\msoffice",vbdirectory)
'
On Error Resume Next
fIsFileDIR = Len(Dir(stPath, lngType)) > 0
End Function
'***************** Code End *********************

Jan 24 '06 #46

P: n/a
The VB (classic) data bound controls/methods are buggy and to be honest a
nightmare to implement.

When I started doing VB database stuff I used the data bound controls and
spent 3 times as long (at least) working round the bugs than I do by just
doing everything unbound.

The problem is, as you say, people coming the other way don't understand
that Access was written to be used in bound mode and does it extremely well.
--

Terry Kreft
"David W. Fenton" <XX*******@dfenton.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn**********************************@127.0.0. 1...
"Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not> wrote in
news:fffAf.86$Me5.55@trnddc05:
"David W. Fenton" wrote
I can't imagine that .NET developers would have an
understanding of using Access the way it is intended,
with bound data.


That's been the case for Access' whole life... if the people came
from what was considered a "normal developer" background, they
were "babes in the woods" with regard to databases. They didn't
understand Queries or SQL with Joins, so did a lot of unnecessary
work. Add to that the problem that the VB and C/C++ interface to
Jet didn't work well with bound controls...

Actually, .NETters may be a little more enlightened, as Microsoft
has included SQL Server in the ".NET" and "developer" categories.
The DBAs and SQL Server developers have helped the VB.NET and C#
crowd to understand "database" to some degree. On the other hand,
I am not sure that the decision to enhance SQL Server by including
the .NET languages along with T-SQL wasn't a holdover from the
"Duh, whutz a database?" days.


I agree with all of that.

But none of it has anything to do with *data-bound* controls, which
until recently, were hardly found at all in any MS products other
than Access. Well, that's not entirely true -- there have been
data-bound controls for VB, but my understanding was that they wree
substantially harder to use than Access's bound forms/controls, and
that many non-Access developers just didn't have the right kind of
thinking for bound data.

This is where the WE MUST USE UNBOUND FORMS!!!! hysteria comes from,
I think, as well as the idiotic resistance to Jet.
They are likely to be looking for complicated data
grids, and want to do things mostly unbound and
avoiding Jet because they have prejudices built up
from working in a different environment.


Yep, I occasionally attend some meetings where .NET is discussed
and it amazes me that some presumably-knowlegeable business
developers act as if "glitz and glitter" and non-standard ways of
presenting data to the user actually are useful in solving
business problems.


I'm just going on what I read of the technologies and the kinds of
issues that people coming to this newsgroup seem to bring.

Acess is different.

And in a good way.

But many of them can't abandon habits of that that they've acquired
in the other development environments. In those other environments,
I have not doubt that their habits are superb and crucial to getting
things done efficiently. With Access, they have to change they way
they think, or they will always end up fighting against the basic
architecture of the whole development platform.

Thus, I don't really think that the community of .NET developers is
going to be a fertile ground for finding potential Access
developers, except insofar that some portion of them will be quite
smart and adaptable and have a strong understand of database
interaction that will carry over nicely into Access.

But I don't know that there will be any higher numbers of those
types of people than there always have been in any non-Access
development environment.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/

Jan 24 '06 #47

P: n/a
Per Terry Kreft:
The VB (classic) data bound controls/methods are buggy and to be honest a
nightmare to implement.

When I started doing VB database stuff I used the data bound controls and
spent 3 times as long (at least) working round the bugs than I do by just
doing everything unbound.


Secondhand quote from an MS rep: "Bound controls are the spawn of Satan."

Probably at least partially tongue-in-cheek... but still...
--
PeteCresswell
Jan 24 '06 #48

P: n/a
I work for a large, well-known non-profit in New York City. We have an
Access database that we give away for free to other non-profits to
help them run their program work. It's a complex database, and is
extremely customizable. Because of that, each installation and
customization requires a knowledgeable Access developer.

We're looking to grow the community of developers, around the world,
who know Access and know our product. Because the database is
open-source (in the sense that all of our code is available for free,
and you're free to modify it), we are not looking to corral developers
and have them all work through us. Instead, we're looking for Access
developers to work on their own, with the support of the developer
community, charging their own rates, building (and building upon) their
own reputations as developers.

We've experienced a similar difficulty in finding really good Access
developers.

Jeremy

Jan 24 '06 #49

P: n/a
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in
news:i2********************************@4ax.com:
Per Terry Kreft:
The VB (classic) data bound controls/methods are buggy and to be
honest a nightmare to implement.

When I started doing VB database stuff I used the data bound
controls and spent 3 times as long (at least) working round the
bugs than I do by just doing everything unbound.


Secondhand quote from an MS rep: "Bound controls are the spawn of
Satan."

Probably at least partially tongue-in-cheek... but still...


Some of the people who are most ignorant of Access are employees of
Microsoft.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.dfenton.com/
usenet at dfenton dot com http://www.dfenton.com/DFA/
Jan 24 '06 #50

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