OT Annoying Habits (Was: when format strings attack)

[Carroll, Barry]

Greetings:

Personally, I don't think top-posting is the most annoying newsgroup
habit. I think it's making a big fuss about minor inconveniences.

One of the nicest things about being human is the amazing flexibility of
our brains. For example, if a block of text isn't arranged in the order
we're used to, we can easily rearrange it mentally and read it anyway.
Oriental and Arabic peoples, for example, do this each time they read
something written in English. It's EASY, once you get used to it!

It took me about 3 seconds to realize that Mr. D'Aprano' Q&A session was
laid out bottom-to-top instead of top-to-bottom. After that, it made
perfect sense. While it was a excellent way to demonstrate his
argument, it failed to prove his point, because, while top-to-bottom may
be the way he reads things, it isn't the way _everyone_ reads things.

So, as far as I'm concerned, post your posts in whatever manner works
for you. If it's in English, I'll figure it out. If not, well, there's
always Babelfish. ;^)

Regards,

Barry
ba***********@p sc.com
541-302-1107
_______________ _________
We who cut mere stones must always be envisioning cathedrals.

-Quarry worker's creed

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven D'Aprano [mailto:st***@RE MOVE.THIS.cyber source.com.au]
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:30 AM
To: py*********@pyt hon.org
Subject: Re: when format strings attack

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:43:53 -0800, John Zenger wrote:

Perhaps it is not as severe a security risk, but pure Python

programs

can run into similar problems if they don't check user input for %
codes.

Please don't top-post.

A: Because it messes up the order that we read things.
Q: Why?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying newsgroup habit?

Example:

>>k = raw_input("Try to trick me: ")

Try to trick me: How about %s this?

>>j = "User %s just entered: " + k
print j % "John"

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<pyshell#8 >", line 1, in ?
print j % "John"
TypeError: not enough arguments for format string

That's hardly the same sort of vulnerability the article was talking
about, but it is a potential bug waiting to bite.

In a serious application, you should keep user-inputted strings

separate

from application strings, and never use user strings unless they've

been

made safe. See Joel Spolsky's excellent article about one way of doing
that:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html

--
Steven.

[Aahz]

In article <ma************ *************** ************@py thon.org>,
Carroll, Barry <Ba***********@ psc.comwrote:

>
Personally, I don't think top-posting is the most annoying newsgroup
habit. I think it's making a big fuss about minor inconveniences. =20

Thing is, nobody will ignore your posts for following standard Usenet
conventions, but some of us will definitely ignore your posts if you
don't. It's your choice how much attention you want.
--
Aahz (aa**@pythoncra ft.com) <* http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:20:26 -0800, Carroll, Barry wrote:

It took me about 3 seconds to realize that Mr. D'Aprano' Q&A session was
laid out bottom-to-top instead of top-to-bottom. After that, it made
perfect sense.

Three seconds, compared to about thirty milliseconds if it were written in
the normal fashion. That's an inefficiency of about two orders of
magnitude. Multiply that by a few hundred news posts and emails that you
might read in a day, and, well, I think that makes it a big deal. That
means top posting is to effective communication what exchange-sort is to
quicksort.

I use the analogy advisably: just as there is overhead to quicksort that
makes it slower for sufficiently small lists, so there is overhead to
in-line posting that makes top posting easier for the reader under quite
restricted circumstances: you're reading the posts in order, and the
entire thread (or at least the relevant parts of it) are still in short
term memory.

While it was a excellent way to demonstrate his
argument, it failed to prove his point, because, while top-to-bottom may
be the way he reads things, it isn't the way _everyone_ reads things.

There are, as far as I know, no human languages that write from the
bottom of the page upwards.

But even if there are such languages, we're on an English language
newsgroup, not Martian, and so we should (whenever possibly) adapt English
conventions.

So, as far as I'm concerned, post your posts in whatever manner works
for you. If it's in English, I'll figure it out. If not, well, there's
always Babelfish. ;^)

Or perhaps I should say:

..snoitnevnoc
hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton ,puorgswen
egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve tuB

--
Steven.

[gonzlobo]

I should write a python script to read this. :)

>.snoitnevnoc
hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton ,puorgswen
egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve tuB

[Hendrik van Rooyen]

"Steven D'Aprano" <st***@REMOVE.T HIS.cybersource .com.auwrote:

Or perhaps I should say:

.snoitnevnoc
hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton ,puorgswen
egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve tuB

First I thought it was Welsh or Cornish or something.

Then it was like being in my first year of school again-
reading letter by letter. Never realised how difficult it is.

I suppose it will improve with practice.

- Hendrik

[Ben Finney]

"Hendrik van Rooyen" <ma**@microcorp .co.zawrites:

"Steven D'Aprano" <st***@REMOVE.T HIS.cybersource .com.auwrote:

.snoitnevnoc
hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton ,puorgswen
egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve tuB

First I thought it was Welsh or Cornish or something.

Then it was like being in my first year of school again-
reading letter by letter. Never realised how difficult it is.

I suppose it will improve with practice.

Alternatively, you could consider it to be an active impediment to
understanding, which, no matter how convenient it may be for the
person writing it, is against the norms of written English and
inconsiderate of the reader.

With that in mind, you might convince those who write their messages
that way to conform to the norms of written English for the sake of
communication.

--
\ "No wonder I'm all confused; one of my parents was a woman, the |
`\ other was a man." -- Ashleigh Brilliant |
_o__) |
Ben Finney

[Dane Jensen]

On Friday 19 January 2007 22:51, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote:

"Steven D'Aprano" <st***@REMOVE.T HIS.cybersource .com.auwrote:

Or perhaps I should say:

.snoitnevnoc
hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM ton
,puorgswen egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus era ereht fi neve
tuB

First I thought it was Welsh or Cornish or something.

Then it was like being in my first year of school again-
reading letter by letter. Never realised how difficult it is.

I suppose it will improve with practice.

Not to steer this topic even futher off topic, but this is something that's
been on my mind lately...

The biggest problem with it that the letters were forwards and not also
backwards (and the parens). But then, it's my understanding that as a
left-handed person, reading and writing backwards is far easier for me than
for the majority that is right-handed. Have any other lefties found that the
case?

-Dane

[rzed]

Dane Jensen <ca***@fastmail .fmwrote in
news:ma******** *************** *************** *@python.org:

On Friday 19 January 2007 22:51, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote:

>"Steven D'Aprano" <st***@REMOVE.T HIS.cybersource .com.auwrote:

Or perhaps I should say:

.snoitnevnoc
hsilgnE tpada )ylbissop revenehw( dluohs ew os dna ,naitraM
ton ,puorgswen egaugnal hsilgnE na no er'ew ,segaugnal hcus
era ereht fi neve tuB

First I thought it was Welsh or Cornish or something.

Then it was like being in my first year of school again-
reading letter by letter. Never realised how difficult it is.

I suppose it will improve with practice.

Not to steer this topic even futher off topic, but this is
something that's been on my mind lately...

The biggest problem with it that the letters were forwards and
not also backwards (and the parens). But then, it's my
understanding that as a left-handed person, reading and writing
backwards is far easier for me than for the majority that is
right-handed. Have any other lefties found that the case?

How would anybody know? As a left-hander, I have found it easy
enough to read backwards, but then, being left-handed forces a
certain habit of adaptability in any case. Maybe that makes it
easier to read backward, but that is not a task I'm often called
on to do. It takes practice regardless.

This subthread reminds me of my *highly secure* plaintext
encryption system that would render the sentence

<But even if there are such languages, we're on an English
language newsgroup, not Martian, and so we should (whenever
possibly) adapt English conventions>

as

<Sno itne vn ochsi lgn etpa daylbisso, pr'ev en eh Wdluohs
ewosdnan aitramton, puo Rgswene, gau gn al hsilgn (enanoere
wsegaugn) alhcu Seraere htfinevetub>

I think it looks vaguely Esperantonic (Esperantoid? Esperantic?),
if anything.

--
rzed