Which do you prefer?
Classic VB example:
*************************
Private Sub Command1_Click()
MsgBox "Hello, World"
End Sub
A VB.NET example:
**************************
Private Sub Button1_Click(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs) Handles Button1.Click
MessageBox.Show("Hello, World")
End Sub
Dec 4 '06
114  3306 
While I always recommend adding comments, it might be true that in business
programming many comments are only there for "backup purposes." But not all
programming is of a business nature. I once worked at a company that was
developing a PowerPoint-type program for a non-Windows platform. The main
programmer was in his 50s and had something like two PhD's in advanced physics,
etc. He was coding algorithms for 3D slide-transition animations in his head.
Wow!
In one of the transitions, the user could enable a colored border around
the slide that was entering or leaving, a slide that was flipping this way
and that way. There was a bug in the transition that caused the border to
draw incorrectly at certain angles. Guess who's job it became to fix the
bug. (Me.) Guess who didn't add any comments to his source code. (Mr. Genius
PhD.) Guess who had a really hard time fixing the bug. (That would be me,
again.) I decided that day to never write a program devoid of comments.
-----
Tim Patrick - www.timaki.com
Start-to-Finish Visual Basic 2005
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.googleg roups.com...
>>Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
Not trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly
obvious. If it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a
useless programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
comments are missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.googleg roups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person. Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious. If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those comments
are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree with
me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice comments often
make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.com. ..
>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
>No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
>>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.google groups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person. Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious. If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those comments
are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
Sir,
While I apprciate your forthright comment that you write code that ANYONE
can follow without any trouble at all, experience has taught me that the
only one that could possibly understand uncommented code is the person that
wrote that code. And if the person that wrote that code doesn't have a
photographic memory, it is very clear that they will not remember the
millions of lines of code that they wrote during their career.
I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
for several years. I actually got to work on some uncommented code that had
been written in a language that had been 'extrapolated' from the C
programming language. Took me almost three weeks to fix the issue because I
had to 'learn' the language and then try to figure out what had been
written. If the code had been commented, the job may have taken me a lot
less time than it did.
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.googleg roups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person. Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious. If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those comments
are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree
with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice comments
often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.com. ..
>>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googleg roups.com...
>>No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.googl egroups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious.
If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those comments
are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
Why name it X or Y. Surely a variable named "loop_Counter" or
"array_Count" or "employee_Split" would be more intuative.
The Grand Master
RobinS wrote:
I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree
with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice comments
often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.com. ..
>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.google groups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious.
If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those comments
are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
And rightly so, they must permission first
The Grand Master
guy wrote:
people never look up to people who look down on them
On 2006-12-06, Cor Ligthert [MVP] <no************@planet.nlwrote:
Tom,
Today I selected in a C# project 30 controls, I mistyped an 30 events where
created.
I'm not sure what you mean here?
In VB.Net it is just selecting and deleting.
Try it in your most important C# project.
Yes, if you manually delete the methods, it can be fun manually deleting the
event handlers from initialize component. and your right, that doesn't happen
in VB.NET - but it happens so in frequently to me that I still see the C# way
of doing thing as a net advantage.
Don't get me wrong - I have no ill feelings against VB.NET. I just happen to
like C-style languages is all. It is what I have done most.
--
Tom Shelton
Robin,
Your particular comment suggest that the one who read it is able to
understand what you are saying.
In this case he needs some more than average knowledge of code to understand
why something is done. That one does not need your comment, he/she sees it
and thinks, whow I would not have done it that way, however according the
quality of the rest of the program the developer should have had a special
reason for that. Let me think twice and than probably sees the why.
For a beginner this kind of comments has no sense even with the comment they
don't understand it.
However again just my personal opinion.
In my opinion a good comment can be:
'See document xyz for an explanation of mathematics in the used code
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:tM******************************@comcast.com. ..
>I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree
with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice comments
often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.com ...
>>>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.google groups.com...
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.goog legroups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious.
If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
>
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those comments
are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
>
Michael
I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
Um, I don't name it X or Y, it's just an example. Please don't make
me look through the 50,000 lines of code in the last project I wrote
to find the perfect example.
Robin S.
--------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@73g2000cwn.googlegro ups.com...
Why name it X or Y. Surely a variable named "loop_Counter" or
"array_Count" or "employee_Split" would be more intuative.
The Grand Master
RobinS wrote:
>I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree
with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice
comments
often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.com. ..
I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googleg roups.com...
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written
properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
Michael C wrote:
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.googl egroups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly
obvious.
If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
comments
are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
It *does* help if he has more than average knowledge, but I
don't like to assume that whoever comes along behind me *does*.
Plus, why should the poor guy have to spend extra time figuring
it out, when I can just put in a comment for him?
Also, frequently it's a business-rule kind of thing, that's
not documented anywhere for the programmer. While I *love*
to get written business requirements from my clients, I rarely do.
The specs for the last application I wrote were in the form
of a bunch of fields written on a piece of paper torn out of
a spiral notebook with the instructions "These are in three
different applications that we use, can you please figure out
how to get only *our* data out of those applications, for
only these fields, and put them in a central repository for us?"
I like to leave external documentation behind with my finished
applications (in this case, I documented the database/table/fieldname,
and in most cases, the query used), but that's not always possible.
To each their own, I just like to leave a helping hand to
whoever comes along behind me. It only takes me a few seconds.
(I type 100+ wpm).
Robin S.
---------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:uG**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Robin,
Your particular comment suggest that the one who read it is able to
understand what you are saying.
In this case he needs some more than average knowledge of code to
understand why something is done. That one does not need your comment,
he/she sees it and thinks, whow I would not have done it that way, however
according the quality of the rest of the program the developer should have
had a special reason for that. Let me think twice and than probably sees
the why.
For a beginner this kind of comments has no sense even with the comment
they don't understand it.
However again just my personal opinion.
In my opinion a good comment can be:
'See document xyz for an explanation of mathematics in the used code
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:tM******************************@comcast.com. ..
>>I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree
with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice comments
often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.co m...
I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googl egroups.com...
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
>
The Grand Master
>
>
Michael C wrote:
>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious.
If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
>>
>Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
>comments are
>missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
>>
>Michael
>
All I have to say is this: you must not write anything
very complicated.
Robin S.
--------------------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@73g2000cwn.googlegro ups.com...
>I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
Master Programmer wrote:
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
I disagree. Complex patterns need comments. In that explain what the
code does and why a certain method is chosen. A comment of 2 or 3 lines
can perfectly explain what code of multiple pages does. It certainly
helps maintaining the app especially if another person needs to go in
and add/change stuff in there. For instance I've used comments to
indicate why I chose a particular way of doing stuff because some quirk
in a programming language made it impossible to do it the obvious way.
That prevents someone going in in the future and changing it only to
find out the obvious way doesn't work.
For small routines consisting of just a few lines I agree it's not
always really nescesarry, but for big complex things not using comments
is just bad for future maintainence
--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v
I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
>
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
Welcome to the newsgroup Bruce! I'm sure this goes without saying, but
this guy is nothing more than a wannabe programmer who gets a rush out
of flaming others. So believe it or not your opinions are welcome here,
dispite what this "Master Programmer" says. I promise - most of us here
are nice :-)
Oh and Master Programming, if you want to prove you're not a wannabe
please provide us with some proof - perhaps posting your real name, and
some projects and companies you've worked on/for would help. As for
right now all you are is talk, and nothing else.
Good code is easy to read - bad code needs comments - end of story
You know, I would love to see how you pull this off when dealing with
complex problems. Again, do you even have any of your source code
published anywhere that we could take a look at? And I don't mean small
"Hello World" programs or database frontends, I want to see something
complex - something that we meager programmers would "need" to use
comments for.
As far as my opinion on the issue, I dislike using comments inside my
routines, and use them only sparingly (like complicated loops or some
API calls). Placing comments inside the procedure itself (imo) makes it
hard to follow whats going on in the code (mainly from switching from
the code reading mindset to the english reading mindset) To me, using
the '''<Summary>...></Summarytags on any routine that does something
out of the ordinary is a great way to let others (or yourself 6 months
later) know immediately what the purpose is.
Any programmer can figure out any code if he/she is given enough time.
If that same programming is given good comments they will be able to
figure that same code in much less time. This is what comments are for
- they are not excuses for bad code, they are for getting others up to
speed on the code faster. Why would you force someone to read through a
page of code to figure out what is going on when one or two lines of
comments code explain it? The time saved in not reading through the
page of code is more enough reason to include well structured comments.
Thanks,
Seth Rowe
Master Programmer wrote:
I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
Michael;
I disagree
Master Programmer is always right.. haven't you guys seen the pattern
so far?
We forecasted just a week ago-- this new press release about how VB.net
usage is down 30%
they're going to kill it off soon; C# won the war.. MS officially
killed the worlds most popular language.
I heard it from a friend that works at MSFT
-Aaron
Michael C wrote:
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person. Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly obvious. If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those comments are
missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
Michael
The Top 10 Misconceptions about Commenting and Style (from The Visual Basic
..NET Style Guide)
1. Comments are extraneous since you can always understand the logic by looking
at the code.
2. Indenting just wastes disk space.
3. I don't have time to add comments.
4. What does it matter how sloppy the code is? I'm not selling the source
code.
5. Adding comments doesn't make the code run any better.
6. Hey man, don't bother me. This is my trademark coding style.
7. I comment every line of code. It makes the program so readable.
8. If there's a bug, I'll be able to fix it. It's not like I'm going to forget
what this function does.
9. I'll go back later and add in the comments.
10. It's job security. If others can understand my code, they don't need me.
-----
Tim Patrick - www.timaki.com
Start-to-Finish Visual Basic 2005
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
comments are unnecessary
speak english or die
-Aaron
C-Services Holland b.v. wrote:
Master Programmer wrote:
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
I disagree. Complex patterns need comments. In that explain what the
code does and why a certain method is chosen. A comment of 2 or 3 lines
can perfectly explain what code of multiple pages does. It certainly
helps maintaining the app especially if another person needs to go in
and add/change stuff in there. For instance I've used comments to
indicate why I chose a particular way of doing stuff because some quirk
in a programming language made it impossible to do it the obvious way.
That prevents someone going in in the future and changing it only to
find out the obvious way doesn't work.
For small routines consisting of just a few lines I agree it's not
always really nescesarry, but for big complex things not using comments
is just bad for future maintainence
--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v
Tom
if you're a commie fucking bastard and you like C# then get the fuck
out of our newsgroup
-Aaron
Tom Shelton wrote:
On 2006-12-06, Cor Ligthert [MVP] <no************@planet.nlwrote:
Tom,
Today I selected in a C# project 30 controls, I mistyped an 30 events where
created.
I'm not sure what you mean here?
In VB.Net it is just selecting and deleting.
Try it in your most important C# project.
Yes, if you manually delete the methods, it can be fun manually deleting the
event handlers from initialize component. and your right, that doesn't happen
in VB.NET - but it happens so in frequently to me that I still see the C# way
of doing thing as a net advantage.
Don't get me wrong - I have no ill feelings against VB.NET. I just happen to
like C-style languages is all. It is what I have done most.
--
Tom Shelton
It's not your newsgroup. You said you're doing PHP, not VB.Net.
So by your own definition, *you* should leave.
Robin S.
-----------------------------------
<aa*********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@j44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Tom
if you're a commie fucking bastard and you like C# then get the fuck
out of our newsgroup
-Aaron
Tom Shelton wrote:
>On 2006-12-06, Cor Ligthert [MVP] <no************@planet.nlwrote:
Tom,
Today I selected in a C# project 30 controls, I mistyped an 30 events
where
created.
I'm not sure what you mean here?
In VB.Net it is just selecting and deleting.
Try it in your most important C# project.
Yes, if you manually delete the methods, it can be fun manually deleting
the
event handlers from initialize component. and your right, that doesn't
happen
in VB.NET - but it happens so in frequently to me that I still see the C#
way
of doing thing as a net advantage.
Don't get me wrong - I have no ill feelings against VB.NET. I just
happen to
like C-style languages is all. It is what I have done most.
--
Tom Shelton
Complicated?!?!
I'd go so far as to say he can't even type and everything you've been
reading here was dictated to his mum.
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.nonewrote in message
news:Oq******************************@comcast.com. ..
All I have to say is this: you must not write anything
very complicated.
Robin S.
--------------------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@73g2000cwn.googlegro ups.com...
>>I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer
industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
you can't discredit people-- just because they disagree with you.
VB.net has officially been retired.
why are we still in a newsgroup called VB.net?
VB 2005 is a complete failure in the open market.
THE LANGUAGE IS _STILL_ TOO VERBOSE.
MS needs to go back to the drawing board; VB is neither Visual or
Basic.
They need to either rename the language 'B#' or 'VB#' in order to show
that they still love VB half as much as we do.
-Aaron
rowe_newsgroups wrote:
I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
Welcome to the newsgroup Bruce! I'm sure this goes without saying, but
this guy is nothing more than a wannabe programmer who gets a rush out
of flaming others. So believe it or not your opinions are welcome here,
dispite what this "Master Programmer" says. I promise - most of us here
are nice :-)
Oh and Master Programming, if you want to prove you're not a wannabe
please provide us with some proof - perhaps posting your real name, and
some projects and companies you've worked on/for would help. As for
right now all you are is talk, and nothing else.
Good code is easy to read - bad code needs comments - end of story
You know, I would love to see how you pull this off when dealing with
complex problems. Again, do you even have any of your source code
published anywhere that we could take a look at? And I don't mean small
"Hello World" programs or database frontends, I want to see something
complex - something that we meager programmers would "need" to use
comments for.
As far as my opinion on the issue, I dislike using comments inside my
routines, and use them only sparingly (like complicated loops or some
API calls). Placing comments inside the procedure itself (imo) makes it
hard to follow whats going on in the code (mainly from switching from
the code reading mindset to the english reading mindset) To me, using
the '''<Summary>...></Summarytags on any routine that does something
out of the ordinary is a great way to let others (or yourself 6 months
later) know immediately what the purpose is.
Any programmer can figure out any code if he/she is given enough time.
If that same programming is given good comments they will be able to
figure that same code in much less time. This is what comments are for
- they are not excuses for bad code, they are for getting others up to
speed on the code faster. Why would you force someone to read through a
page of code to figure out what is going on when one or two lines of
comments code explain it? The time saved in not reading through the
page of code is more enough reason to include well structured comments.
Thanks,
Seth Rowe
Master Programmer wrote:
I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comschrieb:
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
Basically I tend to agree. Code should IMO be readable (which means that
the reader can reconstruct its meaning) without any comments, but comments
should support the reader by making understanding the meaning of the source
code easier.
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
fully agree.
Long Live Master Programmer!
-Aaron
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP] wrote:
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comschrieb:
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
Basically I tend to agree. Code should IMO be readable (which means that
the reader can reconstruct its meaning) without any comments, but comments
should support the reader by making understanding the meaning of the source
code easier.
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
<aa*********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@j44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
you can't discredit people-- just because they disagree with you.
And yet, that's what you do every single time you post one of
your caustic messages in this newsgroup.
VB.net has officially been retired.
Only in your tiny little mind.
Robin S.
LOL. Loved #2.
And if you delete some of those files on your computer,
it won't weigh as much. (attribution: Scott Adams)
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.comcas t.net...
The Top 10 Misconceptions about Commenting and Style (from The Visual
Basic .NET Style Guide)
1. Comments are extraneous since you can always understand the logic by
looking at the code.
2. Indenting just wastes disk space.
3. I don't have time to add comments.
4. What does it matter how sloppy the code is? I'm not selling the source
code.
5. Adding comments doesn't make the code run any better.
6. Hey man, don't bother me. This is my trademark coding style.
7. I comment every line of code. It makes the program so readable.
8. If there's a bug, I'll be able to fix it. It's not like I'm going to
forget what this function does.
9. I'll go back later and add in the comments.
10. It's job security. If others can understand my code, they don't need
me.
-----
Tim Patrick - www.timaki.com
Start-to-Finish Visual Basic 2005
>I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
Well, yeah, that's a good point. Silly me. Now I'm acting
like Robinson and arguing with a grapefruit.
Robin S.
(*not* to be confused with Robinson or Tim Patrick
or Francesca Balena or Brian Noyes or Bill Gates or
Larry Ellison)
-------------------------
"The Grim Reaper" <do********@Idontwanttoknow.comwrote in message
news:KY********************@bt.com...
Complicated?!?!
I'd go so far as to say he can't even type and everything you've been
reading here was dictated to his mum.
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.nonewrote in message
news:Oq******************************@comcast.com. ..
>All I have to say is this: you must not write anything
very complicated.
Robin S.
--------------------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@73g2000cwn.googlegr oups.com...
>>>I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer
industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
Hmmm. He seemed to be speaking pretty good English.
Are your glasses up-to-date?
Robin S.
--------------------------
<aa*********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@16g2000cwy.googlegro ups.com...
comments are unnecessary
speak english or die
-Aaron
C-Services Holland b.v. wrote:
>Master Programmer wrote:
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
The Grand Master
I disagree. Complex patterns need comments. In that explain what the
code does and why a certain method is chosen. A comment of 2 or 3 lines
can perfectly explain what code of multiple pages does. It certainly
helps maintaining the app especially if another person needs to go in
and add/change stuff in there. For instance I've used comments to
indicate why I chose a particular way of doing stuff because some quirk
in a programming language made it impossible to do it the obvious way.
That prevents someone going in in the future and changing it only to
find out the obvious way doesn't work.
For small routines consisting of just a few lines I agree it's not
always really nescesarry, but for big complex things not using comments
is just bad for future maintainence
--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v
I worked with a lady who wrote to Scott Adams the idea about "smaller font
sizes taking up less disk space." She got a "thanks for the idea" letter
back from Adams and a preview copy of the panels for that particular Dilbert
strip, which she prized.
-----
Tim Patrick - www.timaki.com
Start-to-Finish Visual Basic 2005
LOL. Loved #2.
And if you delete some of those files on your computer, it won't weigh
as much. (attribution: Scott Adams)
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.comcas t.net...
>The Top 10 Misconceptions about Commenting and Style (from The Visual
Basic .NET Style Guide)
1. Comments are extraneous since you can always understand the logic
by
looking at the code.
2. Indenting just wastes disk space.
3. I don't have time to add comments.
4. What does it matter how sloppy the code is? I'm not selling the
source
code.
5. Adding comments doesn't make the code run any better.
6. Hey man, don't bother me. This is my trademark coding style.
7. I comment every line of code. It makes the program so readable.
8. If there's a bug, I'll be able to fix it. It's not like I'm going
to
forget what this function does.
9. I'll go back later and add in the comments.
10. It's job security. If others can understand my code, they don't
need
me.
Wow, that's so cool.
My only Scott-Adams-claim-to-fame is I worked across the street
from where he worked (Pacific Bell), and in the middle of layoffs
(at our company), we e-mailed him and asked if we could take him
to lunch (it was before he was *quite* as popular), and he consented.
It was cool. He was really nice; signed all our books. :-)
Robin S.
------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.comcas t.net...
>I worked with a lady who wrote to Scott Adams the idea about "smaller font
sizes taking up less disk space." She got a "thanks for the idea" letter
back from Adams and a preview copy of the panels for that particular
Dilbert strip, which she prized.
-----
Tim Patrick - www.timaki.com
Start-to-Finish Visual Basic 2005
>LOL. Loved #2.
And if you delete some of those files on your computer, it won't weigh
as much. (attribution: Scott Adams)
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.comca st.net...
>>The Top 10 Misconceptions about Commenting and Style (from The Visual
Basic .NET Style Guide)
1. Comments are extraneous since you can always understand the logic
by
looking at the code.
2. Indenting just wastes disk space.
3. I don't have time to add comments.
4. What does it matter how sloppy the code is? I'm not selling the
source
code.
5. Adding comments doesn't make the code run any better.
6. Hey man, don't bother me. This is my trademark coding style.
7. I comment every line of code. It makes the program so readable.
8. If there's a bug, I'll be able to fix it. It's not like I'm going
to
forget what this function does.
9. I'll go back later and add in the comments.
10. It's job security. If others can understand my code, they don't
need
me.
I don't discredit people that are speaking the truth.
you see.. i have this magical power called 'TRUTH' on my side.
the TRUTH is that MS made this newsgroup name RIDICULOUSLY LONG and I
won't put up with it.
the TRUTH is that microsoft.com/vb USED TO WORK
you guys sit there and say 'oh its not a big deal' but it's OBVIOUS
THAT MICROSOFTS VB.NET STRATEGY IS STILL FAILING
-Aaron
RobinS wrote:
<aa*********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@j44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
you can't discredit people-- just because they disagree with you.
And yet, that's what you do every single time you post one of
your caustic messages in this newsgroup.
VB.net has officially been retired.
Only in your tiny little mind.
Robin S.
the TRUTH is that MS made this newsgroup name RIDICULOUSLY LONG and I
won't put up with it.
You said in another post you use Goggle Groups to post, so why not
click "Add to favorites" in your browser? Or is this approach too
"verbose" and two much work for you?
Or even better, you could go to the comp.lang.php newsgroup and leave
us to our "dead" (your opinion not mine) language.
Thanks,
Seth Rowe aa*********@gmail.com wrote:
I don't discredit people that are speaking the truth.
you see.. i have this magical power called 'TRUTH' on my side.
the TRUTH is that MS made this newsgroup name RIDICULOUSLY LONG and I
won't put up with it.
the TRUTH is that microsoft.com/vb USED TO WORK
you guys sit there and say 'oh its not a big deal' but it's OBVIOUS
THAT MICROSOFTS VB.NET STRATEGY IS STILL FAILING
-Aaron
RobinS wrote:
<aa*********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@j44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
you can't discredit people-- just because they disagree with you.
And yet, that's what you do every single time you post one of
your caustic messages in this newsgroup.
VB.net has officially been retired.
Only in your tiny little mind.
Robin S.
Robin:
How can we hope to have reasonable conversations when people are arguing
against comments. I don't know where they work but I've seen millions of
lines of code and I'm sure each programmer thought the code was completely
clear when in fact it was plainly not. What seems obvious as it is being
written won't be so obvious 3 years later when 8 of the original programmers
have quit. But let's say I include a SSort() routine, would developers
recognize it as a "stable sort" just by reading the code? I'll guess that
90% of the VB programmers haven't heard of a stable sort so how can they
recognize one? I'll also guess "what a dork doesn't he know there is a sort
method" is what some of the folks here would say.
But that is only one use of comments. They have been elevated in status
through the use of things like JavaDoc (in Java). In large apps I've seen
3, 4 and 5 versions of "identical functionality" simply because none of the
programmers knew the other functions existed when they wrote their own local
version. An automated system for producing printed documentation would go a
long way to reducing this stuff.
We also use them to track changes. With business critical apps (and I mean
daily or weekly turnaround schedules) it is important to know what changed,
who changed it, when it was changed and why it was changed. There is no
more sensible place to put this information than next to the code that
actually changed. And if you made a undocumented modification and the $14
million a year client dropped the company because your change ruined their
system you can bet there would be repercussions.
They aren't fun, and the system isn't perfect but how on Earth can anybody
be arguing against commenting? I suspect it's a game... the "your code is
inferior because you have to comment it" gambit. But my code isn't inferior
it is as good or better and it has reasonable and useful comments as well.
These types of threads come about continually, it's part of the coming of
age of software developers. I've had programmers (who "knew" they were the
greatest) tell me that programmers don't read documentation. When I
challenged that statement he asked if I thought the majority of programmers
read the docs and I answered, "no not the majority, just the good ones."
Well that's my 2 cents... everybody carry on :-)
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.nonewrote in message
news:Bo******************************@comcast.com. ..
It *does* help if he has more than average knowledge, but I
don't like to assume that whoever comes along behind me *does*.
Plus, why should the poor guy have to spend extra time figuring
it out, when I can just put in a comment for him?
Also, frequently it's a business-rule kind of thing, that's
not documented anywhere for the programmer. While I *love*
to get written business requirements from my clients, I rarely do.
The specs for the last application I wrote were in the form
of a bunch of fields written on a piece of paper torn out of
a spiral notebook with the instructions "These are in three
different applications that we use, can you please figure out
how to get only *our* data out of those applications, for
only these fields, and put them in a central repository for us?"
I like to leave external documentation behind with my finished
applications (in this case, I documented the database/table/fieldname,
and in most cases, the query used), but that's not always possible.
To each their own, I just like to leave a helping hand to
whoever comes along behind me. It only takes me a few seconds.
(I type 100+ wpm).
Robin S.
---------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:uG**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>Robin,
Your particular comment suggest that the one who read it is able to
understand what you are saying.
In this case he needs some more than average knowledge of code to
understand why something is done. That one does not need your comment,
he/she sees it and thinks, whow I would not have done it that way,
however according the quality of the rest of the program the developer
should have had a special reason for that. Let me think twice and than
probably sees the why.
For a beginner this kind of comments has no sense even with the comment
they don't understand it.
However again just my personal opinion.
In my opinion a good comment can be:
'See document xyz for an explanation of mathematics in the used code
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:tM******************************@comcast.com ...
>>>I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree
with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice
comments often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.c om...
>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
>
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.goog legroups.com...
>No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written
>properly.
>It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
>code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
>school.
>>
>The Grand Master
>>
>>
>Michael C wrote:
>>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>>news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.go oglegroups.com...
>Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
>Not
>trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly
>obvious. If
>it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
>programmer.
>>>
>>Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
>>comments are
>>missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
>>>
>>Michael
>>
>
>
ROFL
good stuff.
it doesn't mean that other people don't have a problem finding it.
how much more popular is the C# newsgroup?
do you think that VB.net is just magically dying?
it's a few simple image things like this.. and microsoft.com/vb not
working-- that make it appear as if MS doesn't sell VB anymore
yes; it is a fucking pain in the ass.
yes; it is important that ms gets this correctly.
it just flat out pisses me off; I hate the 'DOTNET' moniker.. and VB
2005 is not VB.net in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. IT IS CALLED VB 2005 NOT
VB.NET 2005
This would be like MS calling the next version of Windows 'Windows 95
Vista'
ROFL
I made a funny :)
-Aaron
rowe_newsgroups wrote:
the TRUTH is that MS made this newsgroup name RIDICULOUSLY LONG and I
won't put up with it.
You said in another post you use Goggle Groups to post, so why not
click "Add to favorites" in your browser? Or is this approach too
"verbose" and two much work for you?
Or even better, you could go to the comp.lang.php newsgroup and leave
us to our "dead" (your opinion not mine) language.
Thanks,
Seth Rowe
aa*********@gmail.com wrote:
I don't discredit people that are speaking the truth.
you see.. i have this magical power called 'TRUTH' on my side.
the TRUTH is that MS made this newsgroup name RIDICULOUSLY LONG and I
won't put up with it.
the TRUTH is that microsoft.com/vb USED TO WORK
you guys sit there and say 'oh its not a big deal' but it's OBVIOUS
THAT MICROSOFTS VB.NET STRATEGY IS STILL FAILING
-Aaron
RobinS wrote:
<aa*********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@j44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
you can't discredit people-- just because they disagree with you.
>
>
And yet, that's what you do every single time you post one of
your caustic messages in this newsgroup.
>
VB.net has officially been retired.
>
Only in your tiny little mind.
>
Robin S.
Tom,
How can we hope to have a reasonable conversation when people are arguing
before comments.
Comments should not be needed (with the exception as Robin told and I in
fact before him, that is to find where the underlying documentation for a
piece of code is or arguments why it is not done in another way when that is
more obvious).
You probably have never worked with well documentative program languages. I
did and I have seen people ruing those language making it a kind of
assembler and than fulfilling it with comments.
Robin has stated it in my idea very well although not in one thread.
I have seen a bunch of rotten code, very well commented because the
developer could not make a well written program.
I have seen often very well programs, unreadable because the programmer most
probably was driven by his manager to write comments. After deleting the
comments I could very well understand the program.
Therefore a well written program don't need comments which tell as Robin
already said.
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
That is 90% (not even 80 as I normal write) the comments I have seen in my
live.
(spare me messages about my writting style I wrote it quick and very much
from my hart).
Cor
"Tom Leylan" <ge*@iamtiredofspam.comschreef in bericht
news:O9****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Robin:
How can we hope to have reasonable conversations when people are arguing
against comments. I don't know where they work but I've seen millions of
lines of code and I'm sure each programmer thought the code was completely
clear when in fact it was plainly not. What seems obvious as it is being
written won't be so obvious 3 years later when 8 of the original
programmers have quit. But let's say I include a SSort() routine, would
developers recognize it as a "stable sort" just by reading the code? I'll
guess that 90% of the VB programmers haven't heard of a stable sort so how
can they recognize one? I'll also guess "what a dork doesn't he know
there is a sort method" is what some of the folks here would say.
But that is only one use of comments. They have been elevated in status
through the use of things like JavaDoc (in Java). In large apps I've seen
3, 4 and 5 versions of "identical functionality" simply because none of
the programmers knew the other functions existed when they wrote their own
local version. An automated system for producing printed documentation
would go a long way to reducing this stuff.
We also use them to track changes. With business critical apps (and I
mean daily or weekly turnaround schedules) it is important to know what
changed, who changed it, when it was changed and why it was changed.
There is no more sensible place to put this information than next to the
code that actually changed. And if you made a undocumented modification
and the $14 million a year client dropped the company because your change
ruined their system you can bet there would be repercussions.
They aren't fun, and the system isn't perfect but how on Earth can anybody
be arguing against commenting? I suspect it's a game... the "your code is
inferior because you have to comment it" gambit. But my code isn't
inferior it is as good or better and it has reasonable and useful comments
as well.
These types of threads come about continually, it's part of the coming of
age of software developers. I've had programmers (who "knew" they were
the greatest) tell me that programmers don't read documentation. When I
challenged that statement he asked if I thought the majority of
programmers read the docs and I answered, "no not the majority, just the
good ones."
Well that's my 2 cents... everybody carry on :-)
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.nonewrote in message
news:Bo******************************@comcast.com. ..
>It *does* help if he has more than average knowledge, but I
don't like to assume that whoever comes along behind me *does*.
Plus, why should the poor guy have to spend extra time figuring
it out, when I can just put in a comment for him?
Also, frequently it's a business-rule kind of thing, that's
not documented anywhere for the programmer. While I *love*
to get written business requirements from my clients, I rarely do.
The specs for the last application I wrote were in the form
of a bunch of fields written on a piece of paper torn out of
a spiral notebook with the instructions "These are in three
different applications that we use, can you please figure out
how to get only *our* data out of those applications, for
only these fields, and put them in a central repository for us?"
I like to leave external documentation behind with my finished
applications (in this case, I documented the database/table/fieldname,
and in most cases, the query used), but that's not always possible.
To each their own, I just like to leave a helping hand to
whoever comes along behind me. It only takes me a few seconds.
(I type 100+ wpm).
Robin S.
---------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:uG**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>Robin,
Your particular comment suggest that the one who read it is able to
understand what you are saying.
In this case he needs some more than average knowledge of code to
understand why something is done. That one does not need your comment,
he/she sees it and thinks, whow I would not have done it that way,
however according the quality of the rest of the program the developer
should have had a special reason for that. Let me think twice and than
probably sees the why.
For a beginner this kind of comments has no sense even with the comment
they don't understand it.
However again just my personal opinion.
In my opinion a good comment can be:
'See document xyz for an explanation of mathematics in the used code
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:tM******************************@comcast.co m...
I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
>
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
>
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
>
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can
disagree with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very
nice comments often make very bad code).
>
Just my thought,
>
:-)
>
Cor
>
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast. com...
>>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
>with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
>in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
>for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
>have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
>that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
>documenting my code so well.
>>
>Robin S.
>----------------------------------
>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.goo glegroups.com...
>>No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written
>>properly.
>>It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
>>code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
>>school.
>>>
>>The Grand Master
>>>
>>>
>>Michael C wrote:
>>>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>>>news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.g ooglegroups.com...
>>Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next
>>person. Not
>>trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly
>>obvious. If
>>it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
>>programmer.
>>>>
>>>Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
>>>comments are
>>>missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
>>>>
>>>Michael
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Robin,
As you are longer active in these dotNet newsgroup you will (with messages)
meet more famous writers, I only know one who is not kind.
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:iu******************************@comcast.com. ..
Wow, that's so cool.
My only Scott-Adams-claim-to-fame is I worked across the street
from where he worked (Pacific Bell), and in the middle of layoffs
(at our company), we e-mailed him and asked if we could take him
to lunch (it was before he was *quite* as popular), and he consented.
It was cool. He was really nice; signed all our books. :-)
Robin S.
------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.comcas t.net...
>>I worked with a lady who wrote to Scott Adams the idea about "smaller font
sizes taking up less disk space." She got a "thanks for the idea" letter
back from Adams and a preview copy of the panels for that particular
Dilbert strip, which she prized.
-----
Tim Patrick - www.timaki.com
Start-to-Finish Visual Basic 2005
>>LOL. Loved #2.
And if you delete some of those files on your computer, it won't weigh
as much. (attribution: Scott Adams)
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.comc ast.net...
The Top 10 Misconceptions about Commenting and Style (from The Visual
Basic .NET Style Guide)
1. Comments are extraneous since you can always understand the logic
by
looking at the code.
2. Indenting just wastes disk space.
3. I don't have time to add comments.
4. What does it matter how sloppy the code is? I'm not selling the
source
code.
5. Adding comments doesn't make the code run any better.
6. Hey man, don't bother me. This is my trademark coding style.
7. I comment every line of code. It makes the program so readable.
8. If there's a bug, I'll be able to fix it. It's not like I'm going
to
forget what this function does.
9. I'll go back later and add in the comments.
10. It's job security. If others can understand my code, they don't
need
me.
using appropriate names and comments are 2 seperate issues
-Aaron
Tom Leylan wrote:
Robin:
How can we hope to have reasonable conversations when people are arguing
against comments. I don't know where they work but I've seen millions of
lines of code and I'm sure each programmer thought the code was completely
clear when in fact it was plainly not. What seems obvious as it is being
written won't be so obvious 3 years later when 8 of the original programmers
have quit. But let's say I include a SSort() routine, would developers
recognize it as a "stable sort" just by reading the code? I'll guess that
90% of the VB programmers haven't heard of a stable sort so how can they
recognize one? I'll also guess "what a dork doesn't he know there is a sort
method" is what some of the folks here would say.
But that is only one use of comments. They have been elevated in status
through the use of things like JavaDoc (in Java). In large apps I've seen
3, 4 and 5 versions of "identical functionality" simply because none of the
programmers knew the other functions existed when they wrote their own local
version. An automated system for producing printed documentation would go a
long way to reducing this stuff.
We also use them to track changes. With business critical apps (and I mean
daily or weekly turnaround schedules) it is important to know what changed,
who changed it, when it was changed and why it was changed. There is no
more sensible place to put this information than next to the code that
actually changed. And if you made a undocumented modification and the $14
million a year client dropped the company because your change ruined their
system you can bet there would be repercussions.
They aren't fun, and the system isn't perfect but how on Earth can anybody
be arguing against commenting? I suspect it's a game... the "your code is
inferior because you have to comment it" gambit. But my code isn't inferior
it is as good or better and it has reasonable and useful comments as well.
These types of threads come about continually, it's part of the coming of
age of software developers. I've had programmers (who "knew" they were the
greatest) tell me that programmers don't read documentation. When I
challenged that statement he asked if I thought the majority of programmers
read the docs and I answered, "no not the majority, just the good ones."
Well that's my 2 cents... everybody carry on :-)
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.nonewrote in message
news:Bo******************************@comcast.com. ..
It *does* help if he has more than average knowledge, but I
don't like to assume that whoever comes along behind me *does*.
Plus, why should the poor guy have to spend extra time figuring
it out, when I can just put in a comment for him?
Also, frequently it's a business-rule kind of thing, that's
not documented anywhere for the programmer. While I *love*
to get written business requirements from my clients, I rarely do.
The specs for the last application I wrote were in the form
of a bunch of fields written on a piece of paper torn out of
a spiral notebook with the instructions "These are in three
different applications that we use, can you please figure out
how to get only *our* data out of those applications, for
only these fields, and put them in a central repository for us?"
I like to leave external documentation behind with my finished
applications (in this case, I documented the database/table/fieldname,
and in most cases, the query used), but that's not always possible.
To each their own, I just like to leave a helping hand to
whoever comes along behind me. It only takes me a few seconds.
(I type 100+ wpm).
Robin S.
---------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:uG**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Robin,
Your particular comment suggest that the one who read it is able to
understand what you are saying.
In this case he needs some more than average knowledge of code to
understand why something is done. That one does not need your comment,
he/she sees it and thinks, whow I would not have done it that way,
however according the quality of the rest of the program the developer
should have had a special reason for that. Let me think twice and than
probably sees the why.
For a beginner this kind of comments has no sense even with the comment
they don't understand it.
However again just my personal opinion.
In my opinion a good comment can be:
'See document xyz for an explanation of mathematics in the used code
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:tM******************************@comcast.com. ..
I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can disagree
with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very nice
comments often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.co m...
I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.googl egroups.com...
No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written
properly.
It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
school.
>
The Grand Master
>
>
Michael C wrote:
>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.goo glegroups.com...
Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next person.
Not
trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly
obvious. If
it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
programmer.
>>
>Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
>comments are
>missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
>>
>Michael
>
Well, it does depend on the code. As I said, and Cor agreed
with, adding comments that repeat the code is redundant. I
just add them to explain why I chose a particular method --
maybe because of something else that's happening somewhere
in the (huge) application, or because of a business reason.
Or if the code is really complicated, I'll put something in
to give the general idea.
I have known a lot of programmers that don't believe in it, but
my guess is they've never written anything so complicated it
requires a 30-page document just to explain the calculations
(been there, wrote the document), or they *have*, but they've
never had to change it or maintain it. *Or* they don't mind
spending days going through every line of code trying to figure
out exactly what it does. Ugh.
I even worked for one person who went through and *removed* my
comments. They said it made it harder for them to read the code.
About a year later, they called up and asked if I had a copy of
the code w/the comments in it (I did), and could I help them
figure something out because they had to change something in the
business logic, and they didn't have enough time to figure it
out by going through the code.
I guess the bottom line is that I tend to be detail-oriented,
and think about the long-term, and a few comments in the code
seems to make sense to me. I also have an appalling habit of
writing documentation for the really complicated stuff (like
the aforementioned calculations) to leave behind me. That's
just me.
Other people can make their own choices.
And that's *my* two cents'.
Robin S.
---------------------------------------------
"Tom Leylan" <ge*@iamtiredofspam.comwrote in message
news:O9****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Robin:
How can we hope to have reasonable conversations when people are arguing
against comments. I don't know where they work but I've seen millions of
lines of code and I'm sure each programmer thought the code was completely
clear when in fact it was plainly not. What seems obvious as it is being
written won't be so obvious 3 years later when 8 of the original
programmers have quit. But let's say I include a SSort() routine, would
developers recognize it as a "stable sort" just by reading the code? I'll
guess that 90% of the VB programmers haven't heard of a stable sort so how
can they recognize one? I'll also guess "what a dork doesn't he know
there is a sort method" is what some of the folks here would say.
But that is only one use of comments. They have been elevated in status
through the use of things like JavaDoc (in Java). In large apps I've seen
3, 4 and 5 versions of "identical functionality" simply because none of
the programmers knew the other functions existed when they wrote their own
local version. An automated system for producing printed documentation
would go a long way to reducing this stuff.
We also use them to track changes. With business critical apps (and I
mean daily or weekly turnaround schedules) it is important to know what
changed, who changed it, when it was changed and why it was changed.
There is no more sensible place to put this information than next to the
code that actually changed. And if you made a undocumented modification
and the $14 million a year client dropped the company because your change
ruined their system you can bet there would be repercussions.
They aren't fun, and the system isn't perfect but how on Earth can anybody
be arguing against commenting? I suspect it's a game... the "your code is
inferior because you have to comment it" gambit. But my code isn't
inferior it is as good or better and it has reasonable and useful comments
as well.
These types of threads come about continually, it's part of the coming of
age of software developers. I've had programmers (who "knew" they were
the greatest) tell me that programmers don't read documentation. When I
challenged that statement he asked if I thought the majority of
programmers read the docs and I answered, "no not the majority, just the
good ones."
Well that's my 2 cents... everybody carry on :-)
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.nonewrote in message
news:Bo******************************@comcast.com. ..
>It *does* help if he has more than average knowledge, but I
don't like to assume that whoever comes along behind me *does*.
Plus, why should the poor guy have to spend extra time figuring
it out, when I can just put in a comment for him?
Also, frequently it's a business-rule kind of thing, that's
not documented anywhere for the programmer. While I *love*
to get written business requirements from my clients, I rarely do.
The specs for the last application I wrote were in the form
of a bunch of fields written on a piece of paper torn out of
a spiral notebook with the instructions "These are in three
different applications that we use, can you please figure out
how to get only *our* data out of those applications, for
only these fields, and put them in a central repository for us?"
I like to leave external documentation behind with my finished
applications (in this case, I documented the database/table/fieldname,
and in most cases, the query used), but that's not always possible.
To each their own, I just like to leave a helping hand to
whoever comes along behind me. It only takes me a few seconds.
(I type 100+ wpm).
Robin S.
---------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:uG**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>Robin,
Your particular comment suggest that the one who read it is able to
understand what you are saying.
In this case he needs some more than average knowledge of code to
understand why something is done. That one does not need your comment,
he/she sees it and thinks, whow I would not have done it that way,
however according the quality of the rest of the program the developer
should have had a special reason for that. Let me think twice and than
probably sees the why.
For a beginner this kind of comments has no sense even with the comment
they don't understand it.
However again just my personal opinion.
In my opinion a good comment can be:
'See document xyz for an explanation of mathematics in the used code
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:tM******************************@comcast.co m...
I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
>
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
>
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
>
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can
disagree with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very
nice comments often make very bad code).
>
Just my thought,
>
:-)
>
Cor
>
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast. com...
>>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
>with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
>in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
>for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
>have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
>that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
>documenting my code so well.
>>
>Robin S.
>----------------------------------
>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.goo glegroups.com...
>>No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written
>>properly.
>>It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
>>code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
>>school.
>>>
>>The Grand Master
>>>
>>>
>>Michael C wrote:
>>>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>>>news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.g ooglegroups.com...
>>Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next
>>person. Not
>>trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly
>>obvious. If
>>it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
>>programmer.
>>>>
>>>Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
>>>comments are
>>>missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
>>>>
>>>Michael
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Yes, I know what you mean -- I've noticed that pattern. :-)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:u%****************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Robin,
As you are longer active in these dotNet newsgroup you will (with
messages) meet more famous writers, I only know one who is not kind.
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:iu******************************@comcast.com. ..
>Wow, that's so cool.
My only Scott-Adams-claim-to-fame is I worked across the street
from where he worked (Pacific Bell), and in the middle of layoffs
(at our company), we e-mailed him and asked if we could take him
to lunch (it was before he was *quite* as popular), and he consented.
It was cool. He was really nice; signed all our books. :-)
Robin S.
------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.comca st.net...
>>>I worked with a lady who wrote to Scott Adams the idea about "smaller
font sizes taking up less disk space." She got a "thanks for the idea"
letter back from Adams and a preview copy of the panels for that
particular Dilbert strip, which she prized.
-----
Tim Patrick - www.timaki.com
Start-to-Finish Visual Basic 2005
LOL. Loved #2.
And if you delete some of those files on your computer, it won't weigh
as much. (attribution: Scott Adams)
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Tim Patrick" <in*****@invalid.com.invalidwrote in message
news:e3*************************@newsgroups.com cast.net...
The Top 10 Misconceptions about Commenting and Style (from The Visual
Basic .NET Style Guide)
>
1. Comments are extraneous since you can always understand the logic
by
looking at the code.
2. Indenting just wastes disk space.
3. I don't have time to add comments.
4. What does it matter how sloppy the code is? I'm not selling the
source
code.
5. Adding comments doesn't make the code run any better.
6. Hey man, don't bother me. This is my trademark coding style.
7. I comment every line of code. It makes the program so readable.
8. If there's a bug, I'll be able to fix it. It's not like I'm going
to
forget what this function does.
9. I'll go back later and add in the comments.
10. It's job security. If others can understand my code, they don't
need
me.
Ah, so being a new programmer automatically relegates me to the level of
being a 'cakehole'? Unworthy of nothing but your ire and derision? I
apologize to you if my statements made you feel so insecure that you had to
respond in the manner that you have. I was simply making the statement that
you cannot expect anyone to understand another's code without comments.Yet
you responded like any other troll would respond, with nothing but inane
tripe about something you know NOTHING about. If you wish to continue coding
without making comments, then by all means do so. But you should note deride
others because they think the practice is good and well-intentioned.
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@73g2000cwn.googlegro ups.com...
>I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
Seth,
Thanks for the welcome. I've lived too many years to allow someone like
'Master Programmer' to get under my skin. :)
Thanks for the welcome
Welcome to the newsgroup Bruce! I'm sure this goes without saying, but
this guy is nothing more than a wannabe programmer who gets a rush out
of flaming others. So believe it or not your opinions are welcome here,
dispite what this "Master Programmer" says. I promise - most of us here
are nice :-)
it doesn't mean that other people don't have a problem finding it.
Aaron,
Wasn't hard to find at all. Went to my newsreader and typed 'vb' into the
search box. came right up with any group that had vb in the title.
Highlighted the group and then clicked on the GoTo button and here I am. :)
' Say good by to the apostrophe
// because it's forward slash's for you all soon.
The Grand Master
VB 6.0 Jihad - Fight for your history and future
RobinS wrote:
Well, it does depend on the code. As I said, and Cor agreed
with, adding comments that repeat the code is redundant. I
just add them to explain why I chose a particular method --
maybe because of something else that's happening somewhere
in the (huge) application, or because of a business reason.
Or if the code is really complicated, I'll put something in
to give the general idea.
I have known a lot of programmers that don't believe in it, but
my guess is they've never written anything so complicated it
requires a 30-page document just to explain the calculations
(been there, wrote the document), or they *have*, but they've
never had to change it or maintain it. *Or* they don't mind
spending days going through every line of code trying to figure
out exactly what it does. Ugh.
I even worked for one person who went through and *removed* my
comments. They said it made it harder for them to read the code.
About a year later, they called up and asked if I had a copy of
the code w/the comments in it (I did), and could I help them
figure something out because they had to change something in the
business logic, and they didn't have enough time to figure it
out by going through the code.
I guess the bottom line is that I tend to be detail-oriented,
and think about the long-term, and a few comments in the code
seems to make sense to me. I also have an appalling habit of
writing documentation for the really complicated stuff (like
the aforementioned calculations) to leave behind me. That's
just me.
Other people can make their own choices.
And that's *my* two cents'.
Robin S.
---------------------------------------------
"Tom Leylan" <ge*@iamtiredofspam.comwrote in message
news:O9****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Robin:
How can we hope to have reasonable conversations when people are arguing
against comments. I don't know where they work but I've seen millions of
lines of code and I'm sure each programmer thought the code was completely
clear when in fact it was plainly not. What seems obvious as it is being
written won't be so obvious 3 years later when 8 of the original
programmers have quit. But let's say I include a SSort() routine, would
developers recognize it as a "stable sort" just by reading the code? I'll
guess that 90% of the VB programmers haven't heard of a stable sort so how
can they recognize one? I'll also guess "what a dork doesn't he know
there is a sort method" is what some of the folks here would say.
But that is only one use of comments. They have been elevated in status
through the use of things like JavaDoc (in Java). In large apps I've seen
3, 4 and 5 versions of "identical functionality" simply because none of
the programmers knew the other functions existed when they wrote their own
local version. An automated system for producing printed documentation
would go a long way to reducing this stuff.
We also use them to track changes. With business critical apps (and I
mean daily or weekly turnaround schedules) it is important to know what
changed, who changed it, when it was changed and why it was changed.
There is no more sensible place to put this information than next to the
code that actually changed. And if you made a undocumented modification
and the $14 million a year client dropped the company because your change
ruined their system you can bet there would be repercussions.
They aren't fun, and the system isn't perfect but how on Earth can anybody
be arguing against commenting? I suspect it's a game... the "your code is
inferior because you have to comment it" gambit. But my code isn't
inferior it is as good or better and it has reasonable and useful comments
as well.
These types of threads come about continually, it's part of the coming of
age of software developers. I've had programmers (who "knew" they were
the greatest) tell me that programmers don't read documentation. When I
challenged that statement he asked if I thought the majority of
programmers read the docs and I answered, "no not the majority, just the
good ones."
Well that's my 2 cents... everybody carry on :-)
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.nonewrote in message
news:Bo******************************@comcast.com. ..
It *does* help if he has more than average knowledge, but I
don't like to assume that whoever comes along behind me *does*.
Plus, why should the poor guy have to spend extra time figuring
it out, when I can just put in a comment for him?
Also, frequently it's a business-rule kind of thing, that's
not documented anywhere for the programmer. While I *love*
to get written business requirements from my clients, I rarely do.
The specs for the last application I wrote were in the form
of a bunch of fields written on a piece of paper torn out of
a spiral notebook with the instructions "These are in three
different applications that we use, can you please figure out
how to get only *our* data out of those applications, for
only these fields, and put them in a central repository for us?"
I like to leave external documentation behind with my finished
applications (in this case, I documented the database/table/fieldname,
and in most cases, the query used), but that's not always possible.
To each their own, I just like to leave a helping hand to
whoever comes along behind me. It only takes me a few seconds.
(I type 100+ wpm).
Robin S.
---------------------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:uG**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Robin,
Your particular comment suggest that the one who read it is able to
understand what you are saying.
In this case he needs some more than average knowledge of code to
understand why something is done. That one does not need your comment,
he/she sees it and thinks, whow I would not have done it that way,
however according the quality of the rest of the program the developer
should have had a special reason for that. Let me think twice and than
probably sees the why.
For a beginner this kind of comments has no sense even with the comment
they don't understand it.
However again just my personal opinion.
In my opinion a good comment can be:
'See document xyz for an explanation of mathematics in the used code
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:tM******************************@comcast.com ...
I understand what you're saying. I'm not talking about comments
like this:
'define a variable to hold the count
Dim count as Integer
I'm talking about comments like this, that explain something out of
the ordinary, or explain *why* something is done a particular way:
'routine X seems like the logical place to put this instead
' of here in routine Y, but if you put it there instead of
' here, the dire consequences will be this
' (insert dire consequences). So even though this
' seems counterintuitive, don't move it. You'll regret it.
(seemingly oddly-placed code)
Robin S.
---------------------
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:O5**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Tim and Robin,
Do you know what is the trouble with me.
I can always better read code than even my own in any language written
comments.
Beside me I have seen that most developers are not given with rich
possibilities to write comments (and to tell something you can
disagree with me; I have seen that those who are able to write very
nice comments often make very bad code).
Just my thought,
:-)
Cor
"RobinS" <Ro****@NoSpam.yah.noneschreef in bericht
news:SY******************************@comcast.c om...
>I don't agree. I've written some really complicated programs
with complex statistical calculations, and I always put
in comments, if not for the poor guy who comes after me, then
for me 6 months later when I'm no longer working on it, and I
have to go back and fix it. It's been 2 years since I left
that software behind, and I still get e-mails thanking me for
documenting my code so well.
>
Robin S.
----------------------------------
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@n67g2000cwd.goog legroups.com...
>No code should EVER need one single comment if it is written
>properly.
>It should be easy to follow without ANY explanation needed. If your
>code needs comments to describe it then I suggest you go back to
>school.
>>
>The Grand Master
>>
>>
>Michael C wrote:
>>"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
>>news:11**********************@j72g2000cwa.go oglegroups.com...
>Good programming is about leaving breadcrumbs for the next
>person. Not
>trying to show off by writting code that is not immediatly
>obvious. If
>it needs any comments to describe it - then you are a useless
>programmer.
>>>
>>Hardly. I'd say if it needs comments to describe it and those
>>comments are
>>missing then you're a sloppy programmer.
>>>
>>Michael
>>
>
>
I didnt call you a cake-hole you idiot, I told you to shut your
cake-hole (your fucking mouth). When you have aquired a lot of
experience (like me) then - AND ONLY THEN - will you be permitted to
add your opinion.
It is common knowledge that bad programmers leave comments (maybe not
so common around here - LOL). If you want to add a load of comments
saying what every single line of your code does thats up to you.
However if you were a real expert you wouldnt need to.
The Grand Master
VB 6.0 Jihad - Take back what belongs to us
Bruce W. Darby wrote:
Ah, so being a new programmer automatically relegates me to the level of
being a 'cakehole'? Unworthy of nothing but your ire and derision? I
apologize to you if my statements made you feel so insecure that you had to
respond in the manner that you have. I was simply making the statement that
you cannot expect anyone to understand another's code without comments.Yet
you responded like any other troll would respond, with nothing but inane
tripe about something you know NOTHING about. If you wish to continue coding
without making comments, then by all means do so. But you should note deride
others because they think the practice is good and well-intentioned.
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@73g2000cwn.googlegro ups.com...
I'm fairly new to programing, though I have been in the computer industry
That shows. Go off and spend a few years learning how to program then
come back with some useful comments. In the meantime shut your
cake-hole.
No-one wants to read a load of boring comments saying exactly what to
do with a piece of code. If the code is written properly then there
should not be any need to add "one single comment". Good code is easy
to read - bad code needs comments - end of story. Any statement to the
contrary is absolutly incorrect.
I find it disturbing that the language EVEN PERMITS you to add
comments. That is a feature that should be removed, thereby forcing
people to program properly, instead of being lazy-idle shites that
think they can add a bit of text to mask their inadequate skills.
The Grand Master
So you admit that you cannot respond to a simple comment with anything less
than complete and utter filth. A programmer of many years, such as you claim
to be, is an educated individual who would not NEED to use such filth to get
his point across. The only time I have seen the use of such language is from
uneducated, young trolls on the Internet who think that the bastion of
separation that they are provided by the Internet allows them to speak any
way they wish without consequence. Thank you for bearing out my supposition
so clearly.
And I have not stated that commenting "every single line of code' is
necessary. YOU tried to put those words into my mouth. Quite unsanitary, to
say the least. :) I simply stated that commenting code is a good business
practice.
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@l12g2000cwl.googlegro ups.com...
>I didnt call you a cake-hole you idiot, I told you to shut your
cake-hole (your fucking mouth). When you have aquired a lot of
experience (like me) then - AND ONLY THEN - will you be permitted to
add your opinion.
It is common knowledge that bad programmers leave comments (maybe not
so common around here - LOL). If you want to add a load of comments
saying what every single line of your code does thats up to you.
However if you were a real expert you wouldnt need to.
Master Programmer, long ago I learned never to consider myself an 'expert'.
The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I live with the knowledge
that I am never going to 'know it all'. And yet, I am good with that. If you
need the security blanket of the Internet to pound your chest and tell the
world that you are better than anyone else, just remember... an 'ex' is a
has been... and a 'spert' is a drip under pressure!
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@79g2000cws.googlegro ups.com...
>' Say good by to the apostrophe
// because it's forward slash's for you all soon.
The Grand Master
VB 6.0 Jihad - Fight for your history and future
//I can deal with that.
//I'm *flexible*.
Robin S.
Hey Aaaron
Check this out ! RobinS has finally admitted that VB is going to be
history.
Steve
RobinS wrote:
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@79g2000cws.googlegro ups.com...
' Say good by to the apostrophe
// because it's forward slash's for you all soon.
The Grand Master
VB 6.0 Jihad - Fight for your history and future
//I can deal with that.
//I'm *flexible*.
Robin S.
You are just as immature and pathetic as Master Programmer. The only
reason he is still here is because he keeps getting a response from you
- and you always reply. I think you should both grow up.
S Verity
Bruce W. Darby wrote:
So you admit that you cannot respond to a simple comment with anything less
than complete and utter filth. A programmer of many years, such as you claim
to be, is an educated individual who would not NEED to use such filth to get
his point across. The only time I have seen the use of such language is from
uneducated, young trolls on the Internet who think that the bastion of
separation that they are provided by the Internet allows them to speak any
way they wish without consequence. Thank you for bearing out my supposition
so clearly.
And I have not stated that commenting "every single line of code' is
necessary. YOU tried to put those words into my mouth. Quite unsanitary, to
say the least. :) I simply stated that commenting code is a good business
practice.
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@l12g2000cwl.googlegro ups.com...
I didnt call you a cake-hole you idiot, I told you to shut your
cake-hole (your fucking mouth). When you have aquired a lot of
experience (like me) then - AND ONLY THEN - will you be permitted to
add your opinion.
It is common knowledge that bad programmers leave comments (maybe not
so common around here - LOL). If you want to add a load of comments
saying what every single line of your code does thats up to you.
However if you were a real expert you wouldnt need to.
Master Programmer, long ago I learned never to consider myself an 'expert'.
The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I live with the knowledge
that I am never going to 'know it all'. And yet, I am good with that. If you
need the security blanket of the Internet to pound your chest and tell the
world that you are better than anyone else, just remember... an 'ex' is a
has been... and a 'spert' is a drip under pressure!
Miss, or Ms,. Verity,
So you think I'm immature? My apologies, but Master Programmer, and Aaron
Kempf as well, have been getting posts from more folk than myself. Some very
good and well thought out posts as well. If I am immature to respond to a
person who is using profanity and degrading me as a human being, then so be
it. If you wish to just stick your head in the sand and hope that he will
just 'go away', then you are the immature one. He was here long before I
started posting here and he'll most likely be here long after I'm gone, from
the sound of things. I have done the 'right' mature thing and blocked any
messages from him from my newsreader. I do thank you for your response to
me, but you come across as a heavy-handed 'do what I say, not what I do'
type. If I am off-base on this, then I do submit my most abject apologies.
But before you start calling folks pathetic, think of what the reaction will
be to how YOU are perceived from your post.
<ve**********@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:11*********************@l12g2000cwl.googlegro ups.com...
You are just as immature and pathetic as Master Programmer. The only
reason he is still here is because he keeps getting a response from you
- and you always reply. I think you should both grow up.
S Verity
Bruce W. Darby wrote:
>So you admit that you cannot respond to a simple comment with anything
less
than complete and utter filth. A programmer of many years, such as you
claim
to be, is an educated individual who would not NEED to use such filth to
get
his point across. The only time I have seen the use of such language is
from
uneducated, young trolls on the Internet who think that the bastion of
separation that they are provided by the Internet allows them to speak
any
way they wish without consequence. Thank you for bearing out my
supposition
so clearly.
And I have not stated that commenting "every single line of code' is
necessary. YOU tried to put those words into my mouth. Quite unsanitary,
to
say the least. :) I simply stated that commenting code is a good business
practice.
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@l12g2000cwl.googlegr oups.com...
>I didnt call you a cake-hole you idiot, I told you to shut your
cake-hole (your fucking mouth). When you have aquired a lot of
experience (like me) then - AND ONLY THEN - will you be permitted to
add your opinion.
It is common knowledge that bad programmers leave comments (maybe not
so common around here - LOL). If you want to add a load of comments
saying what every single line of your code does thats up to you.
However if you were a real expert you wouldnt need to.
Master Programmer, long ago I learned never to consider myself an
'expert'.
The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I live with the
knowledge
that I am never going to 'know it all'. And yet, I am good with that. If
you
need the security blanket of the Internet to pound your chest and tell
the
world that you are better than anyone else, just remember... an 'ex' is a
has been... and a 'spert' is a drip under pressure!
To all that take advantage of this newsgroup, I extend my most abject
apologies for allowing this to go this far. Stephany, thanks for the heads
up on the makecab stuff, any others that have presented me with information
and pointers in the correct direction, I also extend my thanks to you for
that.
"Bruce W. Darby" <kr****@comcast.netwrote in message
news:IK******************************@comcast.com. ..
Miss, or Ms,. Verity,
So you think I'm immature? My apologies, but Master Programmer, and Aaron
Kempf as well, have been getting posts from more folk than myself. Some
very good and well thought out posts as well. If I am immature to respond
to a person who is using profanity and degrading me as a human being, then
so be it. If you wish to just stick your head in the sand and hope that he
will just 'go away', then you are the immature one. He was here long
before I started posting here and he'll most likely be here long after I'm
gone, from the sound of things. I have done the 'right' mature thing and
blocked any messages from him from my newsreader. I do thank you for your
response to me, but you come across as a heavy-handed 'do what I say, not
what I do' type. If I am off-base on this, then I do submit my most abject
apologies. But before you start calling folks pathetic, think of what the
reaction will be to how YOU are perceived from your post.
<ve**********@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:11*********************@l12g2000cwl.googlegro ups.com...
>You are just as immature and pathetic as Master Programmer. The only
reason he is still here is because he keeps getting a response from you
- and you always reply. I think you should both grow up.
S Verity
Bruce W. Darby wrote:
>>So you admit that you cannot respond to a simple comment with anything
less
than complete and utter filth. A programmer of many years, such as you
claim
to be, is an educated individual who would not NEED to use such filth to
get
his point across. The only time I have seen the use of such language is
from
uneducated, young trolls on the Internet who think that the bastion of
separation that they are provided by the Internet allows them to speak
any
way they wish without consequence. Thank you for bearing out my
supposition
so clearly.
And I have not stated that commenting "every single line of code' is
necessary. YOU tried to put those words into my mouth. Quite unsanitary,
to
say the least. :) I simply stated that commenting code is a good
business
practice.
"Master Programmer" <ma***************@outgun.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@l12g2000cwl.googleg roups.com...
I didnt call you a cake-hole you idiot, I told you to shut your
cake-hole (your fucking mouth). When you have aquired a lot of
experience (like me) then - AND ONLY THEN - will you be permitted to
add your opinion.
It is common knowledge that bad programmers leave comments (maybe not
so common around here - LOL). If you want to add a load of comments
saying what every single line of your code does thats up to you.
However if you were a real expert you wouldnt need to.
Master Programmer, long ago I learned never to consider myself an
'expert'.
The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I live with the
knowledge
that I am never going to 'know it all'. And yet, I am good with that. If
you
need the security blanket of the Internet to pound your chest and tell
the
world that you are better than anyone else, just remember... an 'ex' is
a
has been... and a 'spert' is a drip under pressure!
This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics
by: Kenneth McDonald |
last post by:
I'm looking for a Wiki engine to set up for my company, so that we
can incrementally add user documentation for a fairly complex
program, plus allow users to add their own comments for the benefit...
|
by: Support |
last post by:
Hi,
I want to know if I have changed a few records in my database using update /
insert / delete methods, how can i later know which rows have been changed
or modified ?
I know the...
|
by: Unforgiven |
last post by:
I have the following situation:
Given this class:
template<typename T>
class Expression {
/* omitted */
};
This is the base class for a BooleanExpression and an ArithmeticExpression.
|
by: cfmortgagepro |
last post by:
Hi,
I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you...
|
by: l.woods |
last post by:
I want to set up my CATCH for a specific exception, but I really don't know
which one of the multitude that it is. I am getting the exception now with
Catch ex as Exception
but I want to be...
|
by: mike3 |
last post by:
Hi.
(Xposted to both comp.lang.c++ and comp.programming since I've got
questions related to both C++ language and general programming)
I've got the following C++ code. The first routine runs in...
|
by: nemocccc |
last post by:
hello, everyone, I want to develop a software for my android phone for daily needs, any suggestions?
|
by: Hystou |
last post by:
There are some requirements for setting up RAID:
1. The motherboard and BIOS support RAID configuration.
2. The motherboard has 2 or more available SATA protocol SSD/HDD slots (including MSATA, M.2...
|
by: marktang |
last post by:
ONU (Optical Network Unit) is one of the key components for providing high-speed Internet services. Its primary function is to act as an endpoint device located at the user's premises. However,...
|
by: Oralloy |
last post by:
Hello folks,
I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>".
The problem is that using the GNU compilers,...
|
by: Hystou |
last post by:
Overview:
Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows...
|
by: tracyyun |
last post by:
Dear forum friends,
With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each...
|
by: conductexam |
last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and...
|
by: TSSRALBI |
last post by:
Hello
I'm a network technician in training and I need your help.
I am currently learning how to create and manage the different types of VPNs and I have a question about LAN-to-LAN VPNs.
The...
|
by: adsilva |
last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
| |
