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Beating a dead Horse: Which Language

P: n/a
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!
Nov 17 '05 #1
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106 Replies


P: n/a
cf***********@yahoo.com wrote:
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)
Its not "cooler" just green, and I prefer green over blue :)
Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Honestly I think that both would suit your simple requirements just fine
so it comes down to a preference of which syntax you prefer.

VB.Net is possibly "simpler" for a novice as it gives you quite a bit of
help with filling out constructs such as if/where/for/properties etc..
and gives you design time syntax checking with background compile.

Personally I prefer c# but thats just me.

JB

Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 17 '05 #2

P: n/a
Do both.

Learn the framework and learn both languages. Then become polished in
whichever the first project is on - that is what you will get most practise
with anyway.

- Sahil Malik [MVP]
Upcoming ADO.NET 2.0 book - http://tinyurl.com/9bync
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

<cf***********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zZ****************@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 17 '05 #3

P: n/a
WJ

<cf***********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zZ****************@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Hi,

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition,
Then MS/Access form for client and or MS/FrontPage for web applications
would best fit your need. Now a day, MS/Office Pro also gives you a so
called InfoPath 2003 that is similar to Access Form but work with .Net and
XML and SQL/Server backend RDBMS.

c# is for true "serious" people who want to become "the developer". c# may
frustrate you more !

In short, you must love it both in good and bad times in order to understand
its potential !
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client
MS/Access, FrontPage, InfoPath 2003, VB, Java Script can do these tricks as
well and cheap and 1,000 times easiers than .Net languages.
to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....
This is a very tough bone for a novice programmer to chew!

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission.
If you still insist on .Net languages, then c# is in both ISO and ECMA
organizations while VB is very Microsoft. Lets imagine that tomorrow, CUS is
nuked and you have to sail to Italy, without c#, them EU bosses don't know
what VB mean, this can mean Very Bad for you. So c# will come to rescue you
and your family in the darkest hours !!! VERY TRUE !!!
but everyone I come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
That's called smart programming !

Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Same here!

Thank you in advance!


Good luck to you, Novice!

John Webb
Nov 17 '05 #4

P: n/a
WJ

"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> wrote in message
news:OY*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

<cf***********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zZ****************@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
but everyone I come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net


Correction needed: In .Net, c-sharp is written as c#, not C#. C# is a
musical symbol, it denotes Do Major (in Italian), in English, it is a C
Major !
Now, this case-sensitive thing alone will drive a novice crazy!

JWebb
Nov 17 '05 #5

P: n/a
"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:OY*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
If you still insist on .Net languages, then c# is in both ISO and ECMA
organizations while VB is very Microsoft. Lets imagine that tomorrow,
CUS is nuked and you have to sail to Italy, without c#, them EU bosses
don't know what VB mean, this can mean Very Bad for you. So c#
will come to rescue you and your family in the darkest hours !!!
VERY TRUE !!!


I don't know why you named Italy, but I'd *love* the situation to be as you
described; actually, there are lots of VB programmers here, and they're
often very bad ones who tought "hey, with VB I can make programs without
knowing anything at all about programming!".
Now, they got quite frustrated by this .NET thing, and tought again "sure
VB.NET is going to be a lot simpler than that C#, and I also already know
VB, so using it will be even simpler!".
And then, they got *even more* frustrated when they discovered that VB.NET
isn't actually *so* similar to VB 6 as they were expecting, and then
reverted back to VB 6. And their companies went with them, instead of firing
them at once.

This is definitely one of the strangest places to work in IT :-/
Massimo

Nov 17 '05 #6

P: n/a
WJ

"Massimo" <ba****@mclink.it> wrote in message
news:O5**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I don't know why you named Italy,


I love Italy ! On top of that, I am a Roman Catholic . Though I never
realized that there are that many VBs overthere until you said so! So
ignorance I am !

John
Nov 17 '05 #7

P: n/a
> c# is for true "serious" people who want to become "the developer". c# may
frustrate you more !
I'm a humurous people, I am a developer, and I am not frustrated - but I
know C#.

- Sahil Malik [MVP]
Upcoming ADO.NET 2.0 book - http://tinyurl.com/9bync
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> wrote in message
news:OY*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
<cf***********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zZ****************@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Hi,

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition,


Then MS/Access form for client and or MS/FrontPage for web applications
would best fit your need. Now a day, MS/Office Pro also gives you a so
called InfoPath 2003 that is similar to Access Form but work with .Net and
XML and SQL/Server backend RDBMS.

c# is for true "serious" people who want to become "the developer". c# may
frustrate you more !

In short, you must love it both in good and bad times in order to
understand its potential !
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client


MS/Access, FrontPage, InfoPath 2003, VB, Java Script can do these tricks
as well and cheap and 1,000 times easiers than .Net languages.
to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....


This is a very tough bone for a novice programmer to chew!

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission.


If you still insist on .Net languages, then c# is in both ISO and ECMA
organizations while VB is very Microsoft. Lets imagine that tomorrow, CUS
is nuked and you have to sail to Italy, without c#, them EU bosses don't
know what VB mean, this can mean Very Bad for you. So c# will come to
rescue you and your family in the darkest hours !!! VERY TRUE !!!
but everyone I come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net

That's called smart programming !

Please, NO FLAMES; just logic

Same here!

Thank you in advance!


Good luck to you, Novice!

John Webb

Nov 17 '05 #8

P: n/a
WJ
:)
Nov 17 '05 #9

P: n/a
but everyone I come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net


this means nothing, think about it

stax
Nov 17 '05 #10

P: n/a
Languages are passe... Pimp the framework and the rest will fall into place.

--
W.G. Ryan MVP (Windows Embedded)

TiBA Solutions
www.tibasolutions.com | www.devbuzz.com | www.knowdotnet.com
<cf***********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zZ****************@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 17 '05 #11

P: n/a
Knowing one is nearly to know the other. VB.Net is much closer to C# than it
is to VB "classic". I do agree with you that some people turn up their nose
at the mere mention of anything with "VB" in its name, but thats somewhat
showing their ignorance also. Best just to know both, and not so difficult
to slide across once you know one.

<cf***********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zZ****************@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 17 '05 #12

P: n/a
WJ <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> wrote:
Correction needed: In .Net, c-sharp is written as c#, not C#. C# is a
musical symbol, it denotes Do Major (in Italian), in English, it is a C
Major !
Now, this case-sensitive thing alone will drive a novice crazy!


Just in case you were serious - C# is capitalised, according to the
language specification.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 17 '05 #13

P: n/a
"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> schrieb:
but everyone I come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net


Correction needed: In .Net, c-sharp is written as c#, not C#. C# is a
musical symbol, it denotes Do Major (in Italian), in English, it is a C
Major !
Now, this case-sensitive thing alone will drive a novice crazy!


It's actually "C#", 'Visual Basic .NET" ("VB.NET") and ".NET".

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>
Nov 17 '05 #14

P: n/a
Hi,

Seeing as noone seems to have touched the issues I find important ...

If you have no background in C/C++/Java or similar you may find VB.NET easier to understand simply because it has less symbols and more logical words. If you have dabbled in C/C++/Java or similar you may find C# to be easier to do.

There are no real performance differences between C# and VB.NET. With a few minor exceptions they are each capable of doing the same things.

As Malik said, what takes time is learning to know the framework, which is identical for all .NET languages. If you read the questions in these groups you will find that the answers in many cases are language independent, valid for both C# and VB.NET. And in those cases that it is language dependent, translating it to the other language is a simple task.

Go with what you prefer, either is fine.
--
Happy coding!
Morten Wennevik [C# MVP]
Nov 17 '05 #15

P: n/a
I have the same opinion: C# en VB.NET are really close. It just depends on
preferences.
I used to work in VB6, so VB.NET seemed the most logic thing to me. but if
you know VB.NET, you automaticly can work in C# too: it's the same syntax,
they just put it a little bit otherwise on the form, like this:
- VB.NET: "I am a programmer"
- C#: "{A programmer I am}"
One of the things I really dislike about C# is the fact that you have to put
al those {}{}{}{} :-)

"Morten Wennevik" <Mo************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:op.ss2hf2vzklbvpo@stone...
Hi,

Seeing as noone seems to have touched the issues I find important ...

If you have no background in C/C++/Java or similar you may find VB.NET easier to understand simply because it has less symbols and more logical
words. If you have dabbled in C/C++/Java or similar you may find C# to be
easier to do.
There are no real performance differences between C# and VB.NET. With a few minor exceptions they are each capable of doing the same things.
As Malik said, what takes time is learning to know the framework, which is identical for all .NET languages. If you read the questions in these groups
you will find that the answers in many cases are language independent, valid
for both C# and VB.NET. And in those cases that it is language dependent,
translating it to the other language is a simple task.
Go with what you prefer, either is fine.
--
Happy coding!
Morten Wennevik [C# MVP]

Nov 17 '05 #16

P: n/a

"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> escribió en el mensaje
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
It's actually "C#", 'Visual Basic .NET" ("VB.NET") and ".NET".


"Visual C#" ;-)

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/
--
Best regards,

Carlos J. Quintero

MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA
You can code, design and document much faster.
Free resources for add-in developers:
http://www.mztools.com
Nov 17 '05 #17

P: n/a
I agree on this. Languages are only a thin "layer" to learn on top of the
..NET Framework beast.
--
Best regards,

Carlos J. Quintero

MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA
You can code, design and document much faster.
Free resources for add-in developers:
http://www.mztools.com
"Sahil Malik [MVP]" <co*****************@nospam.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Do both.

Learn the framework and learn both languages. Then become polished in
whichever the first project is on - that is what you will get most
practise with anyway.

- Sahil Malik [MVP]

Nov 17 '05 #18

P: n/a
"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> wrote in message
news:O1**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Correction needed: In .Net, c-sharp is written as c#, not C#. C# is a
musical symbol, it denotes Do Major (in Italian), in English, it is a C
Major !


No it isn't - C# is the black note between C natural and D natural.
Nov 17 '05 #19

P: n/a
Hi,

I have seen a lot of discussion about this. Only one guy impressed me with
what and how he wrote about this subject.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...cce63bb7?hl=en

I hope this gives an idea.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #20

P: n/a
put some c# source and some vb.net source side by side, have a good
look at them and choose the one where you like the look of the source
better.

(I was going to say 'flip a coin', but you wanted logic, and logic
tells me it would be better to work with the language you like the
looks of) :)

Sam

cf***********@yahoo.com schrieb:
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!


Nov 17 '05 #21

P: n/a
"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:uP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I don't know why you named Italy,
I love Italy !


Me too, I live here ;-)
The country is beaufitul, but the people... well... if you're a tourist
they're ok, but if you're trying to ever accomplish *anything*, this is
absolutely not the best place :-/
This is especially true for IT jobs... IT here was ruined by legions of
wanna-be programmers, technicians and sysadmins who bought "computer
programming for dummies" (or things like that) and then tried to get a job,
and stupid companies managed by people who don't even know what a computer
is but think they can get rich with them.
On top of that, I am a Roman Catholic.
This always seemed strange to me... I can go to st. Peter's in 15 minutes,
and there are people from all over the world who only saw it in pictures
:-)))
Though I never realized that there are that many VBs overthere
until you said so! So ignorance I am !


Yes, there are... and many of them are as I described above. If you saw a
RecordSet being used by one of them as I saw one, you would have wept over
that poor RecordSet's tragic fate :-(

Massimo

Nov 17 '05 #22

P: n/a
"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:uP**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
I don't know why you named Italy,


I love Italy ! On top of that, I am a Roman Catholic . Though I never
realized that there are that many VBs overthere until you said so! So
ignorance I am !


By the way: I prefer C#, but it's only a syntax thing.
I never used VB (altough I know something about it), but used C, C++ and
Java extensively... and I definitely prefer { and } over BEGIN and END.
Massimo

Nov 17 '05 #23

P: n/a
Massimo,
... and I definitely prefer { and } over BEGIN and END.

That was what I too was always thinking.

I see now large benefits from the seperated kinds of begin and ends in
Visual Basic.

A nested procedure 6 deep with only {} do I find already almost a crime.

In VBNet I have not seen the maximum of that and it stays still stays
readable.

Just my thought about this

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #24

P: n/a
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:37:51 GMT, cf***********@yahoo.com wrote:
¤ I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
¤ mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
¤ language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
¤ come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
¤

What did they say when you asked them why?
Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
Nov 17 '05 #25

P: n/a
Carlos,

"Carlos J. Quintero [.NET MVP]" <ca*****@NOSPAMsogecable.com> schrieb:
It's actually "C#", 'Visual Basic .NET" ("VB.NET") and ".NET".


"Visual C#" ;-)

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/


Visual C# is Microsoft's product. The language's name accoding to the ECMA
specification is C#:

<URL:http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm>

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 17 '05 #26

P: n/a
Obviously, the best solution is to use both languages (and J# also) and then
buy our converters to switch between them as often as possible.
;)

David Anton
www.tangiblesoftwaresolutions.com
Home of:
Instant C#: VB.NET to C# Converter
Instant VB: C# to VB.NET Converter
Instant J#: VB.NET to J# Converter

"cf***********@yahoo.com" wrote:
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 17 '05 #27

P: n/a
Yes, yes, I know, although my impression is that nobody uses the term
"Visual C#"...

--
Best regards,

Carlos J. Quintero

MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA
You can code, design and document much faster.
Free resources for add-in developers:
http://www.mztools.com

"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> escribió en el mensaje
news:OT**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Visual C# is Microsoft's product. The language's name accoding to the
ECMA specification is C#:

<URL:http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm>


Nov 17 '05 #28

P: n/a
As a programmer in both, more VB.NET than Visual C#, I will echo some of
the sentiments and share my own.

Being that you are a novice programmer, it may be easier and faster for
you to start with VB.NET as opposed to C#. This curve is a bit dependent
on what tools you are using to learn with.

C#'s case dependence, bracketing, and lack of real human readable
keywords and syntax may make the transition a little longer than with
VB. The case issue was fixed in Whidbey with better Intellisense, so
this may not be an issue for you anymore... but there is something to be
said for being able to decipher how code blocks work when you are
looking at something like:

for Counter as integer = 0 to MyCollection.Count
....
next

versus

for (int Counter = 0; Counter < MyCollection.Count; Counter++)
{
}

It is less verbose, but does not convey terribly clearly what is happening.

That having been said... I can say that my usage of C# with VB.NET has
made me a much better programmer overall. Why? Because C# forces you in
some degree to pay attention to concise, clear code. This translates
well into VB.NET, despite the somewhat more verbose syntax.

Lastly, while totally undeserved, there is something to be said in the
community about being able to program in C# than VB.NET. I think part of
this is Microsoft's fault (I wont change the thread here by launching
into my reasons why I believe this), part is from the general perception
since the early VB days of it being a "toy" language.

My 2 cents, thrown in with the rest of the group.
Morten Wennevik wrote:
Hi,

Seeing as noone seems to have touched the issues I find important ...

If you have no background in C/C++/Java or similar you may find VB.NET
easier to understand simply because it has less symbols and more logical
words. If you have dabbled in C/C++/Java or similar you may find C# to
be easier to do.

There are no real performance differences between C# and VB.NET. With a
few minor exceptions they are each capable of doing the same things.

As Malik said, what takes time is learning to know the framework, which
is identical for all .NET languages. If you read the questions in these
groups you will find that the answers in many cases are language
independent, valid for both C# and VB.NET. And in those cases that it
is language dependent, translating it to the other language is a simple
task.

Go with what you prefer, either is fine.

Nov 17 '05 #29

P: n/a
> Obviously, the best solution is to use both languages (and J# also) and
then
buy our converters to switch between them as often as possible.
;)

LOL
Nov 17 '05 #30

P: n/a
"Carlos J. Quintero [.NET MVP]" <ca*****@NOSPAMsogecable.com> schrieb:
Yes, yes, I know, although my impression is that nobody uses the term
"Visual C#"...


ACK! And /really nobody/ uses the plain term "Basic" when talking about
Visual Basic .NET, except Microsoft in the VS.NET IDE properties dialog ;-).

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 17 '05 #31

P: n/a
The programming language that's best for you is a function of where you come
from. As Morten so clearly said, if you come from the OO-style languages C#
will be more comfortable but there's also Managed C++ for those folks and J#
as well. VB.NET was originally designed to help VB6 developers transition to
..NET. That's because at the time almost 80% of developers used VB6. It has
evolved over time (and is still evolving) to help developer productivity.
You'll find more differences in the Visual Studio.NET IDE than anywhere
else. In the current versions (and more so in older versions) C# required
you to constantly rebuild your project to resolve addressing. C# is always
going to be case sensitive (which is a royal PITA) and pretty anal. Newer
versions of C# have included on-the-fly compilation (finally) and
edit-and-continue (unless they dropped it again)--but so does VB.NET (which
always did on-the-fly compilation). VB.NET also has a new "My" namespace to
vastly simplify some of the more convoluted framework references. But again,
they build virtually identical IL.

--
____________________________________
William (Bill) Vaughn
Author, Mentor, Consultant
Microsoft MVP
www.betav.com/blog/billva
www.betav.com
Please reply only to the newsgroup so that others can benefit.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
__________________________________

"Morten Wennevik" <Mo************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:op.ss2hf2vzklbvpo@stone...
Hi,

Seeing as noone seems to have touched the issues I find important ...

If you have no background in C/C++/Java or similar you may find VB.NET
easier to understand simply because it has less symbols and more logical
words. If you have dabbled in C/C++/Java or similar you may find C# to be
easier to do.

There are no real performance differences between C# and VB.NET. With a
few minor exceptions they are each capable of doing the same things.

As Malik said, what takes time is learning to know the framework, which is
identical for all .NET languages. If you read the questions in these
groups you will find that the answers in many cases are language
independent, valid for both C# and VB.NET. And in those cases that it is
language dependent, translating it to the other language is a simple task.

Go with what you prefer, either is fine.
--
Happy coding!
Morten Wennevik [C# MVP]

Nov 17 '05 #32

P: n/a
Yes, sure it is. Go back to your piano and let us get some work done.

--
____________________________________
William (Bill) Vaughn
Author, Mentor, Consultant
Microsoft MVP
www.betav.com/blog/billva
www.betav.com
Please reply only to the newsgroup so that others can benefit.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
__________________________________

"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eb**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
"WJ" <Jo*******@HotMail.Com> wrote in message
news:O1**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Correction needed: In .Net, c-sharp is written as c#, not C#. C# is a
musical symbol, it denotes Do Major (in Italian), in English, it is a C
Major !


No it isn't - C# is the black note between C natural and D natural.

Nov 17 '05 #33

P: n/a
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:eo**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
A nested procedure 6 deep with only {} do I find already almost a crime.


A nested procedure with six depth levels is a crime anyway :-)

Massimo

Nov 17 '05 #34

P: n/a
cf***********@yahoo.com wrote:
Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I
have no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that
it would be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe
write a simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by
internet as well. My programing will be centered around Data
manipulation, i.e. collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to
myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish
my mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with
the language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but
everyone I come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net


The one thing that hasn't been mentioned, that I saw, is the direction that
Microsoft is pushing the languages towards in 2.0. The last time I went to
a presentation on this, which was a while ago, each language had been given
a particular focus.

The focus for VB.Net in 2.0 was to be the rapid application development
platform. They include the My.* heirarchy to allow for quick access to
various items... basically instant help. I believe that it also had
slightly better support, in the development UI, for developing forms, but I
could be misremembering.

The focus for C# was on back end business processing. As such it came with
facilities for assisting coding with standard Gang of Four patterns and the
ability to refactor code quite easily.

The focus for Managed C++ was for 'down and dirty' close to the framework,
fast as possible, type work.

Based on what you've said above, sounds like C# in 2.0 is better suited for
your likes and dislikes. But that's just a guess. And my recollection of
things may be off, as well as things may have changed.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]
Nov 17 '05 #35

P: n/a

"Massimo"
A nested procedure 6 deep with only {} do I find already almost a crime.


A nested procedure with six depth levels is a crime anyway :-)

You wrote that you never tried VBNet. You should try that, you would not
believe your eyes when you see how nice that is arranged by the IDE and how
good readable your programs become by nesting something even 10 or 12 (or
more) deep.

Just my thougth

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #36

P: n/a
All .Net languages are very similar because they ultimately produce the same
intermediate language and use the same application services. I have only
heard of (never experienced myself) a handful of capabilities in one that
doesn't exist in the other. That being said, each language is syntactically
different and has SUBTLE nuances that would be more appropriate to one
application or another. So if you really want to split hairs that is the
place to look.

You also may want to consider the possibility of if you will ever have to
look at legacy code. You might want the syntax you are familiar with to be
similar to what you are likely to encounter. Is it more likely to be C/C++
or VB?

Most serious commercial software and operating systems are written in C /
C++ with a little assembler thrown in. Other proprietary software written
for business and engineering has been written in dozens of languages,
PASCAL, FORTRAN, COBOL, ADA, SMALL TALK, POWER BUILDER, DELPHI, to name a
few. Most Microsoft applications and technologies that provide for scripting
support VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) a form of VB.

When it comes down to it all languages let you do the same thing, create and
access data structures and control the flow of logic. It will boil down to a
personal preference. For me C / C++ has always been the coolest thing
around. C# is a natural extension of this. It brings a lot of the niceties
of the higher level language to the syntax that is familiar to me. I think
also C# is the favored language of those who created .Net which is always
something to consider. The older you get the harder it is to be cool. You
might as well get it while you can.

<cf***********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zZ****************@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 17 '05 #37

P: n/a
"Carlos J. Quintero [.NET MVP]" wrote:
I agree on this. Languages are only a thin "layer" to learn on top of the
..NET Framework beast.


I'd go it a step farther and say that programming languages are only a thin
layer on top of programming concepts. Once you get proficient at the
underlying logic of writing code, it becomes merely a matter of a few days to
learn syntax and some good reference books to become functional in a new
language.
Nov 17 '05 #38

P: n/a
I tend to agree with that too, but modern languages (products?) come with
huge frameworks (class libraries) that you need to master too to avoid
reinventing the wheel while programming, so, yes, programming concepts
(structured, object-oriented) are important but class libraries too. So,
finally the syntax is almost irrelevant...

--
Best regards,

Carlos J. Quintero

MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA
You can code, design and document much faster.
Free resources for add-in developers:
http://www.mztools.com

"Andrew Faust" <af****@nospam.nospam> escribió en el mensaje
news:AC**********************************@microsof t.com...
"Carlos J. Quintero [.NET MVP]" wrote:
I'd go it a step farther and say that programming languages are only a
thin
layer on top of programming concepts. Once you get proficient at the
underlying logic of writing code, it becomes merely a matter of a few days
to
learn syntax and some good reference books to become functional in a new
language.

Nov 17 '05 #39

P: n/a
"Carlos J. Quintero [.NET MVP]" <ca*****@NOSPAMsogecable.com> schrieb:
I tend to agree with that too, but modern languages (products?) come with
huge frameworks (class libraries) that you need to master too to avoid
reinventing the wheel while programming, so, yes, programming concepts
(structured, object-oriented) are important but class libraries too. So,
finally the syntax is almost irrelevant...


ACK. However, often programming languages live longer than class
libraries... The stronger a programming language is tied to a certain
framework, the harder it will be to migrate the code to a new framework.

Consider VB's intrinsic functions -- some of these functions exist (with
slight adaptions) since early versions of BASIC and can still be used. I
see these functions as meta-framework which abstracts from the framework
currently used, and thus prefer these functions over corresponding
functionality which is part of the .NET Framework Class Library.

The implication from that is that I believe that programming languages
(syntax and meta-frameworks) are more than "sugar".

Just my two Euro cents...

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 17 '05 #40

P: n/a
Herfried,

ACK. However, often programming languages live longer than class
libraries... The stronger a programming language is tied to a certain
framework, the harder it will be to migrate the code to a new framework.

In my opinion is this against all what you have written the last months why
VB classic should be kept alive.

Programming language have the same (however quicker) evolution than natural
languages.

Class librarys have in my opinion to be consistent in there behaviour, even
when it is unwanted behaviour which is not a bug. This to fulfil what you
have written the last months.

Just my 2 eurocents.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #41

P: n/a
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> escribió en el mensaje
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
Consider VB's intrinsic functions -- some of these functions exist (with
slight adaptions) since early versions of BASIC and can still be used. I
see these functions as meta-framework which abstracts from the framework
currently used, and thus prefer these functions over corresponding
functionality which is part of the .NET Framework Class Library.


Interesting, although my view is the opposite: I prefer to use the functions
of the .NET Framework instead of the ones of the early Basic, since the code
is very tied to the .NET Framework anyway. Using the functions of the
framework makes it more easy to migrate to, say C#, or even Java (which uses
a different framework), IMHO.

--
Best regards,

Carlos J. Quintero

MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA
You can code, design and document much faster.
Free resources for add-in developers:
http://www.mztools.com
Nov 17 '05 #42

P: n/a
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> schrieb:
ACK. However, often programming languages live longer than class
libraries... The stronger a programming language is tied to a certain
framework, the harder it will be to migrate the code to a new framework.

In my opinion is this against all what you have written the last months
why VB classic should be kept alive.


The main problem with the Classic VB/VB.NET issue is that the languages are
not code-compatible although they could have been designed to be. That's
another topic which has been discussed several times in newsgroups. Despite
this incompatibility the VB.NET runtime library provides functionality which
is almost compatible with the corresponding functions of earlier BASIC
dialects, which means that some of the knowledge can be reused and code can
theoretically be reused if there were no breaking changes to the syntax like
the loss of support for arbitrary lower bounds of arrays etc.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 17 '05 #43

P: n/a
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
A nested procedure 6 deep with only {} do I find already almost a crime.


A nested procedure with six depth levels is a crime anyway :-)


You wrote that you never tried VBNet. You should try that, you would not
believe your eyes when you see how nice that is arranged by the IDE and
how good readable your programs become by nesting something even 10 or 12
(or more) deep.


I'm not talking about aesthetics here, but about docing; when you've a
procedure with *so much* code and flow control inside, probably it's time to
split it into more smaller ones.

Massimo

Nov 17 '05 #44

P: n/a
"Massimo"
I'm not talking about aesthetics here, but about docing; when you've a
procedure with *so much* code and flow control inside, probably it's time
to split it into more smaller ones.

Did you try VBNet. I agree completly with you when it are C derived
languages.

As I said, try it, and than tell your expirience after that. Now your answer
looks for me like somebody who tells that he/she never played footbal (there
was something else before), however talks about if he/she is an expert in
it.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #45

P: n/a
"Massimo" <ba****@mclink.it> schrieb:
A nested procedure 6 deep with only {} do I find already almost a
crime.

A nested procedure with six depth levels is a crime anyway :-)


You wrote that you never tried VBNet. You should try that, you would not
believe your eyes when you see how nice that is arranged by the IDE and
how good readable your programs become by nesting something even 10 or 12
(or more) deep.


I'm not talking about aesthetics here, but about docing; when you've a
procedure with *so much* code and flow control inside, probably it's time
to split it into more smaller ones.


The problem are not only blocks inside methods. Imagine an explicit
namespace definition with class definitions, nested classes, properties and
only a single additional 'if' block inside the property's getter. This
leads to six closing brackets. When implementing a complex algorithm it
gets even worse (up to ten nesting levels in total).

\\\
namespace Foo
{
public class Goo
{
public class Bar
{
public string Name
{
get
{
if (...)
{
...
}
}
}
}
}
}
///

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 17 '05 #46

P: n/a
Andrew Faust wrote:
"Carlos J. Quintero [.NET MVP]" wrote:
I agree on this. Languages are only a thin "layer" to learn on top
of the ..NET Framework beast.


I'd go it a step farther and say that programming languages are only
a thin layer on top of programming concepts. Once you get proficient
at the underlying logic of writing code, it becomes merely a matter
of a few days to learn syntax and some good reference books to become
functional in a new language.


There are a few exceptions to this.

For example, languages like Prolog, F#, LISP change some of the fundamental
nature of the way you think about what the code is and does. C++, for
example, encapsulates several different ways to code at once, which makes
reading it challenging at times.

But, certainly, within the confines of a particular paradigm (object
oriented/event driven/etc.) translating from one language to another is
quite simple.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]
Nov 17 '05 #47

P: n/a
Cor Ligthert <no************@planet.nl> wrote:
"Massimo"
I'm not talking about aesthetics here, but about docing; when you've a
procedure with *so much* code and flow control inside, probably it's time
to split it into more smaller ones.

Did you try VBNet. I agree completly with you when it are C derived
languages.

As I said, try it, and than tell your expirience after that. Now your answer
looks for me like somebody who tells that he/she never played footbal (there
was something else before), however talks about if he/she is an expert in
it.


What about VB makes it "okay" in your view to have such deeply nested
functionality that would be abhorrent in C#? If it's that you have "End
If" "End For" etc then there's absolutely nothing to stop you from
commenting your C# in the same way:

for (...)
{
if (...)
{
...
} // If
} // For

Personally I don't like it or feel any need for it, but there's nothing
stopping you from doing it if you feel it adds readability.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 17 '05 #48

P: n/a
Cor Ligthert <no************@planet.nl> wrote:
"Massimo"
I'm not talking about aesthetics here, but about docing; when you've a
procedure with *so much* code and flow control inside, probably it's time
to split it into more smaller ones.

Did you try VBNet. I agree completly with you when it are C derived
languages.

As I said, try it, and than tell your expirience after that. Now your answer
looks for me like somebody who tells that he/she never played footbal (there
was something else before), however talks about if he/she is an expert in
it.


What about VB makes it "okay" in your view to have such deeply nested
functionality that would be abhorrent in C#? If it's that you have "End
If" "End For" etc then there's absolutely nothing to stop you from
commenting your C# in the same way:

for (...)
{
if (...)
{
...
} // If
} // For

Personally I don't like it or feel any need for it, but there's nothing
stopping you from doing it if you feel it adds readability.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 17 '05 #49

P: n/a
Jon,
What about VB makes it "okay" in your view to have such deeply nested
functionality that would be abhorrent in C#? If it's that you have "End
If" "End For" etc then there's absolutely nothing to stop you from
commenting your C# in the same way:

for (...)
{
if (...)
{
...
} // If
} // For

Personally I don't like it or feel any need for it, but there's nothing
stopping you from doing it if you feel it adds readability.


I agree with you and probably will use in future your sample, which I to be
honest never thought of, however the difference is that it is at the moment
not automaticly done and as well not automaticly alligned direct when you
are busy.

However thanks for the idea

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #50

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