Flaws in Access (resource)

[Allen Browne]

To help you avoid some of the more common and long-standing bugs in Access,
the page:
http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
contains a new section entitled, "Flaws in Access".

The section currently identifies 9 problem areas, with others to be added.
It includes a sample Access 2000 database to demonstrate several of the
flaws. If you have been working with Access, you will be aware of some of
them. Our aim is to prevent you grief by pin-pointing the rocks under the
surface.

Best wishes for your Accessing in 2004.

--
Allen Browne - Microsoft MVP. Perth, Western Australia.
Tips for Access users - http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
Reply to group, rather than allenbrowne at mvps dot org.

[Allen Browne]

Hi Steve. Thanks for your response.

I have only experienced this as a display issue.
The problem exists in A2000 (even with SP3), and A2002 (even with SP2), but
I am not seeing it in A2003.

Here is a temporary link example of the issue as I see it:
http://allenbrowne.com/BadMemoFooter.zip

If you can show me an example that is more than a display issue, I am *very*
interested, and will take it up with Microsoft.

Thanks.

--
Allen Browne - Microsoft MVP. Perth, Western Australia.
Tips for Access users - http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
Reply to group, rather than allenbrowne at mvps dot org.

"Steve Jorgensen" <no****@nospam. nospam> wrote in message
news:3i******** *************** *********@4ax.c om...

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:13:27 +0800, "Allen Browne"
<Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote:

Hi Steve.

Yes, I had that issue in Access 2000, but could not repro. quickly in A2003.Have you seen it in the current version?
No, but it is definitely still a problem in A2002.

It was really a display issue where Access displayed the old data for a memofield in the form footer section. As soon as you clicked in the field to
edit it, the text box was updated, so there was no danger of overwriting

it.
I've had the problem in both 2000 and 2002 where it actually writes to the
wrong record, and is not just a display problem.

I'm interested if you can repro in A2003.
Me too, but I don't have it. I could try it with the beta, but the

results won't be definitive.

[Allen Browne]

Hi michka.

Appreciate your response, and can understand your perspective, and your
experience in internationaliz ation. From my perspective is is a bug, though
I am willing to reconsider.

I became aware of this issue when I developed a database for a client in the
UK some time back. When he received the database, he asked, "What's these
weird formats that force it to use dollars?" My copy did not display any
"weird formats" - just the word "Currency". For a developer, it's a bug.

The behaviour also contradicts the documentation which claims Currency will:
"... follow the settings specified in the regional settings of Windows
for negative amounts, decimal and currency symbols, and decimal
places."

--
Allen Browne - Microsoft MVP. Perth, Western Australia.
Tips for Access users - http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
Reply to group, rather than allenbrowne at mvps dot org.

"Michael (michka) Kaplan [MS]" <mi*****@online .microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:3f******** @news.microsoft .com...

Nice list, though one thing:

The "currency format" issue is NOT a bug. It is entirely by design and it
MUST be this way. An application that turned 1000 US Dollars into 1000
Italian Lira is an app that was produced by a company that is going to go
out of business.... think about.

This design was championed by the International Program Manager back in
Access 2.0, and she was entirely right. I would highly recommend that this
item be taken off of the list of bugs and put in a more appropriate list of "issues to not trip over" as the current design is correct an any other
design is an incredibly lame an ill-conceived notion.
--
MichKa [MS]
NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Development
Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies

This posting is provided "AS IS" with
no warranties, and confers no rights.
"Allen Browne" <Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote in message
news:3f******** **************@ freenews.iinet. net.au...

To help you avoid some of the more common and long-standing bugs in

Access,

the page:
http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
contains a new section entitled, "Flaws in Access".

The section currently identifies 9 problem areas, with others to be added. It includes a sample Access 2000 database to demonstrate several of the
flaws. If you have been working with Access, you will be aware of some of them. Our aim is to prevent you grief by pin-pointing the rocks under the surface.

[Steve Jorgensen]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:05:36 +0800, "Allen Browne"
<Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote:

Hi Steve. Thanks for your response.

I have only experienced this as a display issue.
The problem exists in A2000 (even with SP3), and A2002 (even with SP2), but
I am not seeing it in A2003.

Here is a temporary link example of the issue as I see it:
http://allenbrowne.com/BadMemoFooter.zip

If you can show me an example that is more than a display issue, I am *very*
interested, and will take it up with Microsoft.

Thanks.

I just attempted to repro the problem, and did not do so. The display problem
appeared immediately, but the behavior was a display problem only, as you
described. I'm reasonably certain, however, the problem did appear as I
described it in other cases. As I recall, the last system this happened on
was using linked tables to a SQL Server back-end, so that could be part of the
equation.

[Wayne Morgan]

Allen, it seems to me that the way this is handled may be difference between
a database that has data and one that doesn't. If I have the database full
of values in US dollars, changing the format to Pounds but leaving the
numbers the same would be a problem. However, if I'm distributing a blank
database then it would be nice to have the formatting change since any
numbers added would be in the currency of the computer that the app is
running on.

--
Wayne Morgan
Microsoft Access MVP
"Allen Browne" <Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote in message
news:3f******** **************@ freenews.iinet. net.au...

Hi michka.

Appreciate your response, and can understand your perspective, and your
experience in internationaliz ation. From my perspective is is a bug, though I am willing to reconsider.

I became aware of this issue when I developed a database for a client in the UK some time back. When he received the database, he asked, "What's these
weird formats that force it to use dollars?" My copy did not display any
"weird formats" - just the word "Currency". For a developer, it's a bug.

The behaviour also contradicts the documentation which claims Currency will: "... follow the settings specified in the regional settings of Windows for negative amounts, decimal and currency symbols, and decimal
places."

--
Allen Browne - Microsoft MVP. Perth, Western Australia.
Tips for Access users - http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
Reply to group, rather than allenbrowne at mvps dot org.

"Michael (michka) Kaplan [MS]" <mi*****@online .microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:3f******** @news.microsoft .com...

Nice list, though one thing:

The "currency format" issue is NOT a bug. It is entirely by design and it

MUST be this way. An application that turned 1000 US Dollars into 1000
Italian Lira is an app that was produced by a company that is going to go out of business.... think about.

This design was championed by the International Program Manager back in
Access 2.0, and she was entirely right. I would highly recommend that this item be taken off of the list of bugs and put in a more appropriate list

of

"issues to not trip over" as the current design is correct an any other
design is an incredibly lame an ill-conceived notion.
--
MichKa [MS]
NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Development
Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies

This posting is provided "AS IS" with
no warranties, and confers no rights.
"Allen Browne" <Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote in message
news:3f******** **************@ freenews.iinet. net.au...

To help you avoid some of the more common and long-standing bugs in

Access,

the page:
http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
contains a new section entitled, "Flaws in Access".

The section currently identifies 9 problem areas, with others to be

added. It includes a sample Access 2000 database to demonstrate several of the flaws. If you have been working with Access, you will be aware of some of them. Our aim is to prevent you grief by pin-pointing the rocks under the surface.

[Tom van Stiphout]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:41:17 +0800, "Allen Browne"
<Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote:

Would you consider some "Operation should use updatable query" items
for your list? For example there is one in this category where a table
is updated with the results of a totals query.

-Tom.
To Repro:
Northwind database.
Create new query QtySoldPerProdu ct:
SELECT [Order Details].[ProductID], Sum([Order Details].[Quantity]) AS
SumOfQuantity
FROM [Order Details]
GROUP BY [Order Details].[ProductID];

Create new query:
UPDATE QtySoldPerProdu ct INNER JOIN Products ON
QtySoldPerProdu ct.ProductID = Products.Produc tID SET
Products.Reorde rLevel = [SumOfQuantity];

To help you avoid some of the more common and long-standing bugs in Access,
the page:
http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
contains a new section entitled, "Flaws in Access".

The section currently identifies 9 problem areas, with others to be added.
It includes a sample Access 2000 database to demonstrate several of the
flaws. If you have been working with Access, you will be aware of some of
them. Our aim is to prevent you grief by pin-pointing the rocks under the
surface.

Best wishes for your Accessing in 2004.

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan [MS]]

And THIS is the crux. If I have to choose between a pattern that will
corrupt existing data and a patern that will confuse developers who ship
internationally for the first time, I would have to be a a fool to want the
latter rather than the former.
It is NOT a bug -- it is 100% PEBCAK. Please reconsider.
--
MichKa [MS]
NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Development
Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies

This posting is provided "AS IS" with
no warranties, and confers no rights.
"Wayne Morgan" <co************ *************** @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ak******** *******@newssvr 16.news.prodigy .com...

Allen, it seems to me that the way this is handled may be difference between a database that has data and one that doesn't. If I have the database full
of values in US dollars, changing the format to Pounds but leaving the
numbers the same would be a problem. However, if I'm distributing a blank
database then it would be nice to have the formatting change since any
numbers added would be in the currency of the computer that the app is
running on.

--
Wayne Morgan
Microsoft Access MVP
"Allen Browne" <Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote in message
news:3f******** **************@ freenews.iinet. net.au...

Hi michka.

Appreciate your response, and can understand your perspective, and your
experience in internationaliz ation. From my perspective is is a bug,

though

I am willing to reconsider.

I became aware of this issue when I developed a database for a client in

the

UK some time back. When he received the database, he asked, "What's these

weird formats that force it to use dollars?" My copy did not display any
"weird formats" - just the word "Currency". For a developer, it's a bug.

The behaviour also contradicts the documentation which claims Currency

will:

"... follow the settings specified in the regional settings of

Windows

for negative amounts, decimal and currency symbols, and decimal
places."

--
Allen Browne - Microsoft MVP. Perth, Western Australia.
Tips for Access users - http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
Reply to group, rather than allenbrowne at mvps dot org.

"Michael (michka) Kaplan [MS]" <mi*****@online .microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:3f******** @news.microsoft .com...

Nice list, though one thing:

The "currency format" issue is NOT a bug. It is entirely by design and it MUST be this way. An application that turned 1000 US Dollars into 1000
Italian Lira is an app that was produced by a company that is going to go out of business.... think about.

This design was championed by the International Program Manager back in Access 2.0, and she was entirely right. I would highly recommend that this item be taken off of the list of bugs and put in a more appropriate list of

"issues to not trip over" as the current design is correct an any

other design is an incredibly lame an ill-conceived notion.
--
MichKa [MS]
NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Development
Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies

This posting is provided "AS IS" with
no warranties, and confers no rights.
"Allen Browne" <Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote in message
news:3f******** **************@ freenews.iinet. net.au...
> To help you avoid some of the more common and long-standing bugs in
Access,
> the page:
> http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
> contains a new section entitled, "Flaws in Access".
>
> The section currently identifies 9 problem areas, with others to be

added.

> It includes a sample Access 2000 database to demonstrate several of the > flaws. If you have been working with Access, you will be aware of

some of

> them. Our aim is to prevent you grief by pin-pointing the rocks

under the

> surface.

[Steve Jorgensen]

Well, that's certainly a severe annoyance and a difference from ASNI behavior,
but it is a design limitation, not a bug. I'm not saying it's unimportant,
but it seems to me that a list that includes such items would be a different
and vastly larger list. Perhaps, now would be a good time to start a new
Access annoyances thread, so we can chat about things like this and how to
best work around them.

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 06:53:30 -0700, Tom van Stiphout <to*****@no.spa m.cox.net>
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:41:17 +0800, "Allen Browne"
<Al*********@S eeSig.Invalid> wrote:

Would you consider some "Operation should use updatable query" items
for your list? For example there is one in this category where a table
is updated with the results of a totals query.

-Tom.
To Repro:
Northwind database.
Create new query QtySoldPerProdu ct:
SELECT [Order Details].[ProductID], Sum([Order Details].[Quantity]) AS
SumOfQuantit y
FROM [Order Details]
GROUP BY [Order Details].[ProductID];

Create new query:
UPDATE QtySoldPerProdu ct INNER JOIN Products ON
QtySoldPerProd uct.ProductID = Products.Produc tID SET
Products.Reord erLevel = [SumOfQuantity];

To help you avoid some of the more common and long-standing bugs in Access,
the page:
http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
contains a new section entitled, "Flaws in Access".

The section currently identifies 9 problem areas, with others to be added.
It includes a sample Access 2000 database to demonstrate several of the
flaws. If you have been working with Access, you will be aware of some of
them. Our aim is to prevent you grief by pin-pointing the rocks under the
surface.

Best wishes for your Accessing in 2004.

[Allen Browne]

After reflection, the page regarding the currency format has been relocated
under "traps" rather than "flaws".

I accept your argument that this is probably by design, as it is unlikely
that this behaviour could arise spontaneously (i.e. as a bug).

I do not accept that it is an appropriate design choice to have Access
tampering with the properties we set.

--
Allen Browne - Microsoft MVP. Perth, Western Australia.
Tips for Access users - http://allenbrowne.com/tips.html
Reply to group, rather than allenbrowne at mvps dot org.

"Michael (michka) Kaplan [MS]" <mi*****@online .microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:3f******** @news.microsoft .com...

And THIS is the crux. If I have to choose between a pattern that will
corrupt existing data and a patern that will confuse developers who ship
internationally for the first time, I would have to be a a fool to want the latter rather than the former.
It is NOT a bug -- it is 100% PEBCAK. Please reconsider.
--
MichKa [MS]
NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Development
Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies

"Michael (michka) Kaplan [MS]" <mi*****@online .microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:3f******** @news.microsoft .com...
> Nice list, though one thing:
>
> The "currency format" issue is NOT a bug. It is entirely by design and

it

> MUST be this way. An application that turned 1000 US Dollars into

1000 > Italian Lira is an app that was produced by a company that is going

to go

> out of business.... think about.
>
> This design was championed by the International Program Manager back in > Access 2.0, and she was entirely right. I would highly recommend

that this

> item be taken off of the list of bugs and put in a more appropriate

list of
> "issues to not trip over" as the current design is correct an any other > design is an incredibly lame an ill-conceived notion.
>
>
> --
> MichKa [MS]
> NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Development
> Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with
> no warranties, and confers no rights.

[Michael \(michka\) Kaplan [MS]]

"Allen Browne" <Al*********@Se eSig.Invalid> wrote...

After reflection, the page regarding the currency format has been relocated under "traps" rather than "flaws".
Cool.
I accept your argument that this is probably by design, as it is unlikely
that this behaviour could arise spontaneously (i.e. as a bug).
Probably? <sigh>

I have seen the code, and I have had lunch with the woman who spec'ed the
original design. She was right.
I do not accept that it is an appropriate design choice to have Access
tampering with the properties we set.

Um, it does not. Try creating the table, changing the settings, viewing the
changed prop, changing the settings back, and then viewing the prop. It
changes back to the original "Currency" setting!!!

You will see that ACCESS goes out of its way to keep people from trying to
change application behavior out from under it due to a simple change in
config settings. ACCESS is not tampering with anything; it goes out of its
way to respect the settings!
--
MichKa [MS]
NLS Collation/Locale/Keyboard Development
Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies

This posting is provided "AS IS" with
no warranties, and confers no rights.

[NB]

G'day

Regarding: losing data when closing a form

What about closing the form with the Close command on the menu bar?
Would it cause the problem?

Thanks
NB