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SQL Server Conversion

A client is panicking about their large Access application, which
has been running smoothly with 100s of thousands of records for
quite some time. They have a big project in the next year that will
lead to a lot of use of the database and the adding of quite a lot
of new data (though I can't conceive of them adding more than than
10s of thousands of records, which won't change the current
performance profile at all).

If there is a SQL Server conversion, my question is this:

1. just do an ODBC upsizing, OR

2. convert the whole damned thing to ADO.

Obviously, #1 is going to be a lot easier. Yes, I'm aware of a
number of places where I'll need to drastically alter the way the
application works (though it nowhere loads any large number of
records, of course). And I can easily think of several areas where
server-side processing will vastly improve performance.

My gut says to change as little as necessary, and just go with ODBC
linked tables and then fix all the things that are inefficient when
converted. This means a lot of stored procedures.

The one unbound form (where the highest volume of data entry takes
place) is now all done with DAO. Perhaps it would benefit from
conversion to ADO? Indeed, it is part of a UI with a bound list
subform and an unbound detail subform, so I could use a single ADO
recordset for the recordsource of both (or are form recordsources
DAO by default?), perhaps (I've thought of that one for quite some
time).

Any suggestions as to how to answer this question for myself? What
specific things should I look at to help evaluate the question?

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Nov 12 '05
26 3826
"Rick Brandt" <ri*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in news:bo5lvh$17r aja$1@ID-
98015.news.uni-berlin.de:
"David W. Fenton" <dX********@bwa y.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:94******** *************** ****@24.168.128 .86...
mi************* *****@btinterne t.com (Mike MacSween) wrote in
<3f************ ***********@new s.aaisp.net.uk> :
>"David W. Fenton" <dX********@bwa y.net.invalid> wrote in message
>
>> Rewriting as an ADP means starting from scratch in an
>> environment I know zilch about, and one that is buggy and
>> inconsistent.
>
>I'm interested you say that David. Somewhere fairly high on my
>'next thing to learn more about' is ADPs. It _appears_ to be a
>logical move, for an Access developer, towards client/server. What
>problems have you found/heard about, with ADPs.


Were it a brand-new application with a high seat count (50+) and
SQL Server guaranteed as the back end and heavy editing, then I'd
consider learning how to use an ADP.

So far as I can see, all an ADP gets you is a "Jetless"
environment, which is not worth too much, so far as I can see.


I've only dabbled with ADPs, but one thing I saw which was another "con"
was that apparently the rule is "one ADP = one Database". Can someone
correct me if I'm wrong here? The first thing you are as asked to do is
indicate "the" database to use. Well our SQL Server has about a dozen
databases on it and many apps require connecting to more than one of them.
Is this not possible with an ADP?

I mean I'm sure I can connect to other dbs in code and such, but as far as
the SQL Server objects being visible within the ADP project itself can
there be only one? This seems like a pretty big restriction if so.


Well Designed ADP-SQL Server Apps will edit, add and delete data via Stored
Procedures and/or Views. Stored Procedures and Views can access tables from
any database on the server (or linked server for that matter) given adequate
permissions.

Example from Books On Line:
SELECT Cst.FirstName, Cst.LastName
FROM Northwind.dbo.C ustomers AS Cst

--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)
Nov 12 '05 #21
Lyle Fairfield <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4:
Well Designed ADP-SQL Server Apps will edit, add and delete data via
Stored Procedures and/or Views. Stored Procedures and Views can access
tables from any database on the server (or linked server for that
matter) given adequate permissions.

Example from Books On Line:
SELECT Cst.FirstName, Cst.LastName
FROM Northwind.dbo.C ustomers AS Cst


I neglected to point out the ADP Forms and Reports can be bound to Stored
Procedures and Views.

--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)
Nov 12 '05 #22
"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4...
Lyle Fairfield <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4:
Well Designed ADP-SQL Server Apps will edit, add and delete data via
Stored Procedures and/or Views. Stored Procedures and Views can access
tables from any database on the server (or linked server for that
matter) given adequate permissions.

Example from Books On Line:
SELECT Cst.FirstName, Cst.LastName
FROM Northwind.dbo.C ustomers AS Cst


I neglected to point out the ADP Forms and Reports can be bound to Stored
Procedures and Views.


I see, so I guess if I used the "major" database for tables and then used
SPs and Views for those in the other databases I would be in good shape.
--
I don't check the Email account attached
to this message. Send instead to...
RBrandt at Hunter dot com
Nov 12 '05 #23
ri*********@hot mail.com (Rick Brandt) wrote in
<bo************ *@ID-98015.news.uni-berlin.de>:
"David W. Fenton" <dX********@bwa y.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:94******* *************** *****@24.168.12 8.86...
ri*********@hot mail.com (Rick Brandt) wrote in
<bo************ *@ID-98015.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>"David W. Fenton" <dX********@bwa y.net.invalid> wrote in
>message news:94******** *************** ****@24.168.128 .86...
>> ri*********@hot mail.com (Rick Brandt) wrote in
>> <bn************ *@ID-98015.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>>
>> But can't ADO do quite a few things server-side that Jet/ODBC
>> won't do server-side?
>
>I've heard that it can do some things "closer to the bolts",
>but whether there are things that it can do that ODBC/DAO
>cannot do at all, I don't know. If so, then they're processes
>which I have yet to have a need for.


What I meant was that you could write client-side SQL that would
get processed server-side in cases where the same SQL with
DAO/ODBC would get processed by Jet. ADO was, I thought, built
with the idea that it would be intelligent enough to do this
kind of thing.


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that
there is SQL that cannot be run on the server regardless of
whether one uses DAO or ADO and there is SQL that will "usually*
be passed to the server for processing regardless of whether one
uses DAO or ADO. Examples of the former being a query joining to
a local table or which uses Functions or syntax that is
incompatible with the server's flavor of SQL and the latter being
just about everything else. With either library you should be able
to force server-side processing by using a pass-through.


Well, my understanding is that ADO is very smart and in certain
kinds of nonupdatable statements, it will write individual new SQL
statements to update the rows that cannot be updated in the actual
SQL that you've given it. That's way beyond anything DAO can do.

On the other hand, it is also something that kind of scares me, as
you have little control over how it decides to do things behind the
scenes. If it guesses wrong, you've got a problem.

But if it makes the process transparent, it can be a useful tool.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Nov 12 '05 #24
bo*********@hot mail.com (James Neumann) wrote in
<77************ *************@p osting.google.c om>:
Is there any scope for presenting your client with a cost-benefit
analysis to the various scenarios you and others here have
mentioned?
Well, in the long run, I do think that it would be better for the
data to be in SQL Server, given the quantity of it and the kind of
use it gets. What happens is that it comes under very heavy use
during short periods of time. They have had a few corruptions of
the data file with A2K, but none since I got all workstations on
SR1a and Jet SP6 (that's well over a year now), and they never lost
even one byte of data even then -- it was just inconvenient.
IMHO, based on what you have described, I really cannot see the
justificatio n to convert. Why? Regardless of the choice of
conversion method, there would be a material expenditure of time
to do the conversion, and test it. . . .
Yes, but as a long-run investment, it may be worth something to
them.
. . . Also worth considering is the
cost associated with setting up a dedicated SQL Server box, if the
client is a small shop. . . .
They have the equipment available. And SQL Server (and maybe even
new equipment) is likely to be donated by, well, let's just say by
one of the largest software companies in the world. Ahem.
. . . If they are a department within a large
company, they may incur a significant overhead charge to have a
SQL Server database online. (In several cases, I've done projects
in Access as opposed to VB/SQL Server for this very reason.)
Online? Who said anything about online?

And no, it's not a large company. It's a small consulting
organization.
I haven't spoken to the technical aspects of this, for which I
apologize - others have covered this better than I could.


I've got all these aspects in hand already. They wouldn't be
considering the SQL Server conversion at this point if a certain
large company had not made overtures about donating software (and
maybe equipment) for a certain large project taking place in New
York City in early September 2004. Ahem.

They have had Small Business Server as long as I've worked with
them (since May 2000), and I've spoken to them about spending time
($$$) evaluating the cost/benefit ratio of converting the back end
to SQL Server (by testing a raw upsizing and seeing what caused
problems and what gave benefits). They've recently abandoned the
Small Business Server package (they weren't using anything but
Exchange) for a new Win2K Server without SBS (just Exchange).

The offer of the software donation has raised the issue again.

I have told them that it would be a major cost and a large project
to convert. But I didn't tell them it would be without any benefits
at all, which I do not believe.

In a certain sense, it's one of those CYA situations. I can imagine
that if they brought in an outside database "expert" they'd be told
that they were in horrid danger of losing all their data because
they are depending on a toy database, etc., etc. They really are on
the threshold of the point at which it really becomes cost- and
performance-effective to switch over to a SQL Server back end.

But I wouldn't have any problems myself if they stay with the Jet
back end for a while. I see no reason why things should suddenly
become unreliable. The time when they switched servers (last June)
would have been the the likely point for things to go haywire and
nothing happened at all. Indeed, the migration of the database
application to the new server was the one thing that went off
without a hitch (I just told the sysadmins to put the database in a
top-level share named the same as on the old server and give the
new server the same name as the old one).

I'd be happy either way. Indeed, I'd love to see this project
converted to SQL Server as it would finance my training in using
SQL Server beyond my current at-home dabbling in it. But I'm
certainly not going to push it just because of that.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
Nov 12 '05 #25
"Rick Brandt" <ri*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in
news:bo******** *****@ID-98015.news.uni-berlin.de:
"Lyle Fairfield" <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4...
Lyle Fairfield <Mi************ @Invalid.Com> wrote in
news:Xn******** ***********@130 .133.1.4:
> Well Designed ADP-SQL Server Apps will edit, add and delete data via
> Stored Procedures and/or Views. Stored Procedures and Views can
> access tables from any database on the server (or linked server for
> that matter) given adequate permissions.
>
> Example from Books On Line:
> SELECT Cst.FirstName, Cst.LastName
> FROM Northwind.dbo.C ustomers AS Cst


I neglected to point out the ADP Forms and Reports can be bound to
Stored Procedures and Views.


I see, so I guess if I used the "major" database for tables and then
used SPs and Views for those in the other databases I would be in good
shape.


IMO it's a good idea to use SPs and Views for everything.
--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/contacts.htm)
Nov 12 '05 #26
From my understanding each user must have an Access licence to use an ADP on
an Intranet?!? I've avoided ADPs. I've been using DAO for over 8 years and
see no compelling reason to change just yet (except ADO when I'm doing
ASP... got to love accronyms:)

--
Bradley
Software Developer www.hrsystems.com.au
A Christian Response www.pastornet.net.au/response
"Rick Brandt" <ri*********@ho tmail.com> wrote in message
news:bo******** *****@ID-98015.news.uni-berlin.de...
"David W. Fenton" <dX********@bwa y.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:94******** *************** ****@24.168.128 .86...
mi************* *****@btinterne t.com (Mike MacSween) wrote in
<3f************ ***********@new s.aaisp.net.uk> :
"David W. Fenton" <dX********@bwa y.net.invalid> wrote in message

> Rewriting as an ADP means starting from scratch in an
> environment I know zilch about, and one that is buggy and
> inconsistent.

I'm interested you say that David. Somewhere fairly high on my
'next thing to learn more about' is ADPs. It _appears_ to be a
logical move, for an Access developer, towards client/server. What
problems have you found/heard about, with ADPs.


Were it a brand-new application with a high seat count (50+) and
SQL Server guaranteed as the back end and heavy editing, then I'd
consider learning how to use an ADP.

So far as I can see, all an ADP gets you is a "Jetless"
environment, which is not worth too much, so far as I can see.


I've only dabbled with ADPs, but one thing I saw which was another "con"
was that apparently the rule is "one ADP = one Database". Can someone
correct me if I'm wrong here? The first thing you are as asked to do is
indicate "the" database to use. Well our SQL Server has about a dozen
databases on it and many apps require connecting to more than one of them.
Is this not possible with an ADP?

I mean I'm sure I can connect to other dbs in code and such, but as far as
the SQL Server objects being visible within the ADP project itself can
there be only one? This seems like a pretty big restriction if so.
--
I don't check the Email account attached
to this message. Send instead to...
RBrandt at Hunter dot com

Nov 12 '05 #27

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